With the new Elvish Mystic, I was wondering if an elf theme was strong enough for a 450 cube? Theyse are the ones I could think of off the top of my head and a quick check of my own list.
Is it ready for cube or do I need to wait a few more sets for more support? Any other thoughts?
I think 8 of the 14 cards you listed are playable in most 450 lists so adding a couple of "lesser" elves to support a theme is fine if that's what you want to do.
At 540 I'm running 12 elves:
Arbor Elf
Bloodbraid Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Deranged Hermit
Elvish Mystic
Fauna Shaman
Fyndhorn Elves
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Viridian Shaman
Of these, I believe 8 of them fit into the super-ramp theme I'm supporting:
Arbor Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
I'm wondering how far we are from making a card like Elvish Archdruid playable. It would fit the 1-3-5 ramp I'm supporting in green but how often would be just be an extra 1G to promote my 1/1 to a 2/2? Probably still not worth it but it's an interesting card to look at & would get way better in a Cube that heavily supported Elves.
The best support card would probably be Imperious Perfect, because it isn't useless if you don't have any other elves, but I don't think the cube has enough elves that are good enough on their own to make Perfect a good add.
In a similar idea as yours, we added Cemetery Reaper to make zombies a theme, and along with Gravecrawler, Sarcomancy and Graveborn Muse which also benefit from other zombies, this worked out quite well, making the Reaper good enough to see play.
I'm not sure if there are enough elves to try for an elf archetype, but you could add some and see how it plays out. Maybe adding Imperious Perfect, Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid could make for a successful elf theme. I'm just not sure if adding those cards doesn't dilute the power level too much for the decks that don't have enough elves - the 'elves matter' cards seem weaker on their own than the 'zombies matter' cards.
we did something similar & added imperious perfect b/c of the large # of elves in cube & she isnt complete crap on her on & its worked out fine. you could also run elves of deepshadow to up your elf count...
The difference between tribal Elves and tribal Zombies, is that +1/+1 on my Zombies is great because I want to be attacking with them. Elvish Champion is a waste of my time when I'm tapping my other elves for mana anyways.
The difference between tribal Elves and tribal Zombies, is that +1/+1 on my Zombies is great because I want to be attacking with them. Elvish Champion is a waste of my time when I'm tapping my other elves for mana anyways.
What about Joraga Warcaller? Seems like a good way to turn a handful of mana elves into a legitimate threat.
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That's a bigger impact creature than the Champion; functioning more like an Overrun than a lord. When they're all 3/3s or 4/4s, that changes my incentive to tap them for mana.
That's a bigger impact creature than the Champion; functioning more like an Overrun than a lord. When they're all 3/3s or 4/4s, that changes my incentive to tap them for mana.
I agree that Champion seems lackluster. Elvish Archdruid and Imperious Perfect at least do good things on their own apart from the +1/+1.
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I'm not the biggest fan of warcaller. Sure, it pumps your other elves, but then you have awkward situations where you attack and doom blade turns into a Bonfire of the Damned. It's also a pretty big mana commitment for a fragile and often situational pump.
I get that the agro part of Elves may not work. However what are your thoughts on Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid to support the Ramp deck? Would 12 green elves be enough to support them?
I get that the agro part of Elves may not work. However what are your thoughts on Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid to support the Ramp deck? Would 12 green elves be enough to support them?
I dunno. I mean, unless you are running eldrazi, you are probably ramping into an 8-drop at most. With just her in play, priest is a bad llanowar elf. With 2 elves in play, she's a joruga treespeaker that can't tap on turn 2. By the time you get three elves in play, yeah she's good, but at that point you are already making at least 6 mana, so she's not gonna be that much better than an elvish mystic because she's so much harder to set up.
Archdruid is better, I think, because at least he gets your dorks out of the range of tragic slip for only one more mana, and is even better in multiples (if you are running UG with clones effects) because he grows your team, but again, most games he's just not going to make enough more mana than a normal dork to justify the increased cost. All in all I don't think these add enough to the ramp deck to make it worth a slot unless you are in a big, unpowered cube, which of course means you need even more elves to make sure you hit the critical mass.
I like the idea of a cube's elf-tribal build becoming one of the cube's ideal super-ramp builds. I've been thinking more about combo support lately, particularly outlets for infinite mana with palinchron tricks, and a lot of these outlets are still great for massive finite amounts of elf mana.
The problem might be finding the right outlets; with infinite mana Stroke of Genius will win the game, but with near-infinite elf mana it might take two Strokes to get there, which is where something like Kessig Wolf Run is ideal. Another problem is that I can't think of any good outlets in green (aside from repeatedly Green Sun's Zenith-ing I guess).
The problem might be finding the right outlets; with infinite mana Stroke of Genius will win the game, but with near-infinite elf mana it might take two Strokes to get there, which is where something like Kessig Wolf Run is ideal. Another problem is that I can't think of any good outlets in green (aside from repeatedly Green Sun's Zenith-ing I guess).
3cc
Imperious Perfect
Viridian Shaman
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Mirror Entity
Caller of the claw
Wood elves
Fierce Empath
4cc
Bloodbraid Elf
Oracle of Mul Daya
Chameleon Colossus
Yeva, Nature's Heral
5+
Deranged Hermit
****
A lot of these guys are already in most cubes. But equally important are the comments along page 2 about what you're doing with this archetype. This is where you need to balance "elves for the sake of elves" with stuff that supports a deck.
IMHO ajarms902 nails it with examples and sentiment. Wildfire393 gives us the "mana sink" idea with solid options, building off ajarms902.
Checkbox talks about Craterhoof Behemoth, which gets me thinking Legacy elves:
Elves for mana ---> Natural Order (several users here have been running this) --> Craterhoof, GG.
***
I would actually be inclined to change a handful of "okay" cards to build that hypothetical craterhoofelves.dec.
Notwithstanding, I think Priest of Titania's upside is still too narrow even in smaller cubes. She's win-more in cube situations because you don't want you green creatures to be all elves. It's one thing to replace a 1 drop or 2 drop with an elf or [elf archetype we're discussing] card. At a certain point you're going to toe the line with staples and second-tier (but still good) cards. I'd swap out a 2cc Boa or a 3 drop for something in elves we're talking about. But the room available is tight. The smaller the list, the less wiggle room you have.
This becomes even more apparent with options like [I pump elves you have] cards. I'd definitely stay away from lords because they're narrow. Like wtwlf and others have stated, you're not really attacking with these drudles as much as they're usually making mana.
If elves could somehow swarm (and swarm better than a generic aggro deck), there would be an argument for aggro-tribal elves. I'm just not sold on it. Even a 50/50 build of elves/generic stuff doesn't seem to distinguish itself from standard-build cube environments. Elves naturally help ramp, but then you need something to splurge all that mana on. Crap like Eldrazi Momument are hit-or-miss. A 'decreased' cc due to mana producing elves helps, but I would argue the natural order elves line is more versatile. I like this discussion as a whole let's keep it up!
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With the new Elvish Mystic, I was wondering if an elf theme was strong enough for a 450 cube? Theyse are the ones I could think of off the top of my head and a quick check of my own list.
Is it ready for cube or do I need to wait a few more sets for more support? Any other thoughts?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=221863
The first page of my Cube list also includes my cube workbook for excel, feel free to look at and use it if you would like to.
At 540 I'm running 12 elves:
Arbor Elf
Bloodbraid Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Deranged Hermit
Elvish Mystic
Fauna Shaman
Fyndhorn Elves
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Viridian Shaman
Of these, I believe 8 of them fit into the super-ramp theme I'm supporting:
Arbor Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
I'm wondering how far we are from making a card like Elvish Archdruid playable. It would fit the 1-3-5 ramp I'm supporting in green but how often would be just be an extra 1G to promote my 1/1 to a 2/2? Probably still not worth it but it's an interesting card to look at & would get way better in a Cube that heavily supported Elves.
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In a similar idea as yours, we added Cemetery Reaper to make zombies a theme, and along with Gravecrawler, Sarcomancy and Graveborn Muse which also benefit from other zombies, this worked out quite well, making the Reaper good enough to see play.
I'm not sure if there are enough elves to try for an elf archetype, but you could add some and see how it plays out. Maybe adding Imperious Perfect, Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid could make for a successful elf theme. I'm just not sure if adding those cards doesn't dilute the power level too much for the decks that don't have enough elves - the 'elves matter' cards seem weaker on their own than the 'zombies matter' cards.
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What about Joraga Warcaller? Seems like a good way to turn a handful of mana elves into a legitimate threat.
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I agree that Champion seems lackluster. Elvish Archdruid and Imperious Perfect at least do good things on their own apart from the +1/+1.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=221863
The first page of my Cube list also includes my cube workbook for excel, feel free to look at and use it if you would like to.
I dunno. I mean, unless you are running eldrazi, you are probably ramping into an 8-drop at most. With just her in play, priest is a bad llanowar elf. With 2 elves in play, she's a joruga treespeaker that can't tap on turn 2. By the time you get three elves in play, yeah she's good, but at that point you are already making at least 6 mana, so she's not gonna be that much better than an elvish mystic because she's so much harder to set up.
Archdruid is better, I think, because at least he gets your dorks out of the range of tragic slip for only one more mana, and is even better in multiples (if you are running UG with clones effects) because he grows your team, but again, most games he's just not going to make enough more mana than a normal dork to justify the increased cost. All in all I don't think these add enough to the ramp deck to make it worth a slot unless you are in a big, unpowered cube, which of course means you need even more elves to make sure you hit the critical mass.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Outlets like Stroke of Genius, Red Sun's Zenith / Devil's Play, and Kessig Wolf Run alongside ramp engines like Elvish Archdruid, Priest of Titania, and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary sounds a lot more interesting to me than trying tribal with Joraga Warcaller / Elvish Champion or even Imperious Perfect for that matter (imo there are just MUCH better token engines). If I'm drafting ramp I'm drafting elves and if I'm drafting elves I'm drafting ramp so it seems like a better fit and demonstrates what elves do best.
The problem might be finding the right outlets; with infinite mana Stroke of Genius will win the game, but with near-infinite elf mana it might take two Strokes to get there, which is where something like Kessig Wolf Run is ideal. Another problem is that I can't think of any good outlets in green (aside from repeatedly Green Sun's Zenith-ing I guess).
There's a number of repeatable token generation engines: Jade Mage, Ant Queen, Nemata, Grove Guardian, Centaur Glade, etc. These work pretty well as an Elvish mana sink. Gelatinous Genesis isn't terrible either. Make 25 power for 11 mana.
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Elvish Mana Sink 1
2,t: If you control an elf, your mana is now cleaned.
That sounds more like Elvish Mana Laundering.
Elvish visionary
Caller of the claw
Elves of deep shadow
Gyre Sage
Wood elves
edited to add 2 more elves, there could be more
Thelonite Hermit
Yeva, Nature's Heral
Thornscape Battlemage
Leaf Glider
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Masked Admirers
Skyshroud Elite
Coling Oracle
Kadha, Heir to Keld
Now it could be added the elf deck combo:
Nettle Sentinel
Wirewood Symbiote
Heritage Druid
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0cc
Mutavault (it's possible it's relevant. already a cube stable to boot)
1cc
Arbor Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Elves of deep shadow
Wirewood Symbiote
Nettle Sentinel [not sure]
Heritage Druid [not sure]
2cc
Fauna Shaman
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Elvish visionary
Gyre Sage
Coling Oracle
Radha, Heir to Keld
3cc
Imperious Perfect
Viridian Shaman
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Mirror Entity
Caller of the claw
Wood elves
Fierce Empath
4cc
Bloodbraid Elf
Oracle of Mul Daya
Chameleon Colossus
Yeva, Nature's Heral
5+
Deranged Hermit
A lot of these guys are already in most cubes. But equally important are the comments along page 2 about what you're doing with this archetype. This is where you need to balance "elves for the sake of elves" with stuff that supports a deck.
IMHO ajarms902 nails it with examples and sentiment. Wildfire393 gives us the "mana sink" idea with solid options, building off ajarms902.
Checkbox talks about Craterhoof Behemoth, which gets me thinking Legacy elves:
Elves for mana ---> Natural Order (several users here have been running this) --> Craterhoof, GG.
***
I would actually be inclined to change a handful of "okay" cards to build that hypothetical craterhoofelves.dec.
Notwithstanding, I think Priest of Titania's upside is still too narrow even in smaller cubes. She's win-more in cube situations because you don't want you green creatures to be all elves. It's one thing to replace a 1 drop or 2 drop with an elf or [elf archetype we're discussing] card. At a certain point you're going to toe the line with staples and second-tier (but still good) cards. I'd swap out a 2cc Boa or a 3 drop for something in elves we're talking about. But the room available is tight. The smaller the list, the less wiggle room you have.
This becomes even more apparent with options like [I pump elves you have] cards. I'd definitely stay away from lords because they're narrow. Like wtwlf and others have stated, you're not really attacking with these drudles as much as they're usually making mana.
If elves could somehow swarm (and swarm better than a generic aggro deck), there would be an argument for aggro-tribal elves. I'm just not sold on it. Even a 50/50 build of elves/generic stuff doesn't seem to distinguish itself from standard-build cube environments. Elves naturally help ramp, but then you need something to splurge all that mana on. Crap like Eldrazi Momument are hit-or-miss. A 'decreased' cc due to mana producing elves helps, but I would argue the natural order elves line is more versatile. I like this discussion as a whole let's keep it up!
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