I run into discussions where I'm severely outnumbered on one side of an issue in the cube forum from time to time. It's usually just best to drop it IMO. I won't convince a group of people, and they won't convince me. Might as well move on with our lives without being angry.
@wtwlf123: You've actually said previously that you would never consider putting a card in an organizational section if it was more powerful elsewhere. By that logic, you shouldn't want to ever organize a split card in a single color, and I don't believe that you ever had. Why say something else in this thread? Or have you changed your mind? I remember having an argument with you about organization of hybrid and split cards before because of this.
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Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
@wtwlf123: You've actually said previously that you would never consider putting a card in an organizational section if it was more powerful elsewhere. By that logic, you shouldn't want to ever organize a split card in a single color, and I don't believe that you ever had. Why say something else in this thread?
I haven't changed my mind, and I didn't say something else. I think that this card belongs in Dimir, because that's how it drafts. Same as I've always felt.
Quote from Konfusius »
Now I wonder why I always excluded off-color kicker/flashback/split card as a potential upside for a mono-colored card.
For the same reason we always have. The card isn't good enough to be played without both colors. They should compete against other cards that have that same restriction.
Quote from bonda »
Why is it not a 2B edict with two big bonuses instead?
Because those "bonuses" are what make the card playable, and they require blue mana. Which means it's no longer drafted like a black card. It's drafted like a black/blue card.
Quote from bonda »
How can you reasonably determine whether it's a Ub or a Bu card?
This is irrelevant though. A spell that costs UUUB and a spell that costs BBBU are both Dimir cards. They should be in the same section as one another.
Like I said with the Carnophage/Griselbrand example earlier in this thread, the cards being comparable is not a prerequisite for them to share a spot in the same section.
Because those "bonuses" are what make the card playable, and they require blue mana. Which means it's no longer drafted like a black card. It's drafted like a black/blue card.
This is irrelevant though. A spell that costs UUUB and a spell that costs BBBU are both Dimir cards. They should be in the same section as one another.
Try to go back and read my post again... I think you misread it.
I agree this card should be in the UB section and I'm just saying that it's neither a Ub or a Bu card - how would you determine which one of the two it is? It might be in some UXb or BXu decks, but most of the time it will be a UB card. Thus it should be in the UB section.
I think I might be enough of a lout to start petitioning the two Cube-Lords (TM) I play with to use it in their black section.
I remember having 2 edicts back in the day was great and this one kinda turns itself into Barrin's Spite with the smallest amount of blue. I also have trouble living in the ideal world when drafting. There are lots of times I'll be elated to have half a really good card because my draft world didn't turn out the way I though or I took a more wait and see approach.
The name of his card reminds me of the Enya song "Book of Days" which bears the subtitle (and oft repeated lyric) "Far and Away". Having this Ohrwurm lodged in my skull would be bad enough, but it is not the voice of the ex-Clannad singer I hear, rather that of my best friend who would sing the song loudly and raucously because he knew precisely how much it annoyed me. For this reason, and this reason alone, I have no intention of letting this card anywhere near my cube.
But if I were to run it, I'd run it in my unbalanced guild section.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Dimir is a very strange colour pair in the cube. As good as Dimir is now - which is IMO very good - there is actually not a single Dimir card that I would make someone play in their cube, i.e. which I would consider obligatory like Ajani Vengeant or Vindicate for example.
I find Finkel, Seer and 'Tog awesome, but there are many for whom that is not the case. Particularly the first two which are pretty dependent on the existence of U/x tempo. If your cube doesn't support that, then they won't be all that great. I love 'Tog, but I've learned to accept that some players just don't rate him for whatever reason. Tezz 2.0 is kind of niche support for artifact decks. Again, not all groups want that. Baleful Strix is universally pretty damn good, but some groups might want more exciting impact from a gold card. Signet is good, but hardly necessary. Far//Away is another universally good card, but certainly tempo-oriented.
I could see two 450 card cubes with entirely different Dimir lists, with different focuses. I think that's great for the health of cubes.
Had a few drafts with it in the mix and it has been very good. Typically fused but saw it used for the single modes a few times. Kinda reminds me of a better Jilt, but with more flexibility.
That's true. Not usually card advantage is what I meant. Bouncing a creature and edicting another isn't card advantage unless one of them was a token that's worth a card to remove. There are pretty much no auras that you can generate CA against, and the combat tricks are pretty much just as rarely seen in cube. But saving one of your creatures from removal is a relevant way to use this for card advantage, thanks for clarifying that for me.
I think I will try it out. I am often bouncing creatures in double blocks. or my creature in response to removal, or for etb effects. Isn't they why everyone plays bounce. I like them in my tempo decks for the well .... Tempo, but most times these get played in a way to get card some sort of card parity and so when you stack an edict on it you get advantage.
After playing a U/B deck this weekend I would have gotten massive use out of this card. I will probably try it our over Dimir charm. My main fear is that is is kind of a me too card in the blue black suite and not better/more special than what I am already running. I like cyclonic rift, I like chainer's edict. But do I need more?
And of course this is disgusting with Lliana of the Veil, but what isn't?
I like cyclonic rift, I like chainer's edict. But do I need more?
I think having a few different versions of a basic effect (and blue bounce and black edicts are such basic effects) in a highlander format like cube is a good source of stability/reliability. Having a few cards with the same effect that are all slightly different helps with drafting and building a reliable deck withougt being boring.
I think I might cut Havengul Lich for this card. For some reason I thought both sides cost 3. It's definitely better than I thought. Do you guys think that is a fair swap?
@wtwlf123: You've actually said previously that you would never consider putting a card in an organizational section if it was more powerful elsewhere. By that logic, you shouldn't want to ever organize a split card in a single color, and I don't believe that you ever had. Why say something else in this thread? Or have you changed your mind? I remember having an argument with you about organization of hybrid and split cards before because of this.
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I haven't changed my mind, and I didn't say something else. I think that this card belongs in Dimir, because that's how it drafts. Same as I've always felt.
For the same reason we always have. The card isn't good enough to be played without both colors. They should compete against other cards that have that same restriction.
Because those "bonuses" are what make the card playable, and they require blue mana. Which means it's no longer drafted like a black card. It's drafted like a black/blue card.
This is irrelevant though. A spell that costs UUUB and a spell that costs BBBU are both Dimir cards. They should be in the same section as one another.
Like I said with the Carnophage/Griselbrand example earlier in this thread, the cards being comparable is not a prerequisite for them to share a spot in the same section.
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Try to go back and read my post again... I think you misread it.
I agree this card should be in the UB section and I'm just saying that it's neither a Ub or a Bu card - how would you determine which one of the two it is? It might be in some UXb or BXu decks, but most of the time it will be a UB card. Thus it should be in the UB section.
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Ahh ok.
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I remember having 2 edicts back in the day was great and this one kinda turns itself into Barrin's Spite with the smallest amount of blue. I also have trouble living in the ideal world when drafting. There are lots of times I'll be elated to have half a really good card because my draft world didn't turn out the way I though or I took a more wait and see approach.
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But if I were to run it, I'd run it in my unbalanced guild section.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Duskmantle Seer
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
5 Baleful Strix
6 Dimir Signet
And then Far // Away would be right after that suite.
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I find Finkel, Seer and 'Tog awesome, but there are many for whom that is not the case. Particularly the first two which are pretty dependent on the existence of U/x tempo. If your cube doesn't support that, then they won't be all that great. I love 'Tog, but I've learned to accept that some players just don't rate him for whatever reason. Tezz 2.0 is kind of niche support for artifact decks. Again, not all groups want that. Baleful Strix is universally pretty damn good, but some groups might want more exciting impact from a gold card. Signet is good, but hardly necessary. Far//Away is another universally good card, but certainly tempo-oriented.
I could see two 450 card cubes with entirely different Dimir lists, with different focuses. I think that's great for the health of cubes.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Absolutely. More playables is always a good thing. It gives us more reasonable choices, which adds guild flexibility and diversity.
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Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I like him so much. If I'm playing UB, I'm maindecking Finkel.
Seer is aggro/tempo exclusive. But good lord is he godly in that deck.
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Finkel
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There is a very high chance that the charm is out and this is in, at least for a while.
YEAAAH.
Anyway, I do plan on adding this to my lesser-powered cube.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
After playing a U/B deck this weekend I would have gotten massive use out of this card. I will probably try it our over Dimir charm. My main fear is that is is kind of a me too card in the blue black suite and not better/more special than what I am already running. I like cyclonic rift, I like chainer's edict. But do I need more?
And of course this is disgusting with Lliana of the Veil, but what isn't?
I think having a few different versions of a basic effect (and blue bounce and black edicts are such basic effects) in a highlander format like cube is a good source of stability/reliability. Having a few cards with the same effect that are all slightly different helps with drafting and building a reliable deck withougt being boring.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG