Due to discussion in the Voice thread of him vs Pridemage, I decide to make a list of cards that can deal with enchantment/artifact in cube. I don't know how useful it'll be, and since the list comes from my cube+some cards on top of my head, I most likely be missing something. If there is and I notice, I'll just edit the list. Well, here goes.
I've always been curious if I'm running enough of these effects so I was quite interested when I saw this thread. Here's what I'm running at 450 Powered, I'm often wondering specifically about artifact removal since I try and support the artifact deck so want enough cards to fight against it. Smash to Smithereens is a card I'd like to find room for again.
Personally I dont like the spell-based disenchant effects as they are kinda one dimensional.
The one thing that makes me prefer Disenchant to pridemage or your theoretical dude is surprise at instant speed. There are times where it doesn't matter and you're happy to play a dude that kills things, but my cube got to the point where it was all ETB creatures and stale combat. Disenchant helps make combat interesting, destroying equipment and artifact creatures during combat, which Indrik Stomphowler can't do, and Qasali Pridemage can never do as a surprise.
The one thing that makes me prefer Disenchant to pridemage or your theoretical dude is surprise at instant speed.
I was about to post this, the instants give you opportunities for tricks and play nice with countermagic.
I'm a big fan of Orim's Thunder. I imagine it might be a little slow in a powered cube, but when I've played it in peasant it's been nasty. Similarly, Dismantling Blow is very satisfying to kick.
The one thing that makes me prefer Disenchant to pridemage or your theoretical dude is surprise at instant speed. There are times where it doesn't matter and you're happy to play a dude that kills things, but my cube got to the point where it was all ETB creatures and stale combat. Disenchant helps make combat interesting, destroying equipment and artifact creatures during combat, which Indrik Stomphowler can't do, and Qasali Pridemage can never do as a surprise.
Agree. In many games, I feel reaaly good holding a Disenchant because I do not have to destroy that opposing Artifact/Enchantment on my turn and I can hold it in my hand and wait for the last minute when I really need to blow it up. It can be destroying that big artifact creature mid combat to mess up combat math, or destroying a Moat at end of opponen's turn when blockers are not ready, or simply waiting for a bigger threat. Surprise factor is still very important in magic, as well as bluffing.
There is raw power such as card advantage and cost/power toughness, but there are also cards that allow better plays and in the end turns out to be more powerful when played properly.
We have had decent results with Leonin Relic-Warder. I was quite skeptical at first, due to the non permanent nature of the removal, but it turns out that A) making them use a removal spell on a two drop is often just fine, and B) removing some artifacts for a few turns is often a huge blow to their value, and C) they often cannot remove him.
Has anyone else tested him? I think he becomes interesting at about 500 (after Disenchant and Seal, but before Revoke Existence).
Relic-Warder was okay for us, but nothing special. The temporary nature of the effect hurt the ability to deal with bombs. It was a good tempo play when it could snag a Mox or a mana rock, but the WW hurt him in that capacity. I cut it when I went back down to 450.
Relic-Warder was okay for us, but nothing special. The temporary nature of the effect hurt the ability to deal with bombs. It was a good tempo play when it could snag a Mox or a mana rock, but the WW hurt him in that capacity. I cut it when I went back down to 450.
That's my biggest problem. If he were 1W i'd consider him, even temporary, but the combination of the temporary nature and the heavy mana requirements puts him on the side.
It would absolutely still be in my cube if it cost 1W instead. It makes it a whole lot easier for decks to use it as a tempo bear outside of WW/x builds.
Does anyone run / previously ran / considered running any of the 3-color 3-CMC shard-charms? There are several of them that have modes that can answer artifacts and enchantments, they're all instant, and they all have other relevant modes so they'll never be dead against an opponent without artifacts / enchantments etc. & a few of them are quite good. On the other hand they're all very color-intensive.
They're not good enough or useful enough to pull you into playing the 3 color combination, which means you only play them if you're already in those colors, which isn't good.
While I'm on the topic of mana restrictive disenchant effects, Sundering Growth was just brought to my attention. How often does populate have to hit to make this playable?
While I'm on the topic of mana restrictive disenchant effects, Sundering Growth was just brought to my attention. How often does populate have to hit to make this playable?
It's good without populate, and great to ridiculous with it. I've seen it make tokens plenty of times, so it's been pretty good for us. I recommend giving it a try.
The most important aspect of Seal is playing it in front of the targets. All cards that can have an immediate impact can be nullified. This is particularly important against Swords and other broken equipment. That alone has happened far more often than the exiling has been relevant. But the interactions with Titan and Tutor are certainly nice (and relevant).
Are y'all counting Sundering Growth as white, green, or selesnya? Selesnya is so deep I never even really considered it.
We present it with selesnya, but we run unbalanced gold sections and are much less strict with allowing hybrids as opposed to actual gold cards, which need to be much more powerful to make up for the tough casting cost.
Are y'all counting Sundering Growth as white, green, or selesnya? Selesnya is so deep I never even really considered it.
I restrict gold cards because they are narrow. Hybrid cards are exactly the opposite, so if you think a hybrid card like Sundering Growth is cube worthy, keeping it out of your cube because of restrictions meant to make you cube cards less narrow is completely counterproductive.
I personally have an unbalanced hybrid section, because hybrid cards make your cube awesome, but if you don't want to do that, run it in white or green.
Good summary, but I would say that I can gear my deck to make Seal better, whereas Revoke Existence being better than a generic disenchant relies mostly on what my opponent does. I also think being able to run Seal out early is a bigger advantage than it seems, unless you are keeping 2 mana up for a Disenchant at all times.
While that is certainly true, with 50:16 the numbers are just heavily in favor of the sorcery.
I understand that, but I'm saying this is a place where raw numbers fail to tell the story. There is only one Sun Titan and one Enlightened Tutor in cube. Now, let's say we have a cube that runs 3 artifact regenerators. Let's say that there are no other interactions in this specific cube (for the ease of argument). The numbers are in favor of Revoke Existence (3 to 2), right? But I would say that Seal is so, so much better in this cube, because having interactions with cards in your own deck is going to come up much more often than interacting with cards that may or may not show up (or even be played) against one or two opponents. Additionally, the raw numbers in no way comment on the power of said interaction. Being able to tutor or reuse disenchant effects is much more powerful than being able to kill regenerators, especially since Seal can often kill regenerators when the mana isn't up, or just downright prevents artifacts from hitting the board for several more turns.
Anyway, this is obviously a simplified comparison, and is not meant to show the superiority of one card over the other, simply the dangers of looking at numbers without context.
(Additionally, this is not to say that numbers are meaningless. I am insanely appreciative of the numbers you and others provide)
The times where the Seal is better have not only outnumbered, but been more important than the times where Revoke would've been better. Answering a Sword before it can connect prevents a game loss. Making more efficient use of your mana is clutch. The raw numbers may favor Revoke (I think it's far less than 50:16, unless you're counting every reanimation spell and potential graveyard enabler--which can be cards in your deck that you're hosing too) I think it's a very disingenuous evaluation. It's worse when they have a Reanimate for the Battlesphere, but it's better when you have a Reanimate for their Battlesphere). And for each time I've seen my opponent be able to take advantage of the card not exiling the target, there have been probably twice that many number of times where I wish I could've curved out more effectively or I've been hit with a "hasted" piece of equipment that causes a blowout. After playing both pretty extensively, the Seal was the far better option.
I'll probably run Sundering Growth before Revoke, anyhow. Instant speed is worth it, I think.
Should I remove one card each from green and white and move Finks there and add Sundering Growth? But I'm having tough enough times finding cuts as is for Elesh Norn/Silverblade/Flickerwisp.
Currently, I run no Disenchants in my cube. That is to say, I run no instants (or sorceries) whose resolution solely involves destroying an artifact or enchantment. I do run several creatures who do that kind of work, however...
(For reference, this is the Legacy cube linked in my sig. All rarities, unpowered, 545 cards.)
Also, I run spells like Vindicate, Abrupt Decay, etc, that can serve as Disenchants if neeed be.
The reason I never ran Disenchant spells is I've always considered them sideboard cards. I just didn't want to include cards that would strictly be sideboard cards. Recent revisions to my cube have upped the artifact count, and there remain some saucy enchantments in there. I'm wondering if I should add in spells like Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Seal of Primordium, and Krosan Grip? If I do, are those specific cards good additions? Should I then ditch a couple of the creatures who do similar work? How many Disenchant-style effects are too many?
I play the White ones since that color lacks multiple good options on legs. I don't consider them to be sideboard-only cards, and we've been happy with them at 450.
Disenchant Effects
Artifacts Destruction
Enchantment Destruction
There's also other cards, of course, that can deal with other type of cards as well.
I'm wondering if I am running enough of these cards at 360. Not running enough of them can leads to some incredibly imbalance game, after all.
EDIT: Add some things in the list I miss before.
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Disenchant Effects
Kor Sanctifiers
Disenchant
Seal of Cleansing
Wickerbough Elder
Qasali Pridemage
Trygon Predator
Artifact Removal
Torch Fiend
Manic Vandal
Keldon Vandals
Viridian Shaman
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Various Permanent Removal
Karn Liberated
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Oblivion Ring
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Woodfall Primus
Terastodon
Acidic Slime
Vraska the Unseen
Maelstrom Pulse
Nevinyrral's Disk
Faith's Fetters
Pillage
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Pauper Cube
One-Drop Cube
The one thing that makes me prefer Disenchant to pridemage or your theoretical dude is surprise at instant speed. There are times where it doesn't matter and you're happy to play a dude that kills things, but my cube got to the point where it was all ETB creatures and stale combat. Disenchant helps make combat interesting, destroying equipment and artifact creatures during combat, which Indrik Stomphowler can't do, and Qasali Pridemage can never do as a surprise.
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I was about to post this, the instants give you opportunities for tricks and play nice with countermagic.
I'm a big fan of Orim's Thunder. I imagine it might be a little slow in a powered cube, but when I've played it in peasant it's been nasty. Similarly, Dismantling Blow is very satisfying to kick.
Agree. In many games, I feel reaaly good holding a Disenchant because I do not have to destroy that opposing Artifact/Enchantment on my turn and I can hold it in my hand and wait for the last minute when I really need to blow it up. It can be destroying that big artifact creature mid combat to mess up combat math, or destroying a Moat at end of opponen's turn when blockers are not ready, or simply waiting for a bigger threat. Surprise factor is still very important in magic, as well as bluffing.
There is raw power such as card advantage and cost/power toughness, but there are also cards that allow better plays and in the end turns out to be more powerful when played properly.
Has anyone else tested him? I think he becomes interesting at about 500 (after Disenchant and Seal, but before Revoke Existence).
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That's my biggest problem. If he were 1W i'd consider him, even temporary, but the combination of the temporary nature and the heavy mana requirements puts him on the side.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cheers,
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I restrict gold cards because they are narrow. Hybrid cards are exactly the opposite, so if you think a hybrid card like Sundering Growth is cube worthy, keeping it out of your cube because of restrictions meant to make you cube cards less narrow is completely counterproductive.
I personally have an unbalanced hybrid section, because hybrid cards make your cube awesome, but if you don't want to do that, run it in white or green.
Good summary, but I would say that I can gear my deck to make Seal better, whereas Revoke Existence being better than a generic disenchant relies mostly on what my opponent does. I also think being able to run Seal out early is a bigger advantage than it seems, unless you are keeping 2 mana up for a Disenchant at all times.
I understand that, but I'm saying this is a place where raw numbers fail to tell the story. There is only one Sun Titan and one Enlightened Tutor in cube. Now, let's say we have a cube that runs 3 artifact regenerators. Let's say that there are no other interactions in this specific cube (for the ease of argument). The numbers are in favor of Revoke Existence (3 to 2), right? But I would say that Seal is so, so much better in this cube, because having interactions with cards in your own deck is going to come up much more often than interacting with cards that may or may not show up (or even be played) against one or two opponents. Additionally, the raw numbers in no way comment on the power of said interaction. Being able to tutor or reuse disenchant effects is much more powerful than being able to kill regenerators, especially since Seal can often kill regenerators when the mana isn't up, or just downright prevents artifacts from hitting the board for several more turns.
Anyway, this is obviously a simplified comparison, and is not meant to show the superiority of one card over the other, simply the dangers of looking at numbers without context.
(Additionally, this is not to say that numbers are meaningless. I am insanely appreciative of the numbers you and others provide)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Should I remove one card each from green and white and move Finks there and add Sundering Growth? But I'm having tough enough times finding cuts as is for Elesh Norn/Silverblade/Flickerwisp.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Manic Vandal
1 Torch Fiend
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage (pending acquisition of a foil)
(For reference, this is the Legacy cube linked in my sig. All rarities, unpowered, 545 cards.)
Also, I run spells like Vindicate, Abrupt Decay, etc, that can serve as Disenchants if neeed be.
The reason I never ran Disenchant spells is I've always considered them sideboard cards. I just didn't want to include cards that would strictly be sideboard cards. Recent revisions to my cube have upped the artifact count, and there remain some saucy enchantments in there. I'm wondering if I should add in spells like Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Seal of Primordium, and Krosan Grip? If I do, are those specific cards good additions? Should I then ditch a couple of the creatures who do similar work? How many Disenchant-style effects are too many?
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!