I think at 1 token it's worth it, at two it's nuts.
I agree. Even one spell gives you 3 power for 1R with a small drawback (having the 1/1 come in delayed if played on curve). After the second spell, you got quite a bargain for such a cheap creature.
The following should be a pretty common scenario in an R/X aggro deck that should give you quite a tempo boost:
First turn: 1-drop
Second turn: Young Pyromancer
Third turn: Stone Rain / Pillage / Molten Rain / removal on the only blocker
I normally build my aggro decks pretty creature heavy, but I like the spell support for those decks that cards like Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe provide.
Of course, we are running both of these already so there is a chance we'll test Pyroboy anyway.
I think this guy will prove to be far better than Mogg War Marshal. The war marshall is two mana for two 1/1s (aka Dragon Fodder) with the option of paying another two mana for a (potential) third 1/1. It has very limited upside, except with repeatable reanimation. The War Marshall almost never draws dedicated removal because of the low value.
This guy, on the other hand, is a 2/1 for 1R with near unlimited upside that you never have to sink another mana into. He will draw a ton of removal. I only wish he made Goblins.
I think this guy will prove to be far better than Mogg War Marshal. The war marshall is two mana for two 1/1s (aka Dragon Fodder) with the option of paying another two mana for a (potential) third 1/1. It has very limited upside, except with repeatable reanimation. The War Marshall almost never draws dedicated removal because of the low value.
This guy, on the other hand, is a 2/1 for 1R with near unlimited upside that you never have to sink another mana into. He will draw a ton of removal. I only wish he made Goblins.
Just wanted to point out that we rate Mogg War Marshal far higher than most people, so I will respectfully disagree with you. He's just consistently performing well for us, so my comment really wasn't meant as a slight. We abuse the hell out of him all the time either with sac effects or with anthems, and I don't think Pyromancer will be as easily abused - 'spells matter' cards just don't tend to be very good.
I think part of the problem is that in order to really profit from a card that makes 1/1 tokens, you need a deck that usually has lots of other creatures. I don't know about you, but picturing this card in a competitive counterburn deck doesn't make me feel all fuzzy and warm inside, it seems like that slot would be better spent on a better card - for instance, Guttersnipe does a far better job in this deck; or just another burn spell, or Chandra's Phoenix, or another counter or draw/filter spell, or Thundermaw Hellkite, or Ludevic's Test Subject, or...
War Marshal is great in decks that work well with tokens. This guy will have a harder time because you need a critical mass of instants/sorceries for it to do anything. And as previously mentioned, in decks where Pyromancer will make tokens, he probably won't be very good. It's Delver of Secrets all over again.
I don't think it's delver of secrets all over again. If you make 1 token with him via burn or removal, that's plenty good since Pyromancer have 2 power. If you makes 2, that's more than what I expect from my 2 drop.
Just wanted to point out that we rate Mogg War Marshal far higher than most people, so I will respectfully disagree with you. He's just consistently performing well for us, so my comment really wasn't meant as a slight. We abuse the hell out of him all the time either with sac effects or with anthems, and I don't think Pyromancer will be as easily abused - 'spells matter' cards just don't tend to be very good.
I think part of the problem is that in order to really profit from a card that makes 1/1 tokens, you need a deck that usually has lots of other creatures. I don't know about you, but picturing this card in a competitive counterburn deck doesn't make me feel all fuzzy and warm inside, it seems like that slot would be better spent on a better card - for instance, Guttersnipe does a far better job in this deck; or just another burn spell, or Chandra's Phoenix, or another counter or draw/filter spell, or Thundermaw Hellkite, or Ludevic's Test Subject, or...
War Marshal is great in decks that work well with tokens. This guy will have a harder time because you need a critical mass of instants/sorceries for it to do anything. And as previously mentioned, in decks where Pyromancer will make tokens, he probably won't be very good. It's Delver of Secrets all over again.
I think that is probably the disconnect we are having. War Marshall has better interactions with token decks and sac decks and reanimation decks, but this guy is going to be better in red or R/x aggro. And while we see token, pox, and reanimator decks, they don't usually run red (B/r pox is making a push though) so it's possibly cube dependent.
As for counterburn, I think this guy is going to be fantastic in that deck. All those one cost draw spells and cantrips. Mmmmm. The creatures you name are all either at a different cost, or filling a different role. I do know that some other cubes run a different style of counterburn than us though. We tend to run more of a small creatures backed by counters, burn and tempo spells, with maybe one creature above 4 mana.
I think delver is an awful comparison. Delver needs a critical mass of instants and sorceries to flip and be good, and then never creates CA or extra value. It also needs to flip the turn after you play it to be worthwhile. This guy rewards you for playing like you normally would, and only needs 1 or 2 activations to give you more value than the other red two drops available in cube, and that's easy and natural in black, red, and blue especially. The comparison to guttersnipe is also sort of silly since you would want both of them in the same deck rather than one or the other. I played a counterburn deck the other day with scroll rack, time spiral and guttersnipe, and I can safely say this would have been a welcome addition. Basically, if I couldn't get behind a red two drop that is also a rather high ceiling token producer at no real additional cost, then I can't get behind pizza, puppy dogs, and mila kunis either.
I think that is probably the disconnect we are having. War Marshall has better interactions with token decks and sac decks and reanimation decks, but this guy is going to be better in red or R/x aggro.
Maybe. I tend to not run many instants/sorceries in my aggro decks, myself - there just isn't much space after adding creatures and high power equipment/'walkers/artifacts. Mogg War Marshall admittedly isn't very strong in aggro, but it can be worthwhile if you have a couple anthem/battle cry effects.
As for counterburn, I think this guy is going to be fantastic in that deck. All those one cost draw spells and cantrips. Mmmmm. The creatures you name are all either at a different cost, or filling a different role. I do know that some other cubes run a different style of counterburn than us though. We tend to run more of a small creatures backed by counters, burn and tempo spells, with maybe one creature above 4 mana.
Mmmm. Maybe you're right, but like I said, I just can't see how a 2/1 for 2 and a few 1/1 tokens is going to be very good for a counterburn deck.
I think delver is an awful comparison. Delver needs a critical mass of instants and sorceries to flip and be good, and then never creates CA or extra value. It also needs to flip the turn after you play it to be worthwhile. This guy rewards you for playing like you normally would, and only needs 1 or 2 activations to give you more value than the other red two drops available in cube, and that's easy and natural in black, red, and blue especially.
You're right that Delver needs even more instants/sorceries to be good. But I think the principle is pretty similar - not good in decks with lots of creatures, still not good in decks with lots of spells (IMO).
The comparison to guttersnipe is also sort of silly since you would want both of them in the same deck rather than one or the other.
Wut? Them going in the same deck makes the comparison all the more logical.
I played a counterburn deck the other day with scroll rack, time spiral and guttersnipe, and I can safely say this would have been a welcome addition. Basically, if I couldn't get behind a red two drop that is also a rather high ceiling token producer at no real additional cost, then I can't get behind pizza, puppy dogs, and mila kunis either.
Like I said, I just don't see how a few small creatures are ever going to be relevant in a counterburn deck. I could be wrong, of course.
Mmmm. Maybe you're right, but like I said, I just can't see how a 2/1 for 2 and a few 1/1 tokens is going to be very good for a counterburn deck.
Again, this might depend on the type of counterburn deck you run, but I tend to typically run around 10 instants/sorceries so having an opening hand with a 1 cost draw spell, a burn or removal spell, and a counter is not unreasonable. So let's say you go T1 draw spell (hopefully Ancestral Visions, but whatevs) then this guy. If they don't remove him that turn, they are in trouble, because you an sit back, keep your mana open, and answer both their creatures and their spells all the while growing your army. A 2/1 ans 1-3 1/1s might not seem that scary, until it is backed by counters, removal and bounce.
Basically, this guy helps solve the basic problem of reactive decks, which is how to make your board threatening without tapping all your multiple turns. Tarmogoyf did something similar at the same cost, so while I'm not expecting that level of impact, I am excited for this guys potential.
The big question will be how many instants/sorceries make him playable. 8?
Again, this might depend on the type of counterburn deck you run, but I tend to typically run around 10 instants/sorceries so having an opening hand with a 1 cost draw spell, a burn or removal spell, and a counter is not unreasonable. So let's say you go T1 draw spell (hopefully Ancestral Visions, but whatevs) then this guy. If they don't remove him that turn, they are in trouble, because you an sit back, keep your mana open, and answer both their creatures and their spells all the while growing your army. A 2/1 ans 1-3 1/1s might not seem that scary, until it is backed by counters, removal and bounce.
Basically, this guy helps solve the basic problem of reactive decks, which is how to make your board threatening without tapping all your multiple turns. Tarmogoyf did something similar at the same cost, so while I'm not expecting that level of impact, I am excited for this guys potential.
The big question will be how many instants/sorceries make him playable. 8?
Enough to pretty much guarantee one token, with reasonable chances at more I'd say. 8 doesn't sound half bad.
Nice post, though why are you using your Preordain on T1 in that scenario? Just dropping the usual "if you cast 1-mana cantrips on T1 by default, you're misplaying them". Unless you need it to seriously polish your hand (in which case the hand was a shaky keep), it's much more valuable once a few turns have passed and you know what you need. A T5 Preordain is a lot better than a T1 Preordain.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
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**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Enough to pretty much guarantee one token, with reasonable chances at more I'd say. 8 doesn't sound half bad.
Nice post, though why are you using your Preordain on T1 in that scenario? Just dropping the usual "if you cast 1-mana cantrips on T1 by default, you're misplaying them". Unless you need it to seriously polish your hand (in which case the hand was a shaky keep), it's much more valuable once a few turns have passed and you know what you need. A T5 Preordain is a lot better than a T1 Preordain.
I was thinking curve here, and trying to portray a "typical", as opposed to specific hand (hence the Ancestral Visions talk).
More to your point, I tend to cast 1-mana cantrips on T1 more than others. Obviously, a ton depends on the specific build, but I tend to run a good amount of draw and dig in my decks, and I want information and curve smoothing ASAP, as opposed to answers later. It might just be my aggressive nature in games though.
Comparing this to Delver is like comparing Black Lotus to Ornithopter simply because they both share a casting cost of zero or both like decks heavy in spells.
Let's look at it this way, Delver is a card that requires a specific top deck and has a narrow window of being really good, then becomes outclassed or simply is a 1/1 for 1. Pyromancer is fine with you having the spell in hand, grave, or where ever as long as you cast it.
Furthermore, if you play a Delver turn 1 and fail to flip, you have a terrible card, but a 2/1 will still be able to put out some relevant damage early on, even if not activated.
As for tokens versus the flip, there's also a big distinction. The flip is probably better for the first 2-3 turns but the tokens are better as a whole since they can play both offense and defense, the flipped Delver can Chump once if needed as almost everything kills an x/2 in cube. Furthermore both the tokens and pyromancer have interactions with cards like skullclamp. Also any equipment going on the token pretty much forces them to answer the token which basically means a 0-1 on your end.
I'm a little salty about the fact that no one has pointed out that this guy is really good with Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, and other cards you'd probably want in your token decks.
Wut? Them going in the same deck makes the comparison all the more logical.
I was responding to this:
I don't know about you, but picturing this card in a competitive counterburn deck doesn't make me feel all fuzzy and warm inside, it seems like that slot would be better spent on a better card - for instance, Guttersnipe does a far better job in this deck
In a deck where I want to run guttersnipe, I would also want to run this card. They wouldn't be vying for the same slot.
Again, this might depend on the type of counterburn deck you run, but I tend to typically run around 10 instants/sorceries so having an opening hand with a 1 cost draw spell, a burn or removal spell, and a counter is not unreasonable. So let's say you go T1 draw spell (hopefully Ancestral Visions, but whatevs) then this guy. If they don't remove him that turn, they are in trouble, because you an sit back, keep your mana open, and answer both their creatures and their spells all the while growing your army. A 2/1 ans 1-3 1/1s might not seem that scary, until it is backed by counters, removal and bounce.
You could very well be right. It's worth testing at the very least. In fact, I really hope you're right, I love token producers and another good one in red would be awesome.
Comparing this to Delver is like comparing Black Lotus to Ornithopter simply because they both share a casting cost of zero or both like decks heavy in spells.
I understand the Delver comparison, but there are slight differences. Delver needs a sorstant (tm Phantizle, all rights reserved, my wife is a lawyer) on top ASAP in order to go from awful to great, whereas this fella needs you to cast one at any point that it lives in order to go from acceptable to good. This will also greatly affect how opponents play removal, as Delver is a "let's wait and see" (unless they have a pinger) as opposed to "let's wait and die".
To sum up, Delver is the worst card ever printed, and Young Pyromancer makes Black Lotus look like a piece of mediocre art printed on cardboard. Good day.
red is not usually a color you pair with in token decks.
I don't see why not. Hellrider and Hero of Oxid Ridge are both really good in token decks. Red has token and sweeper (albeit, weaker than white or black) spells.
I think red could be a fine support color for token decks, at the very least.
I'd like to clarify that I'm not saying the power desperety between the two is as vast as black lotus and ornithopter, I just selected the first two cards that shared a similarity but had different applications and one was just better than the other.
Also Red is getting to the point of being good for tokens. I mean they have siege gang commander and even Krenko. Maybe if we see a couple more cards we will see some RG or RW token decks? Maybe they're already possible? Call and Souls is basically 2 tokens with this guy, that's big game.
Card seems solid. Turns combat into some serious math on the opponent's part. Great on defense (creates blockers, can kill attacking X/4's with greater ease, etc.) and great on offense (1/1's may seem like nothing, but honestly free creatures are free creatures. Plus the card is a 2/1 to boot). If there really isn't any spells in my deck (which honestly, if you running red aggro, you want that burn, so I don't know what's up with these "All creature red decks") maybe I wouldn't run it, but based off the heavy amount of red aggro play I have seen, there shouldn't be any problems of obtaining avg at least 1 token off this guy, which is already above the curve for 2 mana in red.
I don't really like Talrand to be honest. I mean sure, his tokens are stronger but his base body is pretty weak and you need 2 other spells cast before he becomes better than his invocation.
Pyromancer and Guttersnipe have much more aggressively costed base bodies, so they really don't need to be around for more than one spell to put a good amount of pressure on.
I don't really like Talrand to be honest. I mean sure, his tokens are stronger but his base body is pretty weak and you need 2 other spells cast before he becomes better than his invocation.
Pyromancer and Guttersnipe have much more aggressively costed base bodies, so they really don't need to be around for more than one spell to put a good amount of pressure on.
Well, I'm biased and my play group has some people who love the card but as a whole it's been solid. I've mostly just played it in aggro decks as a 1-2 mana Lava Axe by that point of the game is enough to finish things. If not doming people for 5 you can also just kill their blocker and basically treat it as a 4/2 for 3 a lot of times.
I know the UR spell deck has been tried and he's ok there but I don't think he has ever just combo'ed off alone, and there aren't enough redundancies for the deck yet, but pyromancer will help.
I played a ur deck the other day with time spiral, guttersnipe, Chandra 3, and scroll rack and there were games where I managed to copy time spiral with chandra , cast all my instants with the first hand, shuffle back, and play a good portion of the new hand (I had faithless looting, preordain, frantic search, burst lightning, etc) that kind of play generated 10-14 damage from guttersnipe. This new guy generating 5-7 tokens in a deck like that seems awesome. In one game I even got the win by casting burst lighting, counter spelling it, then forbidding the counter spell for 8 damage + 2 from time spiral.
I agree. Even one spell gives you 3 power for 1R with a small drawback (having the 1/1 come in delayed if played on curve). After the second spell, you got quite a bargain for such a cheap creature.
The following should be a pretty common scenario in an R/X aggro deck that should give you quite a tempo boost:
First turn: 1-drop
Second turn: Young Pyromancer
Third turn: Stone Rain / Pillage / Molten Rain / removal on the only blocker
I normally build my aggro decks pretty creature heavy, but I like the spell support for those decks that cards like Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe provide.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I think this guy will prove to be far better than Mogg War Marshal. The war marshall is two mana for two 1/1s (aka Dragon Fodder) with the option of paying another two mana for a (potential) third 1/1. It has very limited upside, except with repeatable reanimation. The War Marshall almost never draws dedicated removal because of the low value.
This guy, on the other hand, is a 2/1 for 1R with near unlimited upside that you never have to sink another mana into. He will draw a ton of removal. I only wish he made Goblins.
I think part of the problem is that in order to really profit from a card that makes 1/1 tokens, you need a deck that usually has lots of other creatures. I don't know about you, but picturing this card in a competitive counterburn deck doesn't make me feel all fuzzy and warm inside, it seems like that slot would be better spent on a better card - for instance, Guttersnipe does a far better job in this deck; or just another burn spell, or Chandra's Phoenix, or another counter or draw/filter spell, or Thundermaw Hellkite, or Ludevic's Test Subject, or...
War Marshal is great in decks that work well with tokens. This guy will have a harder time because you need a critical mass of instants/sorceries for it to do anything. And as previously mentioned, in decks where Pyromancer will make tokens, he probably won't be very good. It's Delver of Secrets all over again.
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I think that is probably the disconnect we are having. War Marshall has better interactions with token decks and sac decks and reanimation decks, but this guy is going to be better in red or R/x aggro. And while we see token, pox, and reanimator decks, they don't usually run red (B/r pox is making a push though) so it's possibly cube dependent.
As for counterburn, I think this guy is going to be fantastic in that deck. All those one cost draw spells and cantrips. Mmmmm. The creatures you name are all either at a different cost, or filling a different role. I do know that some other cubes run a different style of counterburn than us though. We tend to run more of a small creatures backed by counters, burn and tempo spells, with maybe one creature above 4 mana.
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Mmmm. Maybe you're right, but like I said, I just can't see how a 2/1 for 2 and a few 1/1 tokens is going to be very good for a counterburn deck.
You're right that Delver needs even more instants/sorceries to be good. But I think the principle is pretty similar - not good in decks with lots of creatures, still not good in decks with lots of spells (IMO).
Wut? Them going in the same deck makes the comparison all the more logical.
Like I said, I just don't see how a few small creatures are ever going to be relevant in a counterburn deck. I could be wrong, of course.
Again, this might depend on the type of counterburn deck you run, but I tend to typically run around 10 instants/sorceries so having an opening hand with a 1 cost draw spell, a burn or removal spell, and a counter is not unreasonable. So let's say you go T1 draw spell (hopefully Ancestral Visions, but whatevs) then this guy. If they don't remove him that turn, they are in trouble, because you an sit back, keep your mana open, and answer both their creatures and their spells all the while growing your army. A 2/1 ans 1-3 1/1s might not seem that scary, until it is backed by counters, removal and bounce.
Basically, this guy helps solve the basic problem of reactive decks, which is how to make your board threatening without tapping all your multiple turns. Tarmogoyf did something similar at the same cost, so while I'm not expecting that level of impact, I am excited for this guys potential.
The big question will be how many instants/sorceries make him playable. 8?
Enough to pretty much guarantee one token, with reasonable chances at more I'd say. 8 doesn't sound half bad.
Nice post, though why are you using your Preordain on T1 in that scenario? Just dropping the usual "if you cast 1-mana cantrips on T1 by default, you're misplaying them". Unless you need it to seriously polish your hand (in which case the hand was a shaky keep), it's much more valuable once a few turns have passed and you know what you need. A T5 Preordain is a lot better than a T1 Preordain.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I was thinking curve here, and trying to portray a "typical", as opposed to specific hand (hence the Ancestral Visions talk).
More to your point, I tend to cast 1-mana cantrips on T1 more than others. Obviously, a ton depends on the specific build, but I tend to run a good amount of draw and dig in my decks, and I want information and curve smoothing ASAP, as opposed to answers later. It might just be my aggressive nature in games though.
Let's look at it this way, Delver is a card that requires a specific top deck and has a narrow window of being really good, then becomes outclassed or simply is a 1/1 for 1. Pyromancer is fine with you having the spell in hand, grave, or where ever as long as you cast it.
Furthermore, if you play a Delver turn 1 and fail to flip, you have a terrible card, but a 2/1 will still be able to put out some relevant damage early on, even if not activated.
As for tokens versus the flip, there's also a big distinction. The flip is probably better for the first 2-3 turns but the tokens are better as a whole since they can play both offense and defense, the flipped Delver can Chump once if needed as almost everything kills an x/2 in cube. Furthermore both the tokens and pyromancer have interactions with cards like skullclamp. Also any equipment going on the token pretty much forces them to answer the token which basically means a 0-1 on your end.
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I was responding to this:
In a deck where I want to run guttersnipe, I would also want to run this card. They wouldn't be vying for the same slot.
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To sum up, Delver is the worst card ever printed, and Young Pyromancer makes Black Lotus look like a piece of mediocre art printed on cardboard. Good day.
I don't see why not. Hellrider and Hero of Oxid Ridge are both really good in token decks. Red has token and sweeper (albeit, weaker than white or black) spells.
I think red could be a fine support color for token decks, at the very least.
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Also Red is getting to the point of being good for tokens. I mean they have siege gang commander and even Krenko. Maybe if we see a couple more cards we will see some RG or RW token decks? Maybe they're already possible? Call and Souls is basically 2 tokens with this guy, that's big game.
Or UR with Talrand, Sky Summoner.
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Pyromancer and Guttersnipe have much more aggressively costed base bodies, so they really don't need to be around for more than one spell to put a good amount of pressure on.
How good has Guttersnipe worked for you so far?
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I know the UR spell deck has been tried and he's ok there but I don't think he has ever just combo'ed off alone, and there aren't enough redundancies for the deck yet, but pyromancer will help.
So all and all, the snipe has been pretty solid.
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