I really don't see what there is for kojiro to take offense at. He and I were having a very reasonable and constructive discussion about whether we would play Far//Away with one side only, which ultimately defines how you include it regardless of system. KBH came in and insulted people who use a particular system. Everyone got over that and went back to the discussion.
I mean, it's impossible to come here (or go to his website) and start saying that someone's system is objectively wrong. It's just not possible, because it's a totally subjective organsation system. There can be no formal logic that leads one to the conclusion that making Far//Away compete in a given section or otherwise is somehow incorrect. It isn't a gold card, a hybrid card, or a blue card. The closest way to a 'perfect' system would be to have a separate 'split' card section. But then... someone would have their panties in a twist because split and fuse cards are mixed. Or that they have different functions between each colour pair's choices. Or different CMCs. It's an infinite regression of pointlessness and pedantry.
Just use the system you like, that your cube group wants to use. Whatever lets you use the cards you want in a manner you consider fair. You can't just get frustrated because other people are using a different system. By all means, point out why you consider yours better, but there is no right and wrong here, and never, ever can be; getting 'frustrated' by this thread because people are making a certain card compete in their particular cube structure, rather than yours - it doesn't help anybody.
This was really not intended as the focus of my post, merely as an anecdotal explanation of how I chose to reply to this thread of all threads.
I agree that everyone can have the system he or she likes, especially because with the number of powerful cards we have available it is really more like seasoning to taste than running "bad cards". I also think that people really should not exclude hybrid cards like Tattermunge Maniac just because there are better RG cards available, even though they would probably play a mono red version.
I also think that people really should not exclude hybrid cards like Tattermunge Maniac just because there are better RG cards available, even though they would probably play a mono red version.
On the whole I agree with this, and I spent a very long time sticking up for that exact card despite being told by myriad posters it was uncubeable to any size, also including it in my red section! But this is not analogous to Far//Away, which doesn't have a symmetrical functionality. I'm not saying that it's wrong to include it in blue, for example, only that it is not a choice I would make, simply because I will want both the colours to play it. That was really the only disagreement kojiro and I had. It's actually a power level disagreement, not even a classification one.
This isn't the hive mind monolith some people make it out to be. Plenty of people around here (myself included) agree with some of kojiro's points, but it's not a black and white issue. It's dependent on personal experience and preference, different playgroups, different lists, etc and people will and should disagree. That doesn't mean the discussion is useless. Classification has changed a lot for me and for the forum as a whole the past few years precisely because of discussions like this. Those who don't want to participate are welcome to sit them out, but I think there's plenty of value to them.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I also think that people really should not exclude hybrid cards like Tattermunge Maniac just because there are better RG cards available, even though they would probably play a mono red version.
Nobody is doing this. I don't play Tattermunge, and I certainly wouldn't play a mono-red version. If the cube is big enough to need the extra aggro creature, you will make it fit into the Gruul section because it's the best thing for the cube.
I'm sorry if people don't agree that this card should be classified as a Dimir card, but to tweet about how frustrating it is to have people disagree with you is beyond silly.
On the whole I agree with this, and I spent a very long time sticking up for that exact card despite being told by myriad posters it was uncubeable to any size, also including it in my red section! But this is not analogous to Far//Away, which doesn't have a symmetrical functionality. I'm not saying that it's wrong to include it in blue, for example, only that it is not a choice I would make, simply because I will want both the colours to play it. That was really the only disagreement kojiro and I had. It's actually a power level disagreement, not even a classification one.
I know, that's why I chose the example. I did exclude it first because it has a green and red casting cost, now I play it as a red card and I am reasonably happy with it. As for the discussion, if it is about power level it still matters what cards it should be compared with, which is a classification thing.
This isn't the hive mind monolith some people make it out to be. Plenty of people around here (myself included) agree with some of kojiro's points, but it's not a black and white issue. It's dependent on personal experience and preference, different playgroups, different lists, etc and people will and should disagree. That doesn't mean the discussion is useless. Classification has changed a lot for me and for the forum as a whole the past few years precisely because of discussions like this. Those who don't want to participate are welcome to sit them out, but I think there's plenty of value to them.
So really, this discussion is nothing more than tiring, derailing and unconstructive and should be broken up whenever it starts messing up other threads. This crap should be kept in a single thread where anyone who doesn't want to read it doesn't have to.
I obviously don't agree on the first part, but I very much agree on the second. Sorry for my part in derailing the thread.
Nobody is doing this. I don't play Tattermunge, and I certainly wouldn't play a mono-red version. If the cube is big enough to need the extra aggro creature, you will make it fit into the Gruul section because it's the best thing for the cube.
I'm sorry if people don't agree that this card should be classified as a Dimir card, but to tweet about how frustrating it is to have people disagree with you is beyond silly.
Well I know I did exclude it for that very reason for some time, and now I still play it as a red card because having two-power one-drop is very important, I think. Also I absolutely don't think that playing it as a gruul card is best for my Cube, because I don't support green aggro.
As for the social media stuff, I'm sorry I even brought it up, but I don't agree with you. It can be very frustrating to have people disagree with you, especially if it is repeatedly on a topic you care about. Letting the world know about how you feel/what you think is what social media does, so I don't see at all why this should be silly. But no need to derail the thread in that direction as well, so again, I'm sorry I even brought it up.
Also I absolutely don't think that playing it as a gruul card is best for my Cube, because I don't support green aggro.
So for your cube, that makes sense. But it doesn't for mine. Every cube is different.
But even so, that doesn't compare to what's being discussed here. Far/Away is a card that I feel requires all of its casting options to be available in order for it to be good enough. I think it's a great card for decks with both black and blue mana available. But I think it's completely unplayable with only one of the two colors available. I'd never play it in a U/X deck or a B/X deck. So classifying it as a Dimir card makes sense for my playgroup. If you or kojiro or anyone else feels like the card will see play without access to both colors, sorting it differently would make sense for you. But I hope it's understandable why it doesn't make any sense to/for me.
The guild system classification makes Far//Away compete against cards like Baleful Strix that are only playable in decks with many blue and many black sources, even though Far//Away is a perfectly good card even if you only have a few black sources in a blue-based deck or a few blue sources in a black-based one. It is difficult to judge how much better that increased flexibility makes a card compared to the raw power and narrowness of another.
If we're selecting cards for a section based on the amount of mana sources of a given type required to play it, then one could also argue that something that costs UUBB or UUUB should have a section of its own compared to UB, or even to separate UUU from U. But assuming all 'real' gold cards are equal, it is true that they require a greater quantity of off-colour mana sources, while split cards are fine with a majority of one colour, whilst hybrids are fully functional with either colour alone. In a perfect world, each would have its own section - 'true gold', hybrid and splits - with the same number between each colour pair. But because many pairs lack good split or hybrid options, it gives me the room to include better gold cards at the expense of poor hybrid ones in certain colours or vice versa. So you can argue increased flexibility in that way. Likewise, someone else's system might allow them to exclude a weak Gruul card for a perceived stronger Golgari one. That's just flexible in a different way altogether. Each way has its strengths and weaknesses.
I don't get how people can get so frustrated about it. It just seems so obvious that there is no concrete way of being right or wrong about it, and that the difference it makes is small in any case.
A thread that annoyed Kranny so much sounded promising, and I felt the need to post somewhere that I really hope he does not abandon his quest of bringing new ideas even to a stubborn, conservative group of Cubers. I think it is safe to say that with his passionate support of new and unorthodox strategies, he made Cubing more fun for players on multiple continents.
Me too. He's a good character around this forum, and generally very open to civil discussion. I don't know what he was tweeting, but can't for the life of me see why he got all riled up about it.
Quote from Konfusius, below »
But I also do appreciate the power of this card and similar cards like Dismantling Blow. What if we would allow Dismantling Blow to be played in the white section? Far//Away could end up in the black section. Of course they are worse in comparison to Disenchant and Diabolic Edict, assuming you don't have blue in your deck. In a deck with some access to blue mana, not even much, be it five-color land, mana rock or an appropriately colored dual land, the mid-to-late-game value of the more expensive cards can be quite high. So because of color-restricted sections and the maxim that the most cost efficient card is the best card, these ideas are outright dismissed by many Cubers when in fact it is not unlikely that for a number of Cubes, depending on playgroup preferences, size and specific composition, it may well be worth considering.
Absolutely. It's been lost in the banter that this card is really pretty good and I would never dissuade anyone from testing it, wheresoever they might put it.
So for your cube, that makes sense. But it doesn't for mine. Every cube is different.
But even so, that doesn't compare to what's being discussed here. Far/Away is a card that I feel requires all of its casting options to be available in order for it to be good enough. I think it's a great card for decks with both black and blue mana available. But I think it's completely unplayable with only one of the two colors available. I'd never play it in a U/X deck or a B/X deck. So classifying it as a Dimir card makes sense for my playgroup. If you or kojiro or anyone else feels like the card will see play without access to both colors, sorting it differently would make sense for you. But I hope it's understandable why it doesn't make any sense to/for me.
Absolutely. I also think I want both black and blue available in a deck where I want to play Far//Away, so it seems I am with you on this one
But I also do appreciate the power of this card and similar cards like Dismantling Blow. What if we would allow Dismantling Blow to be played in the white section? Far//Away could end up in the black section. Of course they are worse in comparison to Disenchant and Diabolic Edict, assuming you don't have blue in your deck. In a deck with some access to blue mana, not even much, be it five-color land, mana rock or an appropriately colored dual land, the mid-to-late-game value of the more expensive cards can be quite high. So because of color-restricted sections and the maxim that the most cost efficient card is the best card, these ideas are outright dismissed by many Cubers when in fact it is not unlikely that for a number of Cubes, depending on playgroup preferences, size and specific composition, it may well be worth considering.
Saying Far//Away is not good enough for the Dimir section is one thing and I don't disagree for smaller lists. Saying Far compares unfavorably with Unsummon and Away compares unfavorably with Diabolic Edict is obviously true. If you organize your Cube the way many of us do it here, you exclude the card: if you factor in the second color it has to compete with multicolored cards, if you don't factor in the second color the benefit of having that other effect with the second color is not considered. But there is a third way: we could just not evaluate the card in that strict "either it is multicolored or monocolored"-way, decide whether or not we think the card is strong enough as a card that is a bit of both and then make room for it.
I don't have a solution for my Cube yet, but new mechanics*) force us to rethink everything we do with our Cubes, and just because a new type of card does not win against the competition in the currently existing categories does not make it too bad to play.
*)Of course, it is just kicker, in a way. But then, what isn't.
What if we would allow Dismantling Blow to be played in the white section?
But I wouldn't play it in a deck that wasn't WR, so again, that classification doesn't make sense for my playgroup. If you would play it in a deck without red mana, than it would be fine for you to classify it there.
The guild system classification makes Far//Away compete against cards like Baleful Strix that are only playable in decks with many blue and many black sources, even though Far//Away is a perfectly good card even if you only have a few black sources in a blue-based deck or a few blue sources in a black-based one.
But this isn't an obstacle that classification needs to hurdle.
Simic Sky Swallower can be splashed really easily into a 3 or 4 color deck. It's expensive, there's a low color commitment and you don't need the mana until the later stages of the game. Prime Speaker Zegana, on the other hand, needs to go into a deck that's heavy blue and heavy green because it has a much more restrictive casting cost. But that doesn't mean they're not both Simic cards for the purposes of classification. They both require blue mana and green mana in order to be drafted by you and make the cut in your final 40.
Same goes for the example I stated earlier. Carnophage and Griselbrand are both in the same section. Even though they're completely different cards. They go in opposite decks, have different casting requirements ...nothing about those cards is similar except for the fact that they both require only black mana to get full value from them. So they enjoy the view right next to each other in the black creature section. Similarly, Baleful Strix and Far // Away have quite a few things that make them different from one another. But that doesn't mean that the biggest thing they have in common is where they should be classified. Both cards won't be drafted unless my deck contains both blue and black mana. It's simple enough for me to see that they should be grouped together.
That just sounds like split card. The best way to balance it would be to make a split card section. But there's not enough of them.
The thing about Far/Away is that it's not as good as monocolor option. It NEEDS the second color to be able to have a chance of being in cube. Hence why under a guild system, it's in Dimir section. Guild system do take into consideration those things.
That way of organization sounds too complex. If you want to take those into consideration, you might as well do a "splashable" section for each color.
Correct, also, as I stated before Guild Section does not mean Gold Section. It's a place where all cards that benefit from being in decks of the corresponding guild get grouped together. Just like we do with the monocolored sections. Often times, those cards have nothing in common except being the same color.
Often times, those cards have nothing in common except being the same color.
And sometimes they don't even share that like color-aligned lands.
In the end I believe it all boils down to card evaluation. Most of the angst generated by these discussions comes from people trying to argue about card classification when they should be evaluating a card's power in regards to their cube. All cubes are different.
If a card is good(interesting, fun, [insert your reason here]) enough to include it doesn't matter if you change your system, or label a Hybrid as mono-color, or move a colored card to the colorless section, or create the Wild Nacatl section. It's finding its way to the cube.
What matters for me is not how you organize the list of cards, it's the list of cards itself.
I read through this thread because I read a tweet from Kranny. Nowadays, I only read few of the many threads here on MTGS, but I still consider it the best available resource for Cube information because contrary to articles and pod-casts that reflect the view of individuals or small groups, it is crowd-sourced information that I get here (of course I have to filter it accordingly). A thread that annoyed Kranny so much sounded promising, and I felt the need to post somewhere that I really hope he does not abandon his quest of bringing new ideas even to a stubborn, conservative group of Cubers. I think it is safe to say that with his passionate support of new and unorthodox strategies, he made Cubing more fun for players on multiple continents.
In my day, when we were frustrated we would go talk to people in real life about it I'm highly amused by the fact that someone can get so irked about their hobbies that they have to tweet about it. Meanwhile, social media gets used for revolution and real change in the rest of the world. So you'll forgive me if I find this use of social media rather hilariously misplaced. It's a game, let's try and keep in mind we all share the same passion and devotion for it before you rage-quit the discussion and go wailing to your groupies about how nobody loves your awesome ideas. I would contribute more, but I gotta go tweet about how awesome this thread is
P.S. Far/Away is far and away the best Dimir split card for cube.
So not only am I not allowed to be upset but I'm going to be mocked over it as well?
I have nothing further to add to this discussion.
I've managed to stay out of this discussion up until now. Let me just say that I think you're an asset to this forum, Kranny. You always think outside the box and are typically willing to try any card that hasn't seen play and post results on it. You put out excellent cube content and your cube is a resource for those of us looking for ideas for our own cube.
With that said, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. First of all, no one is mocking you or even being slightly rude in any way. What I've read here are two sides of the same coin. This is simply different preferences on how a cube should be organized and also how Far//Away will likely play for each poster's specific cube group. Both sides have presented well thought out arguments as to why they choose to organize a card like Far//Away the way they do.
I get that you are passionate about your hobby. I also get that it can be incredibly frustrating when it seems like you're out numbered by people who disagree with your preference. But I feel like if you were to simply stop contributing here, you would be doing the rest of us a huge disservice. Your personal preference typically goes against the grain of this forum and that's not a bad thing at all.
I don't agree with you =/= I don't love you anymore.
This should be our forum motto.
For the record, the only reason I agree with wtwlf's method is because its like 100x easier to sort the cube and categorize it. I can ask my fellow cubers to get all the red cards together etc. If I didn't have to sort it all of the time I would probably use Kojiro's method.
I feel like the major point that people have tried to make here and has somehow been skipped over a couple times is that these cubes are inherently our own. If I choose to use an organizational/categorizing method that is completely different from everyone else, that is my choice as it is my cube. Could this possibly result in drafts that are less fun or balanced or both? Sure but so long as my play group and I have no problems with it, no one else's opinion matters!
Long story short, we are never going to agree on everything so how bout we just agree on that and everyone just be friendly neighbors!
Back on topic, I'm not sure how I feel about this card. I think it's going to be better than I feel it actually is but paying 5 mana for that effect just doesn't seem exciting to me.
So not only am I not allowed to be upset but I'm going to be mocked over it as well?
I have nothing further to add to this discussion.
Dude, the only post that was mocking or insulting in the whole thread was aimed at me... and you actively thanked the user for that post. Which makes it seem like you're fine with that tone if it's not aimed at you, which it never ever was. Maybe PyreDream came a little close, but KBH's was worse, and you thanked it.
People expressed bewilderment about why you got upset in the first place, that's not the same. We want you to post here, and the original discussion between us two was actually very constructive
I thought it was a pretty good discussion, considering what it is. I didn't feel that either side was overly aggressive, and it was a fair point/counterpoint style debate.
But if you feel insulted, by all means, you don't have to continue reading the thread. But that wasn't anybody's intent.
I agree with PyreDream's sentiment, that you are overreacting, and instead of coming up with a constructive argument here, you complained about people disagreeing with you on twitter, siting this specific thread as the reason for your woes. That seems kinda silly to me, but hey, everyone's entitled to feel how they want to feel.
The basic crux of the debate is simple. Nobody is saying the card is bad. My point is that the card needs access to all three casting modes to be good, which means it will be drafted and decked as a Dimir card, regardless of how it's casted in game. You feel like because the card can be played without access to both colors, it's disingenuous to label it as a Dimir card. I would agree if I felt like either half were playable on its own. But because they're not (at least not for my playgroup) and both halves must be accessible for the spell to be considered playable, it should compete against other cards that have that same restriction.
Your input is valuable, and just because we disagree on something doesn't mean you should bow out of the discussion and go complain about it elsewhere. Stick it out and make a reasonable case for what you feel is right. If you have a good case, it's hard to disagree with it. I just don't think you have a good case in this instance. Sorry if that disappoints you, but that's just how it is.
How can I be bashed for wanting to pit Far // Away, a 1U bounce spell with two big bonuses, against Into the Roil, Cyclonic Rift, or Vapor Snag, but be told I'm incorrect for not wanting to put it up against something like Shadowmage Infiltrator or Psychatog which are completely and utterly different on every possible level?
Why is it not a 2B edict with two big bonuses instead?
That's the reason I just put these cards and hybrid in my guild-sections. It's just easier to maintain. How can you reasonably determine whether it's a Ub or a Bu card?
I'm all for a hybrid-section where this card should belong. The problem with hybrid sections is that the different color pairs have a very different number of playable hybrid or hybrid-like cards making such a section weird. It's just easier right now to have a single guild-section. In the future when we have more cards, I believe most cubers will have a multicolored section and a hybrid section.
You feel like because the card can be played without access to both colors, it's disingenuous to label it as a Dimir card. I would agree if I felt like either half were playable on its own.
What you say here is exactly how I thought about Far//Away before reading through this thread. Now I wonder why I always excluded off-color kicker/flashback/split card as a potential upside for a mono-colored card. Of course if you don't have access at all to that second color, it is most likely strictly worse than other existing cards, but on the other hand even having a single blue source could make it so that there are suddenly more situations where the Dismantling Blow kicker is more relevant than Disenchant being one mana cheaper.
I agree that everyone can have the system he or she likes, especially because with the number of powerful cards we have available it is really more like seasoning to taste than running "bad cards". I also think that people really should not exclude hybrid cards like Tattermunge Maniac just because there are better RG cards available, even though they would probably play a mono red version.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
On the whole I agree with this, and I spent a very long time sticking up for that exact card despite being told by myriad posters it was uncubeable to any size, also including it in my red section! But this is not analogous to Far//Away, which doesn't have a symmetrical functionality. I'm not saying that it's wrong to include it in blue, for example, only that it is not a choice I would make, simply because I will want both the colours to play it. That was really the only disagreement kojiro and I had. It's actually a power level disagreement, not even a classification one.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I agree with this completely but he seems deadset on making it about classification whether it is or not.
Nobody is doing this. I don't play Tattermunge, and I certainly wouldn't play a mono-red version. If the cube is big enough to need the extra aggro creature, you will make it fit into the Gruul section because it's the best thing for the cube.
I'm sorry if people don't agree that this card should be classified as a Dimir card, but to tweet about how frustrating it is to have people disagree with you is beyond silly.
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I agree with that.
I obviously don't agree on the first part, but I very much agree on the second. Sorry for my part in derailing the thread.
Well I know I did exclude it for that very reason for some time, and now I still play it as a red card because having two-power one-drop is very important, I think. Also I absolutely don't think that playing it as a gruul card is best for my Cube, because I don't support green aggro.
As for the social media stuff, I'm sorry I even brought it up, but I don't agree with you. It can be very frustrating to have people disagree with you, especially if it is repeatedly on a topic you care about. Letting the world know about how you feel/what you think is what social media does, so I don't see at all why this should be silly. But no need to derail the thread in that direction as well, so again, I'm sorry I even brought it up.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
So for your cube, that makes sense. But it doesn't for mine. Every cube is different.
But even so, that doesn't compare to what's being discussed here. Far/Away is a card that I feel requires all of its casting options to be available in order for it to be good enough. I think it's a great card for decks with both black and blue mana available. But I think it's completely unplayable with only one of the two colors available. I'd never play it in a U/X deck or a B/X deck. So classifying it as a Dimir card makes sense for my playgroup. If you or kojiro or anyone else feels like the card will see play without access to both colors, sorting it differently would make sense for you. But I hope it's understandable why it doesn't make any sense to/for me.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
If we're selecting cards for a section based on the amount of mana sources of a given type required to play it, then one could also argue that something that costs UUBB or UUUB should have a section of its own compared to UB, or even to separate UUU from U. But assuming all 'real' gold cards are equal, it is true that they require a greater quantity of off-colour mana sources, while split cards are fine with a majority of one colour, whilst hybrids are fully functional with either colour alone. In a perfect world, each would have its own section - 'true gold', hybrid and splits - with the same number between each colour pair. But because many pairs lack good split or hybrid options, it gives me the room to include better gold cards at the expense of poor hybrid ones in certain colours or vice versa. So you can argue increased flexibility in that way. Likewise, someone else's system might allow them to exclude a weak Gruul card for a perceived stronger Golgari one. That's just flexible in a different way altogether. Each way has its strengths and weaknesses.
I don't get how people can get so frustrated about it. It just seems so obvious that there is no concrete way of being right or wrong about it, and that the difference it makes is small in any case.
Me too. He's a good character around this forum, and generally very open to civil discussion. I don't know what he was tweeting, but can't for the life of me see why he got all riled up about it.
Absolutely. It's been lost in the banter that this card is really pretty good and I would never dissuade anyone from testing it, wheresoever they might put it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
But I also do appreciate the power of this card and similar cards like Dismantling Blow. What if we would allow Dismantling Blow to be played in the white section? Far//Away could end up in the black section. Of course they are worse in comparison to Disenchant and Diabolic Edict, assuming you don't have blue in your deck. In a deck with some access to blue mana, not even much, be it five-color land, mana rock or an appropriately colored dual land, the mid-to-late-game value of the more expensive cards can be quite high. So because of color-restricted sections and the maxim that the most cost efficient card is the best card, these ideas are outright dismissed by many Cubers when in fact it is not unlikely that for a number of Cubes, depending on playgroup preferences, size and specific composition, it may well be worth considering.
Saying Far//Away is not good enough for the Dimir section is one thing and I don't disagree for smaller lists. Saying Far compares unfavorably with Unsummon and Away compares unfavorably with Diabolic Edict is obviously true. If you organize your Cube the way many of us do it here, you exclude the card: if you factor in the second color it has to compete with multicolored cards, if you don't factor in the second color the benefit of having that other effect with the second color is not considered. But there is a third way: we could just not evaluate the card in that strict "either it is multicolored or monocolored"-way, decide whether or not we think the card is strong enough as a card that is a bit of both and then make room for it.
I don't have a solution for my Cube yet, but new mechanics*) force us to rethink everything we do with our Cubes, and just because a new type of card does not win against the competition in the currently existing categories does not make it too bad to play.
*)Of course, it is just kicker, in a way. But then, what isn't.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
But I wouldn't play it in a deck that wasn't WR, so again, that classification doesn't make sense for my playgroup. If you would play it in a deck without red mana, than it would be fine for you to classify it there.
But this isn't an obstacle that classification needs to hurdle.
Simic Sky Swallower can be splashed really easily into a 3 or 4 color deck. It's expensive, there's a low color commitment and you don't need the mana until the later stages of the game. Prime Speaker Zegana, on the other hand, needs to go into a deck that's heavy blue and heavy green because it has a much more restrictive casting cost. But that doesn't mean they're not both Simic cards for the purposes of classification. They both require blue mana and green mana in order to be drafted by you and make the cut in your final 40.
Same goes for the example I stated earlier. Carnophage and Griselbrand are both in the same section. Even though they're completely different cards. They go in opposite decks, have different casting requirements ...nothing about those cards is similar except for the fact that they both require only black mana to get full value from them. So they enjoy the view right next to each other in the black creature section. Similarly, Baleful Strix and Far // Away have quite a few things that make them different from one another. But that doesn't mean that the biggest thing they have in common is where they should be classified. Both cards won't be drafted unless my deck contains both blue and black mana. It's simple enough for me to see that they should be grouped together.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
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The thing about Far/Away is that it's not as good as monocolor option. It NEEDS the second color to be able to have a chance of being in cube. Hence why under a guild system, it's in Dimir section. Guild system do take into consideration those things.
That way of organization sounds too complex. If you want to take those into consideration, you might as well do a "splashable" section for each color.
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And sometimes they don't even share that like color-aligned lands.
In the end I believe it all boils down to card evaluation. Most of the angst generated by these discussions comes from people trying to argue about card classification when they should be evaluating a card's power in regards to their cube. All cubes are different.
If a card is good(interesting, fun, [insert your reason here]) enough to include it doesn't matter if you change your system, or label a Hybrid as mono-color, or move a colored card to the colorless section, or create the Wild Nacatl section. It's finding its way to the cube.
What matters for me is not how you organize the list of cards, it's the list of cards itself.
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In my day, when we were frustrated we would go talk to people in real life about it I'm highly amused by the fact that someone can get so irked about their hobbies that they have to tweet about it. Meanwhile, social media gets used for revolution and real change in the rest of the world. So you'll forgive me if I find this use of social media rather hilariously misplaced. It's a game, let's try and keep in mind we all share the same passion and devotion for it before you rage-quit the discussion and go wailing to your groupies about how nobody loves your awesome ideas. I would contribute more, but I gotta go tweet about how awesome this thread is
P.S. Far/Away is far and away the best Dimir split card for cube.
Okay, that one was terrible. Sorry, everyone.
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I might disagree with you to the point of frothy rage, but I don't see any mocking at all.
I may be missing something that was said
I tend to do that
But I think you're imagining things
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I've managed to stay out of this discussion up until now. Let me just say that I think you're an asset to this forum, Kranny. You always think outside the box and are typically willing to try any card that hasn't seen play and post results on it. You put out excellent cube content and your cube is a resource for those of us looking for ideas for our own cube.
With that said, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. First of all, no one is mocking you or even being slightly rude in any way. What I've read here are two sides of the same coin. This is simply different preferences on how a cube should be organized and also how Far//Away will likely play for each poster's specific cube group. Both sides have presented well thought out arguments as to why they choose to organize a card like Far//Away the way they do.
I get that you are passionate about your hobby. I also get that it can be incredibly frustrating when it seems like you're out numbered by people who disagree with your preference. But I feel like if you were to simply stop contributing here, you would be doing the rest of us a huge disservice. Your personal preference typically goes against the grain of this forum and that's not a bad thing at all.
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For the record, the only reason I agree with wtwlf's method is because its like 100x easier to sort the cube and categorize it. I can ask my fellow cubers to get all the red cards together etc. If I didn't have to sort it all of the time I would probably use Kojiro's method.
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Long story short, we are never going to agree on everything so how bout we just agree on that and everyone just be friendly neighbors!
Back on topic, I'm not sure how I feel about this card. I think it's going to be better than I feel it actually is but paying 5 mana for that effect just doesn't seem exciting to me.
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Dude, the only post that was mocking or insulting in the whole thread was aimed at me... and you actively thanked the user for that post. Which makes it seem like you're fine with that tone if it's not aimed at you, which it never ever was. Maybe PyreDream came a little close, but KBH's was worse, and you thanked it.
People expressed bewilderment about why you got upset in the first place, that's not the same. We want you to post here, and the original discussion between us two was actually very constructive
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But if you feel insulted, by all means, you don't have to continue reading the thread. But that wasn't anybody's intent.
I agree with PyreDream's sentiment, that you are overreacting, and instead of coming up with a constructive argument here, you complained about people disagreeing with you on twitter, siting this specific thread as the reason for your woes. That seems kinda silly to me, but hey, everyone's entitled to feel how they want to feel.
The basic crux of the debate is simple. Nobody is saying the card is bad. My point is that the card needs access to all three casting modes to be good, which means it will be drafted and decked as a Dimir card, regardless of how it's casted in game. You feel like because the card can be played without access to both colors, it's disingenuous to label it as a Dimir card. I would agree if I felt like either half were playable on its own. But because they're not (at least not for my playgroup) and both halves must be accessible for the spell to be considered playable, it should compete against other cards that have that same restriction.
Your input is valuable, and just because we disagree on something doesn't mean you should bow out of the discussion and go complain about it elsewhere. Stick it out and make a reasonable case for what you feel is right. If you have a good case, it's hard to disagree with it. I just don't think you have a good case in this instance. Sorry if that disappoints you, but that's just how it is.
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Why is it not a 2B edict with two big bonuses instead?
That's the reason I just put these cards and hybrid in my guild-sections. It's just easier to maintain. How can you reasonably determine whether it's a Ub or a Bu card?
I'm all for a hybrid-section where this card should belong. The problem with hybrid sections is that the different color pairs have a very different number of playable hybrid or hybrid-like cards making such a section weird. It's just easier right now to have a single guild-section. In the future when we have more cards, I believe most cubers will have a multicolored section and a hybrid section.
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