There is something to be said for utility. Creatures that don't quite make it in either mode but give you two options can be better than they seem. I get tired of coming into the thread and seeing the creature evaluated on it's base stats. If anything, the better mode is the Bestow side. Of course it is highly plausible that it's not playable regardless. Especially this one, which I don't think is very good.
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To be fair though, in every thread I see you evaluate Bestow creatures as though they literally didn't have the Bestow ability. Maybe none of them are good enough, but you seems slanted.
That's because Bestow is way overcosted by cube standards. The creature with Bestow either has to be A) playable enough in its primary mode that Bestow is basically just a bonus, or B) the Bestow cost needs to be pushed enough that it would be worth playing in Aura mode; creature quality be damned.
Even the best of the currently available bestow creatures haven't been good enough for our group, because either the creature was too lackluster or the Bestow cost was too expensive. Usually both, actually.
(I think I typed that out somewhere before, but I can't remember if it was in this thread or not.)
That's because Bestow is way overcosted by cube standards. The creature with Bestow either has to be A) playable enough in its primary mode that Bestow is basically just a bonus, or B) the Bestow cost needs to be pushed enough that it would be worth playing in Aura mode; creature quality be damned.
Even the best of the currently available bestow creatures haven't been good enough for our group, because either the creature was too lackluster or the Bestow cost was too expensive. Usually both, actually.
(I think I typed that out somewhere before, but I can't remember if it was in this thread or not.)
You did and I read it there. I don't think you account for the fact that this is both of those cards. Also, I think the aura version is better than you are treating it because it leaves behind the creature afterwards and you rarely seem to account for that.
On the other hand, I do tend to agree with you that Bestow is not getting pushed enough for the cube. I think Boon Satyr is close if you support green aggro and/or run a large cube. I think the black one is actually not bad if you have room in your black 5-drop slot and might make it into medium sized cubes. All the others are pretty far off IMO.
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I don't think you account for the fact that this is both of those cards. Also, I think the aura version is better than you are treating it because it leaves behind the creature afterwards and you rarely seem to account for that.
I know how the ability works, and I account for both of these things. After taking them into account (via testing the semi-playable Bestow cards in the cube), I've concluded that the current (and spoiled) Bestow options are still too overcosted for the cube.
When they either push the creature or the ability, I'll be all for it. As it is now, they're all way too fair.
I agree with wtwlf. I think bestow is an awesome ability. I love creature enchantments and the thought of getting a bunch of playable versions is very exciting. However, even with the bonus is really big (like +4/+4 flying and first strike), paying seven for that is just too fair for cube. Cards like Hopeful Eidolon and Leafcrown Dryad are both fine cards, but paying four for the enchantment version is just too much.
This has been said already, but one side or the other needs to be pushed in order for a bestow creature to really be good enough. Give me a 1cc two power guy with bestow of three. I'd play that for sure.
I remember thinking Bestow have a most cube potential. However, that's only going to be true if they're fine with pushing the creature. The cost as is is a bit too fair, and in cube, I like my stuff to be unfair.
It really did surprised me that I end up with a cubeable Heroic card and not cubeable Bestow card in Theros, though.
I would love it if Bestow were more competitive, since it would add some extra interaction. It's hands down the best enchant-creature ability they've made, so it would be awesome if they come back to it later, too.
I think one of the things hampering the power-level is the fact that the bestow has to cost more than the creature, since the abilities are symmetrical. It's a great design and easy to use, but it prevents them from making 'modal' creatures, like a 1/3-or-3/1 creature, or a discard-or-draw creature. Or like a Wall of Blossoms that bestows as a Rancor.
As it stands, the best possible bestow cards are aggro cards, and they have to have very competitive mana costs to fit into cubes. There are so many ways to make it better, WotC is really showing some restraint on their designs. As much as it fails in cube, it's still a very good thing.
Oracle could be interesting if there weren't so many ridiculously good 4 drops in red already. This one is much less punisher-y because opponent often won't be able to know the correct choice
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
I wouldn't play a 5/3 haste for 2RR. Not when there's so many better options that come with some direct damage or evasion attached. Oracle is strictly worse than that vanilla 5/3 haste, so it shouldn't see any play in cubes.
I agree with you that this isn't cubable. Stuff like hell rider and flame tongue are too much better. But unlike most punisher cards this one isn't strictly worse than the 5/3 haster. Your opponent doesn't know what is in your hand, so can't necessarily make the optimal decision.
I would never give someone the 3/1 and spell, so it's a 5/3 with the drawback of being a 3/1 if I've seen your hand, and a 3/1 if you topdeck it. I think it's terrible.
The other thing that is terrible about this card is how different the two options are. It's really easy for your opponent to have a situation where there is a clear best choice. If your hand is near empty or they have peaked at it, they probably make the correct choice most of the time.
I think this card could have cost 3 and still not been cubable.
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Oracle is clearly not good enough for cube, but it does give me some hope for tribute, as I think it is a tribute spell that could actually work because it uses hidden information. If it had, for example, been a 3/3 with tribute 2 or a 2/2 for 3 with tribute 2 it might have been good enough because you aren't always getting the worse option, and a lot of times when you want the bigger, hasty body you will get it.
The amount of good cards spoiled is too damn low!
About half the set spoiled already and I am only interested in the Cat King ... Very disappointing ...
Born of the Gods is to Theros as
Gatecrash was to Return to Ravnica.
But there's still time to get a handful of other playables and have this not be the case.
I have noticed an effort by WotC to spread out the good spoilers, since the last couple of sets. As it was with Theros, so it shall be with BoTG. Maybe.
Maybe we can get a green 2-power 1-drop along the lines of the Soldier/Satyr/Hero that we got for the other aggro colors in the last set? That would be super (well, for me anyways).
I know. Still hoping for the Jungle Lion variant with bestow. It won't happen, but that doesn't change what I want, damnit.
I'm guessing they'll save the Tattermunge Maniac/Jungle Lion bestow(s) for set 3. Set one had primarily square stats (P=T). Set two has some non-square stats. Set three would then evolve slightly further and allow drawbacks, but on efficient bodies maybe.
But yeah, this whole set has been rather uninspired.
Losing the aggressively costed base bodies + exciting effects of Monstrous for a version that gives you either an aggressively costed french vanilla or a somewhat interesting effect, but whichever one is least beneficial as chosen by your opponent is snoresville.
Bestow and Heroic continue to be a series of clunkers.
Inspired has some potential, but the most pushed of them just appears to be a way worse Dark Confidant
Devotion (the other big winner from last set) appears to be reduced to awkward instants and even more awkward multicolored gods, with higher devotion requirements, higher costs, narrower abilities, and no actives.
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On another note, does anyone have opinions on the U/B god? It can mill an insane amount, especially if you turn on devotion. I suppose the colors it is in make it harder for you to have a large board by turn 5-6, but it has great kill potential.
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That's because Bestow is way overcosted by cube standards. The creature with Bestow either has to be A) playable enough in its primary mode that Bestow is basically just a bonus, or B) the Bestow cost needs to be pushed enough that it would be worth playing in Aura mode; creature quality be damned.
Even the best of the currently available bestow creatures haven't been good enough for our group, because either the creature was too lackluster or the Bestow cost was too expensive. Usually both, actually.
(I think I typed that out somewhere before, but I can't remember if it was in this thread or not.)
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You did and I read it there. I don't think you account for the fact that this is both of those cards. Also, I think the aura version is better than you are treating it because it leaves behind the creature afterwards and you rarely seem to account for that.
On the other hand, I do tend to agree with you that Bestow is not getting pushed enough for the cube. I think Boon Satyr is close if you support green aggro and/or run a large cube. I think the black one is actually not bad if you have room in your black 5-drop slot and might make it into medium sized cubes. All the others are pretty far off IMO.
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I know how the ability works, and I account for both of these things. After taking them into account (via testing the semi-playable Bestow cards in the cube), I've concluded that the current (and spoiled) Bestow options are still too overcosted for the cube.
When they either push the creature or the ability, I'll be all for it. As it is now, they're all way too fair.
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This has been said already, but one side or the other needs to be pushed in order for a bestow creature to really be good enough. Give me a 1cc two power guy with bestow of three. I'd play that for sure.
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It really did surprised me that I end up with a cubeable Heroic card and not cubeable Bestow card in Theros, though.
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I think one of the things hampering the power-level is the fact that the bestow has to cost more than the creature, since the abilities are symmetrical. It's a great design and easy to use, but it prevents them from making 'modal' creatures, like a 1/3-or-3/1 creature, or a discard-or-draw creature. Or like a Wall of Blossoms that bestows as a Rancor.
As it stands, the best possible bestow cards are aggro cards, and they have to have very competitive mana costs to fit into cubes. There are so many ways to make it better, WotC is really showing some restraint on their designs. As much as it fails in cube, it's still a very good thing.
They could have, and should have imo, gone nuts with the WUBRG one. I'm talking haste, lifelink, trample, the works.
I like it but it's a shame about the CMC. I think this is the right direction for tribute though, just pushed that little bit more.
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More often than not they'll just let him be a 5/3 haste for 4 which is very meh.
Who's eating crow?
I agree with you that this isn't cubable. Stuff like hell rider and flame tongue are too much better. But unlike most punisher cards this one isn't strictly worse than the 5/3 haster. Your opponent doesn't know what is in your hand, so can't necessarily make the optimal decision.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I think this card could have cost 3 and still not been cubable.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
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Born of the Gods is to Theros as
Gatecrash was to Return to Ravnica.
But there's still time to get a handful of other playables and have this not be the case.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I know. Still hoping for the Jungle Lion variant with bestow. It won't happen, but that doesn't change what I want, damnit.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm guessing they'll save the Tattermunge Maniac/Jungle Lion bestow(s) for set 3. Set one had primarily square stats (P=T). Set two has some non-square stats. Set three would then evolve slightly further and allow drawbacks, but on efficient bodies maybe.
But yeah, this whole set has been rather uninspired.
Losing the aggressively costed base bodies + exciting effects of Monstrous for a version that gives you either an aggressively costed french vanilla or a somewhat interesting effect, but whichever one is least beneficial as chosen by your opponent is snoresville.
Bestow and Heroic continue to be a series of clunkers.
Inspired has some potential, but the most pushed of them just appears to be a way worse Dark Confidant
Devotion (the other big winner from last set) appears to be reduced to awkward instants and even more awkward multicolored gods, with higher devotion requirements, higher costs, narrower abilities, and no actives.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
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On another note, does anyone have opinions on the U/B god? It can mill an insane amount, especially if you turn on devotion. I suppose the colors it is in make it harder for you to have a large board by turn 5-6, but it has great kill potential.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981