That makes it cubable for me in itself as Disenchant is a staple in my world.
I think Disenchant is a staple too. But it's a staple because it's great in every white deck. If the effect was limited to only going in one specific color combination, it kills the reason why it's good.
Quote from bondafong »
I don't think there's 9 better WR cards printed (yet)
Plus there's Soltari Guerrillas, Goblin Trenches and probably a few other cards too. Maybe it's more like 12-13 cards that are better for the cube. Perhaps even more than that.
Quote from Macius »
@wtwlf: I know you need no convincing, but to illustrate.
Ya, I know. I think Ral is probably the best Izzet card for the cube now.
Actually, it's a very playable, powerful card. It's probably not exciting enough for most to run in their R/W sections, but I know it would see MD play in most drafts in my cube if for some reason I were to include it in my R/W section. I just don't think any R/W section is large enough to want to play it, but that doesn't mean it's a poor card.
People in glass houses and all that.
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I like Stonecloker more. It hoses graveyards, has a 3rd power, has evasion and is only one color. The Deputy is an interesting Plaxmanta variant, but I don't think it's good enough for the cube.
I like Stonecloker more. It hoses graveyards, has a 3rd power, has evasion and is only one color. The Deputy is an interesting Plaxmanta variant, but I don't think it's good enough for the cube.
Agreed. And both Stonecloaker and Plaxmanta, despite being favorites of mine, are ultimately not sticking around in my cube anymore. I don't see Deputy doing anything different.
Why not just play Whitemane Lion? The only difference (besides casting cost) is that deputy can just be a 2 cmc 2/2 flash with no drawback, whereas whitemane would require you to return him back to hand. He's certainly worse than the top UW cards now.
I contemplated Wear//Tear over Orim's Thunder - the mana difference is significant, but I think it's rare to have both artifact AND enchantment in play at the same time and more likely to have artifact or enchantment AND creature in play.
Also, where does Melek rank among Niv 1.0 and Hypersonic Dragon? UR will run at most, what 10-12 instant/sorceries? Likely many of those cantrips/card draw/burn. The question is if the copy effect is bonkers enough to outweigh the <25% chance to reveal a instant/sorc. Casting 6 mana for a 2/4 with no ETB effect is pretty disappointing. You basically need to be able to untap before you can start abusing the top of the library. I still like Niv 1.0 more, but maybe Melek is better than Hypersonic Dragon which is rather unexciting.
Don't agree with the powerful part at all. Playable is a fine definition, however.
It's probably not exciting enough for most to run in their R/W sections, but I know it would see MD play in most drafts in my cube if for some reason I were to include it in my R/W section. I just don't think any R/W section is large enough to want to play it, but that doesn't mean it's a poor card.
Shock and shatter would likely see play too if you downgraded your sections enough to include them. You can only with the cards available, so if those are your available cards, you wind up playing them. Doesn't make them good enough to see play in lots of Cubes.
People in glass houses and all that.
Care to elaborate? I'd love to hear why you felt the need to include this negative comment, which appears to be aimed at me.
Don't agree with the powerful part at all. Playable is a fine definition, however.
It is powerful. It will see play in many formats. If your definition of 'powerful' differs from mine, which is entirely possible seeing as it is largely subjective, then we don't have a topic we can usefully discuss. Let's move on.
Shock and shatter would likely see play too if you downgraded your sections enough to include them.
I would never ignore better burn effects or artifact kill effects for these cards, but of course they would be playable in that situation. My point regarding the potential usefulness of W/T is that is can kill either type of target, or both, and only requires a single colour of mana. That's pretty cool if you want that effect. Saying it "sucks", that the color combo is "WAAAAAAY too deep" (six A's and Caps Lock, no less) and that it's "garbage", is the exact kind of hyperbole we can do without. It's negative and I try to call people out on this behaviour where possible.
You can only with the cards available, so if those are your available cards, you wind up playing them. Doesn't make them good enough to see play in lots of Cubes.
Eh? It's nothing to do with available cards. If someone needs 7-8 cards in their R/W section, and they feel lacking for targeted effects of this kind, then I wouldn't complain about this card being in their scopes for selection. With every card ever available, or not. I never said it should see play in "lots of cubes". It probably isn't good enough to see play in a huge number. It is, however, good enough to see play in some cubes, in my opinion. That makes it worthy of discussion in the cube forum. If you disagree with that statement, i.e. you think that it should not see play in any cubes, then that should form the crux of our discussion - without any hyperbole.
I try to think beyond my own cube list when discussing new cards. Otherwise, why post outside our own cube threads? I hope that constructive discussion on newly spoiled cards is useful to someone. If not, someone tell me otherwise so I can stop posting.
Care to elaborate? I'd love to hear why you felt the need to include this negative comment, which appears to be aimed at me.
Sure. I'm saying there are a glut of cards you have defended in the past that I don't consider very strong or widely playable. However, I would never tell you that they "suck", are "garbage" or anything of the sort. I'll just say why I don't think they are good, or why I prefer other options, and move along. It wasn't a dig at you personally - why would I? - and I would hope you'd have realised that.
Well, this is a cube forum. So if no cubes want to play it, that's not really an endorsement for calling it a good card either.
I misspoke (miss-typed?). I did not mean that no R/W section at all would consider it. I meant to include the disclaimer 'regular-sized' or some such in there. On the contrary, I would consider this quite strongly at larger sizes. Of course these effects depend on the composition and needs of your other sections, so it would be list-dependent.
It is powerful. It will see play in many formats. If your definition of 'powerful' differs from mine...
Well dude, seeing play in other formats doesn't mean the card is good for the cube. You said it yourself: "I just don't think any R/W section is large enough to want to play it." That doesn't sound like a "powerful" card to me.
Your definition of powerful includes cards that no cubes will want to play. Maybe it differs from everyone else's definition of powerful?
I have to agree with Antknee here. We discuss cube in this forum. I wouldn't play this in any cube. Therefore, I consider it a terrible cube card.
Well dude, seeing play in other formats doesn't mean the card is good for the cube. You said it yourself: "I just don't think any R/W section is large enough to want to play it." That doesn't sound like a "powerful" card to me.
Your definition of powerful includes cards that no cubes will want to play. Maybe it differs from everyone else's definition of powerful?
I have to agree with Antknee here. We discuss cube in this forum. I wouldn't play this in any cube. Therefore, I consider it a terrible cube card.
Did you not read this bit:
I misspoke (miss-typed?). I did not mean that no R/W section at all would consider it. I meant to include the disclaimer 'regular-sized' or some such in there. On the contrary, I would consider this quite strongly at larger sizes. Of course these effects depend on the composition and needs of your other sections, so it would be list-dependent.
Please don't jump on something I did not intend to say. I've stipulated that I miswrote that particular statement.
We discuss cube in this forum, and I would consider this in certain cube lists. If you want to play semantics with me, at least don't use a small subsect of my text that I've pointed out - twice now - that I miss-wrote. That doesn't make you look good, and it doesn't make me look good. Not cool.
I stand by everything I said to Antknee, which was basically as a result of me attempting to discourage (very negative) hyperbole about new cards.
Please don't jump on something I did not intend to say.
Your edit wasn't in there when I wrote that. So for all I knew, you still meant what you said.
Quote from Goodking »
I would consider this quite strongly at larger sizes.
I don't agree. At all. There's no way I'd add this to a cube. Not even a big one. Duergar Hedge-Mage makes this card look bad. And Hedge-Mage isn't even a top 7 card for its guild! Same with Orim's Thunder; another card I think is better by a pretty fair amount. It's barely better than a Disenchant in decks that have regular access to both colors. It can only be played in a fraction of the decks that Disenchant can, and the opportunities for it to be better are few and far between ...making it a FAR worse card, IMO. Not the kind of card I'd be remotely considering cubing at any size.
I consider it for my cube, so that makes one atleast.
But let's move on in good order - we can maybe all agree that this card is a strictly better disenchant at best (in a deck where all lands are plateaus). At worst it's a 15th pick card that aren't drafted.
I also think everyone including me and Goodking that are the (devils) advocates on this card, can agree this aren't the most exciting card, even if it proves good enough in larger cubes.
It will however replace my Modern Boros sideboard disenchants for sure... Lets hope we get some more exciting cards tomorrow.
Ya, in constructed Boros decks, it's better than Disenchant.
You also have the biggest cube with the most Boros slots. Makes it a lot easier to consider cards when you have 9 slots deep per guild. Personally, I still don't think it makes it in.
In the past, I've made my apologies to others when I've mistakenly done the same. But it's an easy mistake to make.
I don't agree. At all. There's no way I'd add this to a cube. Not even a big one. Duergar Hedge-Mage makes this card look bad. And Hedge-Mage isn't even a top 7 card for its guild! Same with Orim's Thunder; another card I think is better by a pretty fair amount. It's barely better than a Disenchant in decks that have regular access to both colors. It can only be played in a fraction of the decks that Disenchant can, and the opportunities for it to be better are few and far between ...making it a FAR worse card, IMO. Not the kind of card I'd be remotely considering cubing at any size.
That's honestly fine. That's your opinion. As for me, I possibly prefer it to Thunder. I'd have to look at it closely vs. Hedge-Mage. That means it would be on my radar at about the same number of cards as the latter. If you differ on it that's fine.
You see how this constructive discussion is better than Antknee's original comment? That is what was my issue here. Am I not within my right to form an argument for the card seeing as I consider it might interest someone in the face of silly comments about 'sucks' and 'garbage'? Of course I am. You actually seem offended that I'd dare to defend the card. I don't know whether that's some kind of subconscious appeal to ridicule or what, but that's how it comes across.
Basically, here's the bottom line: I tried to call someone on being overly negative on a card that I consider to have some applications. He thinks it's bad, you think it's bad too. That's fine, and is part of cube discussion. I'm trying to do away with comments like those Antknee made, which just aren't constructive; I'm not singling him out here, and AA is a quality contributor to this forum most of the time. I just don't want newer forum users being put off defending, or picking a card, as a result of that sort of approach to spoilers.
Let's just all talk about how good Ral Zarek is. If we all agree on something, nothing can go wrong. And on that note, I'm long overdue to go to bed. "Someone is wrong on the internet!"
For what it's worth, I wouldn't run it at 720 either. Duergar Hedge-Maze is the kind of 2-for-1 I'm looking for in a guild that is quite probably the purest aggro combination in cube. Hull Breach got cut several sets back (I believe when Huntmaster showed up) and I think Orim's Thunder is barely good enough to hang on in pauper.
But yeah, having to deal with peeps just jumping into threads with one-line posts about how garbage a card is? What is this, the rumor mill?
But hey, one day in and it's already 1 card staple. That's much better than Gatecrash. That's 50% quantity of my GTC addition (Boros Charm+Experiment One), and also a tons more expensive already.
I think Orim's Thunder is barely good enough to hang on in pauper.
This isn't entirely fair to the card, because disenchant effects aren't nearly as strong in pauper than in normal cubes. When the most troublesome artifacts behind Serrated Arrows are Bonesplitter and Vulshok Morningstar and a rather high portion of decks don't run a single target, these effects don't demand to be played in nearly the same way as they do in rare cubes.
This isn't entirely fair to the card, because disenchant effects aren't nearly as strong in pauper than in normal cubes. When the most troublesome artifacts behind Serrated Arrows are Bonesplitter and Vulshok Morningstar and a rather high portion of decks don't run a single target, these effects don't demand to be played in nearly the same way as they do in rare cubes.
Good point. The equipment section of most rare cubes is reason enough to make disenchant/shatter effects powerful. Once you add in utility artifacts and creatures, creatures like Manic Vandal start to become staples next to objectively more powerful cards.
I think Disenchant is a staple too. But it's a staple because it's great in every white deck. If the effect was limited to only going in one specific color combination, it kills the reason why it's good.
Plus there's Soltari Guerrillas, Goblin Trenches and probably a few other cards too. Maybe it's more like 12-13 cards that are better for the cube. Perhaps even more than that.
Ya, I know. I think Ral is probably the best Izzet card for the cube now.
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People in glass houses and all that.
Mods: Can we keep card discussion in separate threads for each card? It's easier that way to return to earlier discussions.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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EDIT: Enemy three-colour Fuse cards would be a wonderful addition to some cubes. We have allied trio ones already spoiled, so fingers crossed.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Agreed. And both Stonecloaker and Plaxmanta, despite being favorites of mine, are ultimately not sticking around in my cube anymore. I don't see Deputy doing anything different.
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I contemplated Wear//Tear over Orim's Thunder - the mana difference is significant, but I think it's rare to have both artifact AND enchantment in play at the same time and more likely to have artifact or enchantment AND creature in play.
Also, where does Melek rank among Niv 1.0 and Hypersonic Dragon? UR will run at most, what 10-12 instant/sorceries? Likely many of those cantrips/card draw/burn. The question is if the copy effect is bonkers enough to outweigh the <25% chance to reveal a instant/sorc. Casting 6 mana for a 2/4 with no ETB effect is pretty disappointing. You basically need to be able to untap before you can start abusing the top of the library. I still like Niv 1.0 more, but maybe Melek is better than Hypersonic Dragon which is rather unexciting.
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I prefer all 4 big Izzet dragons to Melek.
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Don't agree with the powerful part at all. Playable is a fine definition, however.
Shock and shatter would likely see play too if you downgraded your sections enough to include them. You can only with the cards available, so if those are your available cards, you wind up playing them. Doesn't make them good enough to see play in lots of Cubes.
Care to elaborate? I'd love to hear why you felt the need to include this negative comment, which appears to be aimed at me.
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Well, this is a cube forum. So if no cubes want to play it, that's not really an endorsement for calling it a good card either.
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It is powerful. It will see play in many formats. If your definition of 'powerful' differs from mine, which is entirely possible seeing as it is largely subjective, then we don't have a topic we can usefully discuss. Let's move on.
I would never ignore better burn effects or artifact kill effects for these cards, but of course they would be playable in that situation. My point regarding the potential usefulness of W/T is that is can kill either type of target, or both, and only requires a single colour of mana. That's pretty cool if you want that effect. Saying it "sucks", that the color combo is "WAAAAAAY too deep" (six A's and Caps Lock, no less) and that it's "garbage", is the exact kind of hyperbole we can do without. It's negative and I try to call people out on this behaviour where possible.
Eh? It's nothing to do with available cards. If someone needs 7-8 cards in their R/W section, and they feel lacking for targeted effects of this kind, then I wouldn't complain about this card being in their scopes for selection. With every card ever available, or not. I never said it should see play in "lots of cubes". It probably isn't good enough to see play in a huge number. It is, however, good enough to see play in some cubes, in my opinion. That makes it worthy of discussion in the cube forum. If you disagree with that statement, i.e. you think that it should not see play in any cubes, then that should form the crux of our discussion - without any hyperbole.
I try to think beyond my own cube list when discussing new cards. Otherwise, why post outside our own cube threads? I hope that constructive discussion on newly spoiled cards is useful to someone. If not, someone tell me otherwise so I can stop posting.
Sure. I'm saying there are a glut of cards you have defended in the past that I don't consider very strong or widely playable. However, I would never tell you that they "suck", are "garbage" or anything of the sort. I'll just say why I don't think they are good, or why I prefer other options, and move along. It wasn't a dig at you personally - why would I? - and I would hope you'd have realised that.
I hope that clarified what was meant
I misspoke (miss-typed?). I did not mean that no R/W section at all would consider it. I meant to include the disclaimer 'regular-sized' or some such in there. On the contrary, I would consider this quite strongly at larger sizes. Of course these effects depend on the composition and needs of your other sections, so it would be list-dependent.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Well dude, seeing play in other formats doesn't mean the card is good for the cube. You said it yourself: "I just don't think any R/W section is large enough to want to play it." That doesn't sound like a "powerful" card to me.
Your definition of powerful includes cards that no cubes will want to play. Maybe it differs from everyone else's definition of powerful?
I have to agree with Antknee here. We discuss cube in this forum. I wouldn't play this in any cube. Therefore, I consider it a terrible cube card.
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Did you not read this bit:
Please don't jump on something I did not intend to say. I've stipulated that I miswrote that particular statement.
We discuss cube in this forum, and I would consider this in certain cube lists. If you want to play semantics with me, at least don't use a small subsect of my text that I've pointed out - twice now - that I miss-wrote. That doesn't make you look good, and it doesn't make me look good. Not cool.
I stand by everything I said to Antknee, which was basically as a result of me attempting to discourage (very negative) hyperbole about new cards.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Your edit wasn't in there when I wrote that. So for all I knew, you still meant what you said.
I don't agree. At all. There's no way I'd add this to a cube. Not even a big one. Duergar Hedge-Mage makes this card look bad. And Hedge-Mage isn't even a top 7 card for its guild! Same with Orim's Thunder; another card I think is better by a pretty fair amount. It's barely better than a Disenchant in decks that have regular access to both colors. It can only be played in a fraction of the decks that Disenchant can, and the opportunities for it to be better are few and far between ...making it a FAR worse card, IMO. Not the kind of card I'd be remotely considering cubing at any size.
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But let's move on in good order - we can maybe all agree that this card is a strictly better disenchant at best (in a deck where all lands are plateaus). At worst it's a 15th pick card that aren't drafted.
I also think everyone including me and Goodking that are the (devils) advocates on this card, can agree this aren't the most exciting card, even if it proves good enough in larger cubes.
It will however replace my Modern Boros sideboard disenchants for sure... Lets hope we get some more exciting cards tomorrow.
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You also have the biggest cube with the most Boros slots. Makes it a lot easier to consider cards when you have 9 slots deep per guild. Personally, I still don't think it makes it in.
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In the past, I've made my apologies to others when I've mistakenly done the same. But it's an easy mistake to make.
That's honestly fine. That's your opinion. As for me, I possibly prefer it to Thunder. I'd have to look at it closely vs. Hedge-Mage. That means it would be on my radar at about the same number of cards as the latter. If you differ on it that's fine.
You see how this constructive discussion is better than Antknee's original comment? That is what was my issue here. Am I not within my right to form an argument for the card seeing as I consider it might interest someone in the face of silly comments about 'sucks' and 'garbage'? Of course I am. You actually seem offended that I'd dare to defend the card. I don't know whether that's some kind of subconscious appeal to ridicule or what, but that's how it comes across.
Basically, here's the bottom line: I tried to call someone on being overly negative on a card that I consider to have some applications. He thinks it's bad, you think it's bad too. That's fine, and is part of cube discussion. I'm trying to do away with comments like those Antknee made, which just aren't constructive; I'm not singling him out here, and AA is a quality contributor to this forum most of the time. I just don't want newer forum users being put off defending, or picking a card, as a result of that sort of approach to spoilers.
Let's just all talk about how good Ral Zarek is. If we all agree on something, nothing can go wrong. And on that note, I'm long overdue to go to bed. "Someone is wrong on the internet!"
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
But yeah, having to deal with peeps just jumping into threads with one-line posts about how garbage a card is? What is this, the rumor mill?
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This isn't entirely fair to the card, because disenchant effects aren't nearly as strong in pauper than in normal cubes. When the most troublesome artifacts behind Serrated Arrows are Bonesplitter and Vulshok Morningstar and a rather high portion of decks don't run a single target, these effects don't demand to be played in nearly the same way as they do in rare cubes.
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Good point. The equipment section of most rare cubes is reason enough to make disenchant/shatter effects powerful. Once you add in utility artifacts and creatures, creatures like Manic Vandal start to become staples next to objectively more powerful cards.