FYI, I know many people in the boardgaming community that will happily proxy up a boardgame to try it out. If they like it, they buy it. There are of course games with so many strange pieces that it is basically impossible to do that but ya know how it goes. I dont know people that just use the proxy forever, unless the game is out of print. I "proxy" a several units, some terrain, and items in Heroscape since it is out of print and basically impossible to find. (Like Magic, my real collection is many hundreds of dollars too... I have a problem.)
Just out of curiosity Ant, do you only hate proxies of in-print sets? Since my buying a Tundra does not in anyway help WotC or any designers, as it is 100% secondary market.
I don't really agree with Ant's assessment of proxies in Cube, because when it comes to Cube the community has just as much a stake in the format's success as WoTC. Cube is a casual format created (and actively maintained by) its community; WoTC is (only incidentally) a provider of the cards.
If WoTC is allowed to capitalize on Cube via MTGO (as they've capitalized on other community-created formats, such as EDH), I think cubers, who only bolster the popularity of Magic anyways, are justified in proxying anything they want in the format they created and helped evolve.
I don't like the feel of proxies, because they feel fake so I don't use them.
I know most of anything about the voice has been said but can we stick these discussions in their own threads? I'm sure a new cuber thinking about proxying would appreciate that more then searching through random cards like VoR for stuff like that, or not finding pertinent info.
The Dragon's Maze card with the biggest impact on Modern this weekend was undoubtedly Voice of Resurgence, a creature so good that Sam Pardee actively wished he had made room for a full four copies in his Melira-Pod deck. And this is coming from the player who is, after this weekend, unquestionably the greatest Modern Birthing Pod player on the planet!
Voice of Resurgence does a lot of work for only two mana. It forces decks to play on its terms, makes removal hurt a little less, and leaves behind a sometimes nasty threat when it is sacrificed to things like a Birthing Pod activation. The green-white creature, thanks to its effectiveness in the Birthing Pod archetype, has proven itself to be the breakout card of Dragon's Maze for the Modern format.
I just want to reiterate what I said previously about the price of this card isn't going to be coming down anytime soon, or ever.
Not many cards make it to 4x status in modern, not to mention serious appeal in every other format to casual and competitive magic players alike. and when its a mythic from a 3rd set, watch out, the price could skyrocket.
If WoTC is allowed to capitalize on Cube via MTGO (as they've capitalized on other community-created formats, such as EDH), I think cubers, who only bolster the popularity of Magic anyways, are justified in proxying anything they want in the format they created and helped evolve.
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but there isn't any justification for stealing. 'I spend enough on Magic already', 'Cubing opens the door to spend on Magic when I otherwise wouldn't have' or 'Cubers make the game more popular' aren't valid reasons. Whatever else is going on in your life, it's still stealing.*
*Assuming proxing cards long-term is stealing. I don't know enough about copyright infringement law.
In addition, people who claim Wizards makes no money on the secondary market is simply wrong. Do you know who buys a large portion of sealed product? Online stores - who then open up the boxes to sell singles on the secondary market. The reason they do this is because singles sell really well. Every time you buy a single from an online store, know that they bought excess sealed product from Wizards because they knew consumers would be buying singles.
Hypothetically, if every single person who wanted singles for a casual format proxied, it might cause big online retailers to buy less sealed product from Wizards when the next set comes out. Wizards then loses money because of the secondary market.
Taken to an extreme example of course, but what happens when too many people proxy and Wizards is forced to close its doors? Will you still claim you're 'as vested in the format' as Wizards? 'They make enough money as it is' or 'Other people buy product so I shouldn't have to' doesn't seem like great logic.
/endrant
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Everyone, let's get back to the the thread's topic. As interesting as the debate on proxy ethics/morality may be, it's pretty far tangent from whether Voice of Resurgence warrants inclusion in cube decks.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Everyone, let's get back to the the thread's topic. As interesting as the debate on proxy ethics/morality may be, it's pretty far tangent from whether Voice of Resurgence warrants inclusion in cube decks.
We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
Yeah, but no-one seems to care enough to start a thread (even though I have a feeling there is one from a couple of years back hiding somewhere on page 42).
I can't say I have much Voice stories when I play him. But when he is played against me, I knows how much pressure he is. Here's some thoughts of mine when he is play against me.
There's a reason Searing Spear is great and Volcanic Hammer is not. Having my spells turns to be like that unless I give my opponents token is horrible. The token itself isn't something you can underestimate either. There's a reason the card version of that token cost 3 mana.
Voice is a 2 mana card that draw removal to him. That's great for 2 mana.
We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
We tend to try to let discussions meander naturally, since tangents tend to tie back in or be otherwise helpful. So it's often a matter of "last time I looked in on that thread, it was a little off topic, but nothing problematic... OH HOLY MOTHER OF GOD".
Clicking the report button when things go a bit too far askew is really helpful for us.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Haven't playtested this card at all, anyone want to share some stories on Voice?
I had a blue drafter tell me it was really frustrating to play against because it's such a hoser to the type of game blue likes to play. I'm okay with that. It's actually amazing against a lot of decks. Start paying attention to how often having your instants be sorceries would suck, and you'll be able to see the impact this guy can have for 2 mana.
Not only that, but you get an insane power/cost ratio spread out over 2 threats if nothing else. It's great.
Haven't playtested this card at all, anyone want to share some stories on Voice?
Very good; nice value guy that works well in most WG decks (had it work very well in a Naya Zoo last week which frequently had it threatening to become a 5/5 if it died.) Tends to leave a larger body than it has when it's alive. Dumb vs blue but that's a given.
I think I'll be taking out dryad militant for this guy. Control seems to be too good in my cube, this will help against it, even if just slightly
Sure, comparing the cards once they are in play, it makes sense to say that Voice will help more against control than Militant.
But if you take into consideration the casting cost, and therefore playability and maindeck percentage, I think Dryad Militant is a better anti-control card than Voice.
Think about it this way, Militant will almost always be drafted and will almost always make the maindeck. It's an aggro one drop which is critical for aggro decks to beat control decks.
Voice of Resurgence will sometimes table and will not always make the maindeck.
This is because there will ALWAYS be a white OR green player at the table, but there will only SOMETIMES be a white AND green player at the table.
Showed up in its first draft and was a bit of a star for that two mana investment. It gave me a 3/3 on dying that became a 5/5 a turn later. That's just insane for two mana. I also suspected that my opponent avoided playing a counterspell as a result of its ability. Colour me impressed already, and I didn't see Selesnya getting cracked into for a while.
The best bit is it's playable in pretty much any deck, in any matchup - it's great against control and even a 2/2 persist is very useful against aggro.
I think in a cube small enough where they'd be pitted up against each other (360 or smaller) I think there's a lot of options for other disenchant/naturalize effects, and not much else that can do what Voice does.
I'd have moved Dryad to white as W/x aggro shows up a lot more than G/x here. But given that I'd have put Finks in green for all those G/x midrange decks the net result would be much the same.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
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Just out of curiosity Ant, do you only hate proxies of in-print sets? Since my buying a Tundra does not in anyway help WotC or any designers, as it is 100% secondary market.
If WoTC is allowed to capitalize on Cube via MTGO (as they've capitalized on other community-created formats, such as EDH), I think cubers, who only bolster the popularity of Magic anyways, are justified in proxying anything they want in the format they created and helped evolve.
some people hate proxies.
No one will murder you for running proxies.
I don't like the feel of proxies, because they feel fake so I don't use them.
I know most of anything about the voice has been said but can we stick these discussions in their own threads? I'm sure a new cuber thinking about proxying would appreciate that more then searching through random cards like VoR for stuff like that, or not finding pertinent info.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
1. Voice of Resurgence
The Dragon's Maze card with the biggest impact on Modern this weekend was undoubtedly Voice of Resurgence, a creature so good that Sam Pardee actively wished he had made room for a full four copies in his Melira-Pod deck. And this is coming from the player who is, after this weekend, unquestionably the greatest Modern Birthing Pod player on the planet!
Voice of Resurgence does a lot of work for only two mana. It forces decks to play on its terms, makes removal hurt a little less, and leaves behind a sometimes nasty threat when it is sacrificed to things like a Birthing Pod activation. The green-white creature, thanks to its effectiveness in the Birthing Pod archetype, has proven itself to be the breakout card of Dragon's Maze for the Modern format.
I just want to reiterate what I said previously about the price of this card isn't going to be coming down anytime soon, or ever.
Not many cards make it to 4x status in modern, not to mention serious appeal in every other format to casual and competitive magic players alike. and when its a mythic from a 3rd set, watch out, the price could skyrocket.
*Assuming proxing cards long-term is stealing. I don't know enough about copyright infringement law.
In addition, people who claim Wizards makes no money on the secondary market is simply wrong. Do you know who buys a large portion of sealed product? Online stores - who then open up the boxes to sell singles on the secondary market. The reason they do this is because singles sell really well. Every time you buy a single from an online store, know that they bought excess sealed product from Wizards because they knew consumers would be buying singles.
Hypothetically, if every single person who wanted singles for a casual format proxied, it might cause big online retailers to buy less sealed product from Wizards when the next set comes out. Wizards then loses money because of the secondary market.
Taken to an extreme example of course, but what happens when too many people proxy and Wizards is forced to close its doors? Will you still claim you're 'as vested in the format' as Wizards? 'They make enough money as it is' or 'Other people buy product so I shouldn't have to' doesn't seem like great logic.
/endrant
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We could use this in about half a dozen threads right now.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Yeah, but no-one seems to care enough to start a thread (even though I have a feeling there is one from a couple of years back hiding somewhere on page 42).
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There's a reason Searing Spear is great and Volcanic Hammer is not. Having my spells turns to be like that unless I give my opponents token is horrible. The token itself isn't something you can underestimate either. There's a reason the card version of that token cost 3 mana.
Voice is a 2 mana card that draw removal to him. That's great for 2 mana.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
We tend to try to let discussions meander naturally, since tangents tend to tie back in or be otherwise helpful. So it's often a matter of "last time I looked in on that thread, it was a little off topic, but nothing problematic... OH HOLY MOTHER OF GOD".
Clicking the report button when things go a bit too far askew is really helpful for us.
/ducks out before he derails the thread further
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إن سرقت إسرق جمل
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I had a blue drafter tell me it was really frustrating to play against because it's such a hoser to the type of game blue likes to play. I'm okay with that. It's actually amazing against a lot of decks. Start paying attention to how often having your instants be sorceries would suck, and you'll be able to see the impact this guy can have for 2 mana.
Not only that, but you get an insane power/cost ratio spread out over 2 threats if nothing else. It's great.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Very good; nice value guy that works well in most WG decks (had it work very well in a Naya Zoo last week which frequently had it threatening to become a 5/5 if it died.) Tends to leave a larger body than it has when it's alive. Dumb vs blue but that's a given.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
What are you running? I rank dryad #2 card in this as #3.
I'll at least move dryad to white over Lion and Vanguard. This is a better card than those.
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Sure, comparing the cards once they are in play, it makes sense to say that Voice will help more against control than Militant.
But if you take into consideration the casting cost, and therefore playability and maindeck percentage, I think Dryad Militant is a better anti-control card than Voice.
Think about it this way, Militant will almost always be drafted and will almost always make the maindeck. It's an aggro one drop which is critical for aggro decks to beat control decks.
Voice of Resurgence will sometimes table and will not always make the maindeck.
This is because there will ALWAYS be a white OR green player at the table, but there will only SOMETIMES be a white AND green player at the table.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
The best bit is it's playable in pretty much any deck, in any matchup - it's great against control and even a 2/2 persist is very useful against aggro.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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I moved Kitchen Finks to white and Dryad Militant to green to make room.
I'd have moved Dryad to white as W/x aggro shows up a lot more than G/x here. But given that I'd have put Finks in green for all those G/x midrange decks the net result would be much the same.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass