I don't like them in control because they're so bad against aggro.
I haven't found them to be bad against aggro. Sure, they aren't the early game stopped with life gain attached that is really an anti aggro bomb, but the prevent aggro from sealing the deal in the midgame, let you dig for your wrath (or Moat or shutdown fatty), and help prevent a post sweeper comeback. Not shabby for a card that shines in every other matchup.
Aggro likes to push a lot of game-ending damage through with evasive creatures carrying swords, and I've found these kinds of effects to be excellent counters to those strategies. Preventing damage from their strongest attacker and neutralizing a Sword/Jitte at the same time is pretty clutch.
There's a couple of players in my group that got into the game when Ice Age first came out (I know it was a reprint then) and these players are really attached to the "old" cards (Icy + Assassin was deadly). One of them is still lobbying to get Soldevi Digger in the cube (and another wants Unstable Mutation). Anyway, they really didn't want to see Icy go but after watching its performance over the last few months (while it was still in) it was obvious to us that it was too slow for what it wanted to do.
I've kept it in my on deck box just in case, but to be honest there's a number of other artifacts I'd rather throw in.
I'm sure you got the main point behind my Maze of Ith comment, but thanks for the productive response I'll bite & talk about a card they won't ever print sure.
I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I was addressing literally what you were saying (not implying, but the actual words), because I wasn't sure if you were being hyperbolic or not. And maybe I'm alone, but I don't find talking about the hypothetical value of effects useless, even if they are unlikely to see print in that exact form.
I notice that most of the people not running the card are running 360 cubes. I think they're fine to skip at that size.
I'm running a 360 but I'm not cutting the card for space reasons. If I drafted a larger cube, as long as it was similar in speed, I wouldn't draft or maindeck these cards.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I'm running a 360 but I'm not cutting the card for space reasons. If I drafted a larger cube, as long as it was similar in speed, I wouldn't draft or maindeck these cards.
Do these two things ever go together, without breaking the singleton rule?
Do these two things ever go together, without breaking the singleton rule?
I didn't say identical, I said similar.
These cards have been bad in Winston drafts, an inherently slower format. To be worth drafting for me, I'd need to be playing a cube where I could expect to see midrange vs midrange more than any other match up, and where my opponents drafted the better cards to play turn 4 and 5. I've cubed these cards for a long time, and I appreciate their versatility. But magic has been changing. On turns 3-5 you can now play a ton of powerful creatures and planeswalkers that outclass the tappers completely.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I think they're stellar cards for Winston and Sealed. I'd likely only play 1 of the 2 at 360, but I think picking them and playing them in decks is a good idea for a cube of any speed. They would lose value in a cube that had no equipment and no creatures with evasion ...but I've never drafted a cube with those restrictions so I can't say for sure.
They didn't quite make the cut at 360. An Icy costing one less would be an instant inclusion, and both these cards aren't far from inclusion at that level. The initial investment for Icy is rather high now compared to what 4 mana gets you in terms of creatures and planeswalkers, many of whom can perform some similar job with other utility. I like RoG a little less because the Echo cost is just a PITA, but it's still a fine card that I'd probably run at 450.
I run both at 450. Icy gets some bonus points for nostalgia. Ramp, reanimator and other cheat strategies, and both cards are good there. Forcing over-commitment into wraths is also very strong. I'd lose one if I went down to 360, possibly both, but having both in my 450 is fine.
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You never want to tap out for Icy, but you're always glad it's on the board once it's there. 1 mana to activate is nothing. The card still does an amazing amount of work. I'm happy with it. I haven't considered Ring, but I'm slightly turned off by the echo.
With the EMA update to Winter Orb, it looks like Icy Manipulator just got a bit better. Still, people were expressing concerns about it being too slow and unable to interact with most planeswalkers 3 years ago. Cubes are even faster now and with even more quality walkers, but closing out a game with a dude and a Sword is as popular as it ever was. Is Icy Manipulator worth running these days?
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I'm very likely bringing it back in during my next update. Icy Manipulator also happens to be one of the lone answers to Ætherling, so it'll be nice to have it back for that purpose too.
I think Icy Manipulator is underrated. It has a high up front cost, but after the initial investment it plays really well. Im not a fan of cards with echo, so I dont run Ring of Gix anymore.
Icy Manipulator never made decks in my 720 card Cube. A new "combo" with a single card isn't anywhere near enough to justify adding Icy back in. Even in Winter Orb decks I can't imagine that I am very excited to scoop up an Icy.
They're completely different cards. How good/useful one was for your playgroup isn't at all indicative of how the other one will perform.
I think Icy will be greatly improved since the last time I played it. Considering the Winter Orb interaction, locking out Ætherling, and the influx of new manlands that control decks need to defend themselves against. Looking forward to seeing it in action again at 540, and might be worth a look at 450 in the current cube meta.
Icy Manipulator is decent and has actually never left my cube. It's bad against and never really used in aggro, but in any combination of midrange/control matchups, it does its job. Also against decks that want to win with one powerful fatty, like ramp or reanimator. Ok, at least against some of those fatties. Really helps control deal with manlands, too.
I'd like to mention Tumble Magnet, which positively surprised me and works as the aggro deck's Icy. And shutting off your own Winter Orb only once or twice might be everything you need if you can apply some pressure.
I was never a fan of Ring of Gix though and cut it ages ago.
Icy has stayed in my cube since its formation partly for nostalgia reasons since I built a Turbo Stasis deck for my own amusement during the reign of Necropotence, and partly because it makes a decent replacement for Maze of Ith if you happen to have sold off your collection years ago before getting back into the game during Ravnica.
Ring of Gix I was ignorant of, but might be making its way into the cube now as well. Thanks thread!
These cards have been hurt by how good planeswalkers have become. For 3 or 4 mana you have way more impactful options with a PW permanent. Plus timewalking yourself on Ring is horrendous.
I haven't found them to be bad against aggro. Sure, they aren't the early game stopped with life gain attached that is really an anti aggro bomb, but the prevent aggro from sealing the deal in the midgame, let you dig for your wrath (or Moat or shutdown fatty), and help prevent a post sweeper comeback. Not shabby for a card that shines in every other matchup.
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I've kept it in my on deck box just in case, but to be honest there's a number of other artifacts I'd rather throw in.
I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I was addressing literally what you were saying (not implying, but the actual words), because I wasn't sure if you were being hyperbolic or not. And maybe I'm alone, but I don't find talking about the hypothetical value of effects useless, even if they are unlikely to see print in that exact form.
I notice that most of the people not running the card are running 360 cubes. I think they're fine to skip at that size.
Do these two things ever go together, without breaking the singleton rule?
I didn't say identical, I said similar.
These cards have been bad in Winston drafts, an inherently slower format. To be worth drafting for me, I'd need to be playing a cube where I could expect to see midrange vs midrange more than any other match up, and where my opponents drafted the better cards to play turn 4 and 5. I've cubed these cards for a long time, and I appreciate their versatility. But magic has been changing. On turns 3-5 you can now play a ton of powerful creatures and planeswalkers that outclass the tappers completely.
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I think Icy will be greatly improved since the last time I played it. Considering the Winter Orb interaction, locking out Ætherling, and the influx of new manlands that control decks need to defend themselves against. Looking forward to seeing it in action again at 540, and might be worth a look at 450 in the current cube meta.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I'd like to mention Tumble Magnet, which positively surprised me and works as the aggro deck's Icy. And shutting off your own Winter Orb only once or twice might be everything you need if you can apply some pressure.
I was never a fan of Ring of Gix though and cut it ages ago.
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Ring of Gix I was ignorant of, but might be making its way into the cube now as well. Thanks thread!