Which, at an average of 10 people a draft, 2 years ago was not the case, and I think the constant pushing for more cubeable aggro creatures, is a partial reason.
Edit: I'd like to add if you're taking down x/3's and x/4's you've already paid 2-4 mana and two life to do so and then often you'll be trading after that and taking additional damage via the jackal pup clause. Pass.
Then you realize that you're Rx Aggro and you don't care about your life total. You just want to push as much damage as you can before your opponent casts Wrath of God. Speaking of which, the Firedrinker helps you *not* have to over-extend in the face of sweepers. I'll gladly trade 1-for-1 with Wrath of God on turn 3-4 after I've hit for anywhere from 3 to 8 damage.
Does this card get owned by mid-range? Yes -- but that's most, if not all aggro decks. The point is that this guy is a must-answer for control (and he doesn't even give them lands like Goblin Guide!) (but Guide is still better).
Jackal Pup was one card I could never get behind and this guy doesn't change that. If this guy didn't have the "jackal pup clause" (damage dealt to it, also dealt to you) but everything else about him was the same, I'd gladly run him.
So you want a strictly better Savannah Lions ...in red?
Jackal Pup is a complete baller, and the drawback is pretty much irrelevant. You lose far less life on average than you do to something like Carnophage or Vampire Lacerator, and in a color that needs it more, and has less self-damaging effects.
Edit: I'd like to add if you're taking down x/3's and x/4's you've already paid 2-4 mana and two life to do so and then often you'll be trading after that and taking additional damage via the jackal pup clause. Pass.
So... this is worse than a 1-drop that can't trade with a X/3 at all? It's optional. An added bonus. You don't have to attack into a bigger creature if you don't want to. But it's better to have the option than be playing with a different aggro creature that can't attack into the blocker at all. And, the ability allows you to attack into walls and kill them off in combat.
None of that post makes the least bit of sense to me.
If a powerful aggro card should be in any color, it's red.
Exactly. Which is why them printing this creature is so damn awesome.
Quote from hopefulhawkeye »
as I see it Jackal Pup has no place in a regular cube
I ...I just... don't.
You and I are clearly have a different understanding of how to evaluate cards. Jackal Pup is a 360 staple, and is the second best red aggro creature. Well, was, now that this card takes the #2 spot. To say that Jackal Pup has no place in a regular cube is just silly, and basically confirms that we have nothing further to discuss.
If a powerful aggro card should be in any color, it's red. Really this card without the when it takes damage, you take damage clause is all we need.
The Jackal Pup clause kills the viability of the card for me, even more so if your cube is heavy into aggro thus upping the chance it would only get blocked if you swing, never get in the early damage, and worse....if you have to use this as a blocker instead for a larger creature (or any creature really) coming sideways at you, that's a lot of self-inflicted pain for a one drop with nearly no viability beyond the first couple turns.
To me it comes down to opportunity cost: Is the cost of life and mana worth the potential to trade with a slightly larger guy or take down....a wall? I grant you this card is better than jackal pup for the reason you stated, but as I see it Jackal Pup has no place in a regular cube, and this guy while cubeable is outclassed as well. This is a 540+ card for me and I run a 450.
I disagree. Jackal Pup is something that you really need to play to get how good it is. I would play it in 360 and all cube size above.
Since when has an aggro deck ever cared about loss of its own life in anything other than the aggro mirror and only if it's on the losing side of the race. I think it's silly to look at the Jackal Pup "drawback" as anything remotely relevant. The whole point of an aggro deck is to take your opponent's life from 20 to 0 as quick as possible. The only thing that comes into play with that goal is mana efficiency, and a 2-power 1-drop is pretty much the most efficient cost to power ratio that you will see in magic. Personal life-loss is not even a concept in that kind of deck.
If they printed a Jackal Pup in every color, I'd probably run them all.
Jackal Pup is awesome. In Magic, in addition to your lands, you also have another resource -- your life total. Cards that use life as a drawback aren't always appealing but who cares if you're playing a deck that will lose the game if it goes too long anyways.
The drawback is essentially "Jackal Pup can't block and you take double damage from Earthquake." For a creature as aggressively costed as this, it's a minor downside. I mean, unless you are running a lot of Flame Slash and Searing Blazeand are always playing against other red decks...
The drawback is essentially "Jackal Pup can't block and you take double damage from Earthquake." For a creature as aggressively costed as this, it's a minor downside. I mean, unless you are running a lot of Flame Slash and Searing Blazeand are always playing against other red decks...
That really happen once. I was winning, too. Before I got Earthquake for 12 due to the pup. It's actually in "This can only happen in cube" thread.
Also there's the part where Jackal Pup just sits there after he has done 4 damage max, assuming you didn't run into any opposing aggro, green/blue flash blockers, or as you mentioned another red player (burn or aggro variety). At least Satyr's damage approaches being worth the drawback...this thread has convinced me the Satyr is testable (I begrudgingly admit) but bottom line, pups suck.
I actually have the same output as you before, believing that the drawback is too much. Then, I played against it. It's really not that big of a drawback compare to what it dish out.
I don't fail to grasp the concept of aggro. I just think the drawback is too much and if you don't more power to you.
I'm not trying to be mean, but the second sentence basically disproves the first. If you think jackal pup and satyr aren't good cards to support aggro in cube, you don't understand how aggro works. Life loss drawbacks only approach being relevant in aggro when you're running a lot in the same deck (like in over zealous suicide black).
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I'm not trying to be mean, but the second sentence basically disproves the first. If you think jackal pup and satyr aren't good cards to support aggro in cube, you don't understand how aggro works. Life loss drawbacks only approach being relevant in aggro when you're running a lot in the same deck (like in over zealous suicide black).
Yeah, yesterday I was expressing to a friend my excitement for this card as a cube maintainer, and he was expressing his disdain as a modern player. This is definitely one of those "cube only cards." It fills a hole we've wanted filled for a long time, and doesn't do much for any other format. I'm sure a standard burn deck will find him a home though.
I've been playing with Jackal Pup for five years in my cube, and I have literally never had its drawback cost me a game I would have won otherwise. And we have seen some crazy hazy $%#& in my day. Sure, it once got Fireblasted off a Mindslaver, but I wasn't winning that one anyone (as evidenced by the active Mindslaver).
I rarely am so cut and dry, but I see no reason a cube over 360 wouldn't play pup, and really he should be in 360s as well.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I don't fail to grasp the concept of aggro. I just think the drawback is too much...
I really don't want to sound like I'm being mean, but if you think the drawback is too much, you probably don't understand the concept of aggro all that well.
Quote from hopefulhawkeye »
Also there's the part where Jackal Pup just sits there after he has done 4 damage max, assuming you didn't run into any opposing aggro, green/blue flash blockers, or as you mentioned another red player (burn or aggro variety). At least Satyr's damage approaches being worth the drawback...this thread has convinced me the Satyr is testable (I begrudgingly admit) but bottom line, pups suck.
All aggro creatures have the potential to "just sit there" after dealing their 4 damage, if you don't back them up with disruption and removal. Red is stacked with burn spells that allow you to get in for an extra attack or two. And simply having an extra attacking 1-drop can give you an extra attack step that you might not otherwise have if you skip playing your 2-power 1-drops. Your life total is irrelevant in aggro. It's just another resource. Saying that Jackal Pup's drawback is too severe is also saying that City of Brass is bad, or Carnophage is bad. They're not. They use your life as a resource to give you an advantage that would otherwise be unavailable. Pup's drawback has never once cost me a game I would've won had it been without it's drawback. But I've won countless games off the back of his aggression where another 1-drop would've caused me to fall short of reaching exact damage range. Would Pup be better without the drawback? Of course. And one day, we'll have enough Goblin Guides and Lion clones in red to not need it. But that's not even remotely close yet, and without playing Pup (and this new guy) red aggro simply doesn't have the concentration of 1-drops needed to combat control in the cube (which is aggro's ...only... role, really). Bottom line, Pup is necessary.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Bolt kills creatures, which is one of the most important things a card can do, so I don't think that's a great comparison.
I agree. However, this:
Quote from Toad »
And well, as said before, aggro has 19 life points too many. That guy makes a good use of that pool.
Is spot on.
Life is a resource for every decktype. But aggro has even more of it to use than any other deck. Leaving spare life on the table when you could've used it to increase the efficiency of your cards is like leaving unspent mana turn after turn. The player that uses all of their resources as effectively as possible has a distinct advantage over their opponent, and life is a resource that most inexperienced players are unwilling to tap into. Playing a Basic Land over a City of Brass or painland to "preserve your life total" is just as egregious as using a less aggressive 1-drop instead of Pup in your aggro deck. It's a misuse of your available resources, plain and simple.
Is this card good for standard. I'm excited for cube and see so much hate from standard players that say this is trash
As is i think I'm going to cut reckless waif, although I have a soft spot for foil DFC, and put pup and satyr in. I took pup out because we play multiplayer sometimes.
I wouldn't remove any 1-drops to add this guy. As the thread has stated, we're not at the concentration of 1-drops (especially in red) where any new ones should be replacing old 1-drops. You should simply be playing both.
I wouldn't remove any 1-drops to add this guy. As the thread has stated, we're not at the concentration of 1-drops (especially in red) where any new ones should be replacing old 1-drops. You should simply be playing both.
With all due respect I disagree. Aggro decks win most 1v1 drafts I do, why would I push them further?
Reason why my cube is 450 and not 540 :).
I gotta be able to support people than that though, so wizards needs to stop being stingy!!
540 is fine for aggro.
Source: My cube, consistent aggro decks.
My 450 Cube
Which, at an average of 10 people a draft, 2 years ago was not the case, and I think the constant pushing for more cubeable aggro creatures, is a partial reason.
Then you realize that you're Rx Aggro and you don't care about your life total. You just want to push as much damage as you can before your opponent casts Wrath of God. Speaking of which, the Firedrinker helps you *not* have to over-extend in the face of sweepers. I'll gladly trade 1-for-1 with Wrath of God on turn 3-4 after I've hit for anywhere from 3 to 8 damage.
Does this card get owned by mid-range? Yes -- but that's most, if not all aggro decks. The point is that this guy is a must-answer for control (and he doesn't even give them lands like Goblin Guide!) (but Guide is still better).
So you want a strictly better Savannah Lions ...in red?
Jackal Pup is a complete baller, and the drawback is pretty much irrelevant. You lose far less life on average than you do to something like Carnophage or Vampire Lacerator, and in a color that needs it more, and has less self-damaging effects.
So... this is worse than a 1-drop that can't trade with a X/3 at all? It's optional. An added bonus. You don't have to attack into a bigger creature if you don't want to. But it's better to have the option than be playing with a different aggro creature that can't attack into the blocker at all. And, the ability allows you to attack into walls and kill them off in combat.
None of that post makes the least bit of sense to me.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Exactly. Which is why them printing this creature is so damn awesome.
I ...I just... don't.
You and I are clearly have a different understanding of how to evaluate cards. Jackal Pup is a 360 staple, and is the second best red aggro creature. Well, was, now that this card takes the #2 spot. To say that Jackal Pup has no place in a regular cube is just silly, and basically confirms that we have nothing further to discuss.
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I disagree. Jackal Pup is something that you really need to play to get how good it is. I would play it in 360 and all cube size above.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
If they printed a Jackal Pup in every color, I'd probably run them all.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I'm just upset they obsoleted my Pups!
That really happen once. I was winning, too. Before I got Earthquake for 12 due to the pup. It's actually in "This can only happen in cube" thread.
I actually have the same output as you before, believing that the drawback is too much. Then, I played against it. It's really not that big of a drawback compare to what it dish out.
My cube
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
I'm not trying to be mean, but the second sentence basically disproves the first. If you think jackal pup and satyr aren't good cards to support aggro in cube, you don't understand how aggro works. Life loss drawbacks only approach being relevant in aggro when you're running a lot in the same deck (like in over zealous suicide black).
Yeah, yesterday I was expressing to a friend my excitement for this card as a cube maintainer, and he was expressing his disdain as a modern player. This is definitely one of those "cube only cards." It fills a hole we've wanted filled for a long time, and doesn't do much for any other format. I'm sure a standard burn deck will find him a home though.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
I rarely am so cut and dry, but I see no reason a cube over 360 wouldn't play pup, and really he should be in 360s as well.
There aren't enough aggro one drops in red even at 360. And it's not close, either. Pup is a 360 staple unless you run a dragon cube.
I really don't want to sound like I'm being mean, but if you think the drawback is too much, you probably don't understand the concept of aggro all that well.
All aggro creatures have the potential to "just sit there" after dealing their 4 damage, if you don't back them up with disruption and removal. Red is stacked with burn spells that allow you to get in for an extra attack or two. And simply having an extra attacking 1-drop can give you an extra attack step that you might not otherwise have if you skip playing your 2-power 1-drops. Your life total is irrelevant in aggro. It's just another resource. Saying that Jackal Pup's drawback is too severe is also saying that City of Brass is bad, or Carnophage is bad. They're not. They use your life as a resource to give you an advantage that would otherwise be unavailable. Pup's drawback has never once cost me a game I would've won had it been without it's drawback. But I've won countless games off the back of his aggression where another 1-drop would've caused me to fall short of reaching exact damage range. Would Pup be better without the drawback? Of course. And one day, we'll have enough Goblin Guides and Lion clones in red to not need it. But that's not even remotely close yet, and without playing Pup (and this new guy) red aggro simply doesn't have the concentration of 1-drops needed to combat control in the cube (which is aggro's ...only... role, really). Bottom line, Pup is necessary.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Bolt kills creatures, which is one of the most important things a card can do, so I don't think that's a great comparison.
I agree. However, this:
Is spot on.
Life is a resource for every decktype. But aggro has even more of it to use than any other deck. Leaving spare life on the table when you could've used it to increase the efficiency of your cards is like leaving unspent mana turn after turn. The player that uses all of their resources as effectively as possible has a distinct advantage over their opponent, and life is a resource that most inexperienced players are unwilling to tap into. Playing a Basic Land over a City of Brass or painland to "preserve your life total" is just as egregious as using a less aggressive 1-drop instead of Pup in your aggro deck. It's a misuse of your available resources, plain and simple.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
As is i think I'm going to cut reckless waif, although I have a soft spot for foil DFC, and put pup and satyr in. I took pup out because we play multiplayer sometimes.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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With all due respect I disagree. Aggro decks win most 1v1 drafts I do, why would I push them further?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979