He seems pretty mediocre as a curve topper. In the the above, example, I feel like if Purphoros were Hellrider or Hero of Oxid Ridge you wouldn't even need the Siege-Gang Commander to win that game.
I see him more as a token support card.
He's also great with Young Pyro. Each spell has an attached 1/1 and 2 damage to the dome. I would call that a certain standard deck at the least.
I actually think something like the following is a more probable deck and use for this particular god (basically a domri rade deck):
T1: BoP
T2: Countryside Crusher
T3: Purphoros
T4: Siege-Gang Commander
He seems pretty mediocre as a curve topper. In the the above, example, I feel like if Purphoros were Hellrider or Hero of Oxid Ridge you wouldn't even need the Siege-Gang Commander to win that game.
Completely agreed - he's not the greatest aggro curve-topper for that reason. Most traditonal red four drops would get the job done more efficiently and more rapidly for aggro, which is something to always consider. He's totally playable in that sphere of course, but his true strength seems to be in midrange, where you are more likely to develop the big board state and follow up with other creatures or token makers. He could form a good control win condition too, triggering some damage off your utility or mana creatures or just winning himself in the long term. Seeing as red sees considerable midrange and control play in my cube, my interest is piqued, so I'm eager to test him.
He seems pretty mediocre as a curve topper. In the the above, example, I feel like if Purphoros were Hellrider or Hero of Oxid Ridge you wouldn't even need the Siege-Gang Commander to win that game.
Yes, but it's not the whole story. A majority of cards in the cube are suboptimal aggro curve-toppers, or even unplayable in aggro altogether.
Hence my posting the below in response to the same guy:
Completely agreed - he's not the greatest aggro curve-topper for that reason. Most traditonal red four drops would get the job done more efficiently and more rapidly for aggro, which is something to always consider. He's totally playable in that sphere of course, but his true strength seems to be in midrange, where you are more likely to develop the big board state and follow up with other creatures or token makers. He could form a good control win condition too, triggering some damage off your utility or mana creatures or just winning himself in the long term. Seeing as red sees considerable midrange and control play in my cube, my interest is piqued, so I'm eager to test him.
His hammer is good too, and works great with him.
Because evaluating him solely as an aggro four-drop is not a very good idea, in the same vein as I wouldn't assess something like Sneak Attack as an aggro curve-topper. Because it isn't one, at least not in the traditional sense.
Because evaluating him solely as an aggro four-drop is not a very good idea, in the same vein as I wouldn't assess something like Sneak Attack as an aggro curve-topper. Because it isn't one, at least not in the traditional sense.
Precisely... This card have nowhere to be close to aggro. Red is more than aggro though.
Yes, but it's not the whole story. A majority of cards in the cube are suboptimal aggro curve-toppers, or even unplayable in aggro altogether.
Hence my posting the below in response to the same guy:
Because evaluating him solely as an aggro four-drop is not a very good idea, in the same vein as I wouldn't assess something like Sneak Attack as an aggro curve-topper. Because it isn't one, at least not in the traditional sense.
If it's going in a midrange deck, I think a global haste effect will get in for more damage than this ability will, and in a token deck, I think Hero and Hellrider are still better options.
So if there's better options for aggro, midrange and token/archetype decks, what deck is going to benefit more from this card than the current suite of 4-drops that are available?
So if there's better options for aggro, midrange and token/archetype decks, what deck is going to benefit more from this card than the current suite of 4-drops that are available?
Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not arguing about whether it's any good or not, we'll get to that. Regardless of whether there are better options for midrange/tokens/control, which we could reasonably spend hours discussing, dismissing it off the bat because it's not an ideal aggro curve topper just seemed really strange to me, as that is so obviously not its strength, regardless of how good/bad anyone thinks the card is. If they print a 2/2 flying Moat my initial thought wouldn't be 'hmm, this isn't a great aggro curve-topper'. Likewise, I don't see a Jackal Pup and think 'this would be subpar in control'. It just looked like an odd starting point to evaluate the card in any context, so much so that I considered briefly if people were misreading it. That was the only point I was trying to make, really.
As for the power level of the card, there are certainly better options for aggro, as we've both established, although it's not unplayable in there by any stretch. I'd have to sit and look at my list to see if I wanted to cut something to try it as some midrange or control support, because I do think it has some potential there (your mileage may vary, as you have pointed out). If I hadn't just cut the aforementioned Sneak Attack, I'd be happy to try it in that slot. 360 is tight, but the non-creature 4 slot wouldn't mind another card or two.
I am surprised that the red god gets such a positive reaction by some. I immediately ranked him below the green and the the blue gods.
He really needs to get down as early as possible to get a lot of damage triggers from later creatures. Costing 4 is a bit much for this. And the activated ability isn't cheap, either. Unless you use it with token makers, I'd rather have the green god's +2/+2 ability. Finally, he needs creatures to do something, unlike the blue god.
Finally, he needs creatures to do something, unlike the blue god.
Actually, I am concerned that is this is going to be a serious issue for all the God cards, including the blue one, which doesn't exactly do enough without creatures either. My positivity towards any of the gods is based on the assumption that creatures are available, which might turn out to be the nail in their collective god coffin. Sure, it's possible that they all turn out unplayable owing to that fact. But I think it's always good to be optimistic in spoiler season. Better to test something that looks remotely promising and cut it, than never test it and not know if it's good or not in my cube. Testing new cards is half the fun after all.
I immediately ranked him below the green and the the blue gods.
The white one is IMO better than the green one, particularly in light of the lack of creatures concern. He actually does make creatures in a pinch.
The white one is IMO better than the green one, particularly in light of the lack of creatures concern. He actually does make creatures in a pinch.
Making a 2/1 for 2WW (that doesn't contribute to reaching the devotion threshold) is anything but cost effective though. Plus, I like global trample more than global vigilance.
Making a 2/1 for 2WW (that doesn't contribute to reaching the devotion threshold) is anything but cost effective though. Plus, I like global trample more than global vigilance.
Yeah, 2/1 for 2WW is terrible. But it does something on an empty board, which is what we're on about, right?
Why not view him as a midrange and 'big' red support card?
Because I don't think it's a very good midrange or big red card. Those decks tend to be light on permanents (especially ones with lots of mana symbols) and light on creatures (which negatively impact both of his passive abilities).
He seems pretty mediocre as a curve topper. In the the above, example, I feel like if Purphoros were Hellrider or Hero of Oxid Ridge you wouldn't even need the Siege-Gang Commander to win that game.
Totally agreed , but you must admit, it's still very good in that situation no?
Say they play a wall of roots on turn 2 and Qasali pridemage and a goyf on turn 3.
You think hero of oxid ridge or hellrider or going to do THAT much here?
Purphoros -> a deck designed to take advantage of him gives you a chance to go long and draw into the cards to burn them out..
Or have a 6/5 indestructable in play on turn 7 that might actually stand up to their creatures in combat.
Sure agro decks don't generally want to go long, but sometimes they have to.
This card is a card that allows red to go long, and turns all those poor top decks into decent topdecks.
It is also fine as a curve topper, albeit sub-optimal.
Plus, Id obviously rather have hellrider and hero in cube anyway. Those cards are A+ agro 4 drops.
Flametongue Kavu or Avalanche riders aren't anywhere close to as impactful as hellrider/hero in your example too, doesnt mean they arent great.
Because I don't think it's a very good midrange or big red card. Those decks tend to be light on permanents (especially ones with lots of mana symbols) and light on creatures (which negatively impact both of his passive abilities).
I had an excellent big red deck the other day (non-Wildfire), which was mainly burn and 4-6 drops. That deck had plenty of great interactions with this god and would have been thrilled to have it, including Sulfuric Vortex, Koth of the Hammer, Siege-Gang Commander, Guttersnipe, Chandra Pyromaster, etc...this god would have been perfect. Those decks are pretty good (at least this one was) when they come together, and don't sound like the ones you are describing.
This card just seems nutty to me honestly, and pretty easily the best of the "God Cycle" unless the black one pulls out all the stops. Ben Bleiweiss reconfirmed what I was thinking by writing in his daily financial article:
"The best mythic spoiled in the set so far. Works beautifully with many preexisting red strategies, most notably Young Pyromancer decks. Has applications in Modern and potentially in Legacy as well. Unless the black God is really good, I expect this to be the hottest card in the set post-release."
Obviously, other formats aren't cube, etc, etc, but the card just gives a certain angle of attack (MASSIVE amounts of damage-to-the-face potential) that almost no other card in cube can provide.
Maybe red could use it as a catalyst to start pushing a token-esque strategy more. I'd like to have a bunch of cards in red that would make this card good, but sadly, my current composition isn't designed to take advantage of it. Hard aggro want's a more immediate impact from the 4-drop slot and big red uses too few creatures to take full advantage of the two abilities. And red isn't saturated with cheap RR-costed permanents to activate the god reliably. In constructed, it looks like it can be a powerhouse. But in the cube, I just don't see it.
Maybe red could use it as a catalyst to start pushing a token-esque strategy more. I'd like to have a bunch of cards in red that would make this card good, but sadly, my current composition isn't designed to take advantage of it. Hard aggro want's a more immediate impact from the 4-drop slot and big red uses too few creatures to take full advantage of the two abilities. And red isn't saturated with cheap RR-costed permanents to activate the god reliably. In constructed, it looks like it can be a powerhouse. But in the cube, I just don't see it.
I'm honestly not even thinking heavy/mono-red is where he'll be the best. Even if he never becomes a 6/5, I very much like this card in a G/r or W/r shell where red is playing support. Both my white and green sections are very dense with creatures or spells that create/tutor for creatures, and this card gives them a ton of reach and a mana-sink pump effect (that granted is not the cheapest to activate).
We do get creature-heavy red midrange builds - maybe that's why this appealed to us and not to others, and the same could go for Ogre Battledriver who I admired a lot as well during the previous spoiler season. Both these guys are not traditional aggro red creatures but can be ace when followed up with more creatures in a creature-centric shell. The Fires deck that others mentioned could use them too.
I see him doing a lot more work than Chandra, which depresses me to no end. He's also hard to remove, and a very decent burn engine which can potentially also swing for 6 as a bonus.
Sure, hyper aggro doesn't want him, but hyper aggro is easier to stop.
P.S. Also had Boros Reckoner in that red deck, which is a nice devotional card as well as a great card in the archetype.
I also think the two damage for having a dude come in can add up quickly, even more so when in a color that does a lot of that damage-dealing thing as a primary identity. I've been thrilled with Guttersnipe, which is a similar card.
I wouldnt be surprised if the composition of your red section has a pretty big effect on the power of the god.
If you play say both Boros Reckoner and Boggart ram gang, as well as the good double red 2 drops.. Like Burning-tree emissary and kragon dragon lord.. Then add the hammer in the 3 drop slot, this card gets a lot better.
Seige gang commander probably being the best synergistic card with him..
I'd say he's testable at 540+, wouldn't bother with any smaller cubes. It is the 4 mana problem as stated, this guy isn't bad by any means, but there are just better and more consistent options that I would not replace. I want to run a god because there flavor is just unreal, but lets just say for now I'm definitely crossing my fingers for the black god...
I just don't see any archetypes in my cube that would really want this card, but it's certainly a powerful effect. Maybe this guy, Young Pyromancer, and Ogre Battledriver are enough to support a token strategy in red.
I see him more as a token support card.
He's also great with Young Pyro. Each spell has an attached 1/1 and 2 damage to the dome. I would call that a certain standard deck at the least.
I actually think something like the following is a more probable deck and use for this particular god (basically a domri rade deck):
T1: BoP
T2: Countryside Crusher
T3: Purphoros
T4: Siege-Gang Commander
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Completely agreed - he's not the greatest aggro curve-topper for that reason. Most traditonal red four drops would get the job done more efficiently and more rapidly for aggro, which is something to always consider. He's totally playable in that sphere of course, but his true strength seems to be in midrange, where you are more likely to develop the big board state and follow up with other creatures or token makers. He could form a good control win condition too, triggering some damage off your utility or mana creatures or just winning himself in the long term. Seeing as red sees considerable midrange and control play in my cube, my interest is piqued, so I'm eager to test him.
His hammer is good too, and works great with him.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This. This guy gets it.
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Yes, but it's not the whole story. A majority of cards in the cube are suboptimal aggro curve-toppers, or even unplayable in aggro altogether.
Hence my posting the below in response to the same guy:
Because evaluating him solely as an aggro four-drop is not a very good idea, in the same vein as I wouldn't assess something like Sneak Attack as an aggro curve-topper. Because it isn't one, at least not in the traditional sense.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Precisely... This card have nowhere to be close to aggro. Red is more than aggro though.
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If it's going in a midrange deck, I think a global haste effect will get in for more damage than this ability will, and in a token deck, I think Hero and Hellrider are still better options.
So if there's better options for aggro, midrange and token/archetype decks, what deck is going to benefit more from this card than the current suite of 4-drops that are available?
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Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not arguing about whether it's any good or not, we'll get to that. Regardless of whether there are better options for midrange/tokens/control, which we could reasonably spend hours discussing, dismissing it off the bat because it's not an ideal aggro curve topper just seemed really strange to me, as that is so obviously not its strength, regardless of how good/bad anyone thinks the card is. If they print a 2/2 flying Moat my initial thought wouldn't be 'hmm, this isn't a great aggro curve-topper'. Likewise, I don't see a Jackal Pup and think 'this would be subpar in control'. It just looked like an odd starting point to evaluate the card in any context, so much so that I considered briefly if people were misreading it. That was the only point I was trying to make, really.
As for the power level of the card, there are certainly better options for aggro, as we've both established, although it's not unplayable in there by any stretch. I'd have to sit and look at my list to see if I wanted to cut something to try it as some midrange or control support, because I do think it has some potential there (your mileage may vary, as you have pointed out). If I hadn't just cut the aforementioned Sneak Attack, I'd be happy to try it in that slot. 360 is tight, but the non-creature 4 slot wouldn't mind another card or two.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
He really needs to get down as early as possible to get a lot of damage triggers from later creatures. Costing 4 is a bit much for this. And the activated ability isn't cheap, either. Unless you use it with token makers, I'd rather have the green god's +2/+2 ability. Finally, he needs creatures to do something, unlike the blue god.
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Actually, I am concerned that is this is going to be a serious issue for all the God cards, including the blue one, which doesn't exactly do enough without creatures either. My positivity towards any of the gods is based on the assumption that creatures are available, which might turn out to be the nail in their collective god coffin. Sure, it's possible that they all turn out unplayable owing to that fact. But I think it's always good to be optimistic in spoiler season. Better to test something that looks remotely promising and cut it, than never test it and not know if it's good or not in my cube. Testing new cards is half the fun after all.
The white one is IMO better than the green one, particularly in light of the lack of creatures concern. He actually does make creatures in a pinch.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Making a 2/1 for 2WW (that doesn't contribute to reaching the devotion threshold) is anything but cost effective though. Plus, I like global trample more than global vigilance.
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Yeah, 2/1 for 2WW is terrible. But it does something on an empty board, which is what we're on about, right?
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
-AA
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Because I don't think it's a very good midrange or big red card. Those decks tend to be light on permanents (especially ones with lots of mana symbols) and light on creatures (which negatively impact both of his passive abilities).
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Totally agreed , but you must admit, it's still very good in that situation no?
Now imagine you had a mediocore hand of
Turn 1 Spikeshot elder
Turn 2 Ash Zealot
Turn 3 Burn
Turn 4 - ?
Say they play a wall of roots on turn 2 and Qasali pridemage and a goyf on turn 3.
You think hero of oxid ridge or hellrider or going to do THAT much here?
Purphoros -> a deck designed to take advantage of him gives you a chance to go long and draw into the cards to burn them out..
Or have a 6/5 indestructable in play on turn 7 that might actually stand up to their creatures in combat.
Sure agro decks don't generally want to go long, but sometimes they have to.
This card is a card that allows red to go long, and turns all those poor top decks into decent topdecks.
It is also fine as a curve topper, albeit sub-optimal.
Plus, Id obviously rather have hellrider and hero in cube anyway. Those cards are A+ agro 4 drops.
Flametongue Kavu or Avalanche riders aren't anywhere close to as impactful as hellrider/hero in your example too, doesnt mean they arent great.
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I had an excellent big red deck the other day (non-Wildfire), which was mainly burn and 4-6 drops. That deck had plenty of great interactions with this god and would have been thrilled to have it, including Sulfuric Vortex, Koth of the Hammer, Siege-Gang Commander, Guttersnipe, Chandra Pyromaster, etc...this god would have been perfect. Those decks are pretty good (at least this one was) when they come together, and don't sound like the ones you are describing.
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Obviously, other formats aren't cube, etc, etc, but the card just gives a certain angle of attack (MASSIVE amounts of damage-to-the-face potential) that almost no other card in cube can provide.
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I'm honestly not even thinking heavy/mono-red is where he'll be the best. Even if he never becomes a 6/5, I very much like this card in a G/r or W/r shell where red is playing support. Both my white and green sections are very dense with creatures or spells that create/tutor for creatures, and this card gives them a ton of reach and a mana-sink pump effect (that granted is not the cheapest to activate).
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Sure, hyper aggro doesn't want him, but hyper aggro is easier to stop.
I also think the two damage for having a dude come in can add up quickly, even more so when in a color that does a lot of that damage-dealing thing as a primary identity. I've been thrilled with Guttersnipe, which is a similar card.
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If you play say both Boros Reckoner and Boggart ram gang, as well as the good double red 2 drops.. Like Burning-tree emissary and kragon dragon lord.. Then add the hammer in the 3 drop slot, this card gets a lot better.
Seige gang commander probably being the best synergistic card with him..
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