Honestly, I'm bad at reading Planeswalkers in Cube so I don't have anything to start the conversation with except for here she is, the Simic Planeswalker we've wanted. She's a bit of a Swiss Army Knife. A bit of protection for herself, neutralization of a fatty, ramp, card draw, poops out monsters if you can get there. And it's not like this is Boros - an okay PW can easily crack medium-big cubes' Simic lists.
She reads like a bad Ajani Vengeant. A worse +1 that is situationally better (stops damage from one or two planeswalkers and... Cursed Scroll?). A minus ability that would have been acceptable on a 3CC monocolor walker like Jace Beleren but is a far cry from a 4CC multicolor walker (the extra land drop seems mostly irrelevant past turn 4). Half its casting cost in loyalty, making the minus ability much less usable. And an ultimate that is nowhere near the usual victory smash of other walkers (see Assemble the Legion for a similar outcome).
Simic Ramp might use this, locking down threats while it drops more land, supercharging its Cultivates, and ending with the massive threats it wants that obsolete most anything on the table. But I don't think this is the walker I wanted. I'd put it on par with Zegana on first impression.
And it's not like this is Boros - an okay PW can easily crack medium-big cubes' Simic lists.
I don't think it's easy as there are quite a few options at that level. But I certainly believe she's a role-player who caters to a narrow archetype and not much more.
This seems extremely subpar, seeing as how it dies to so many 3-damage burn spells. Probably fine in large Cubes, but certainly not in 360, 450 or 540.
I don't think it's easy as there are quite a few options at that level. But I certainly believe she's a role-player who caters to a narrow archetype and not much more.
That's legit. I think what we're seeing with recent Planeswalkers in regards to Cube is more case-by-case (Cube-by-Cube?) evaluation as opposed to universal. I remember with Ashiok guys like WhiteWolf were very clear that his play group wouldn't want a card like that. I know that the only UG deck that regularly sees play for us is Opposition and this is the card I want in that deck, especially in a control mirror.
I may play it in my combo cube.
Ok, so before I get weird looks, let me explain
+1: Its relevant against something like Tinkersteel and a few other tricks.
-1: Turboland is a supported Archtype, so extra land drops+ card draw is actually fairly good.
-5: Not why I really want this card, but if it does come up, 9/9s arent anything to scoff at....
That's legit. I think what we're seeing with recent Planeswalkers in regards to Cube is more case-by-case (Cube-by-Cube?) evaluation as opposed to universal. I remember with Ashiok guys like WhiteWolf were very clear that his play group wouldn't want a card like that. I know that the only UG deck that regularly sees play for us is Opposition and this is the card I want in that deck, especially in a control mirror.
We also cut Mystic Snake at Gatecrash so...
I would have to agree. Planeswalkers are designed now to play specific roles, which makes it difficult to include them based on general applicability. Especially with the established competition in cubes!
Based on the spoiler hints, I was expecting something with Scry, Temporal Spring as a minus (with nonland clause of course, gosh Wizards! ;)), and some ridiculous Garruk, Primal Hunter ultimate with krakens everywhere. I think that would have been fun at 4UG or even 3UG
She reads like a bad Ajani Vengeant. A worse +1 that is situationally better (stops damage from one or two planeswalkers and... Cursed Scroll?). A minus ability that would have been acceptable on a 3CC monocolor walker like Jace Beleren but is a far cry from a 4CC multicolor walker (the extra land drop seems mostly irrelevant past turn 4). Half its casting cost in loyalty, making the minus ability much less usable. And an ultimate that is nowhere near the usual victory smash of other walkers (see Assemble the Legion for a similar outcome).
Simic Ramp might use this, locking down threats while it drops more land, supercharging its Cultivates, and ending with the massive threats it wants that obsolete most anything on the table. But I don't think this is the walker I wanted. I'd put it on par with Zegana on first impression.
How is her plus worse then ajani vengeant's? Target permanent doesnt untap, is completely different from target permanent deals no damage, fogging a creature can be pretty damn good and i think its being vastly underestimated in the discussion so far. Its essentially a worse Tamiyo +1, which is understandable. I don't think she is super strong but thats just incorrect. I agree its about on zegana level, but it doesn't ever kill you, so thats a plus in my book. (When zegana was in my cube she killed its caster multiple times).
I'll definitely wait till its cheap to test it in cube though as i think it will be in the single digits at some point.
I like her. Compare to Ral Zarek; Her +1 is much better against creature decks (Tamiyo variant), but without potential synergies. She'll often be 2x Explore as opposed to 2x Bolt; here the opposite comparison works, as Bolt is better against creature decks but Explore has lots of synergy in-color. While she has a lower starting loyalty (which leaves her within Bolt range, her biggest drawback), her ultimate is actually attainable, since her defensive ability is the +1.
Frankly, Simic is by far the weakest guild in multicolor. It's been a long time since Edric, Snake, or Predator really impressed me, and Kiora seems to work far better with what Simic actually wants to be doing. I wouldn't just slam it without testing, but she definitely seems to have an easy niche to slide into.
Her biggest weakness seems to be starting at 2 Loyalty. The simic multicolor cards are fairly lacking in my cube so a walker would be a welcome addition.
I just realized you can blank an opposing Sulfuric Vortex; not completely irrelevant!
Not only Vortex, but also stuff like Shrine of Burning Rage, Cursed Scroll, opposing planeswalkers, and the Masticores. Easy to miss the permanent line at first glance. Granted, with the artifacts they can often just wait until your turn, but she hoses Ajani Vengeant pretty hard.
I think the "dies to bolt" argument is a little bit weak here. It certainly does, but there's only one deck you really need to worry about that against, and the usual Simic suspects aren't particularly good against that deck either.
I just realized you can blank an opposing Sulfuric Vortex; not completely irrelevant!
If you target an opposing Sulfuric Vortex, then you are giving the opponent 2 life. When it triggers on their upkeep, the damage is prevented, but when it comes back to your turn, the Kiora shield is gone, so you'll still get hit by it.
Aside from that, I'll try her out in my cube when she comes out since UG ramp is a popular archetype to draft in my cube.
How is her plus worse then ajani vengeant's? Target permanent doesnt untap, is completely different from target permanent deals no damage, fogging a creature can be pretty damn good and i think its being vastly underestimated in the discussion so far.
It's worse because you can't lock down lands, mana rocks, mana dorks and other utility dudes and artifacts that don't deal damage but have relevant abilities besides dealing damage. Seems pretty clear to me.
It looks really weak actually, starting at 2 loyalty for 4CC... But I love the -1 ability. It's kinda sad that it can't handle it twice in a row, make it worse than Beleren at drawing....
I'm suspecting she might make #4-#5 in Simic. If she have a 3 starting loyalty, I'll probably include in my cube. As is, probably not. Who knows, maybe she'll surprise me.
Ah, and one more thing, I just love her ultimate ability.
I like her. Compare to Ral Zarek; Her +1 is much better against creature decks (Tamiyo variant), but without potential synergies. She'll often be 2x Explore as opposed to 2x Bolt; here the opposite comparison works, as Bolt is better against creature decks but Explore has lots of synergy in-color. While she has a lower starting loyalty (which leaves her within Bolt range, her biggest drawback), her ultimate is actually attainable, since her defensive ability is the +1.
Frankly, Simic is by far the weakest guild in multicolor. It's been a long time since Edric, Snake, or Predator really impressed me, and Kiora seems to work far better with what Simic actually wants to be doing. I wouldn't just slam it without testing, but she definitely seems to have an easy niche to slide into.
If I compare Ral to her I immediately notice Ral Kills her when he hits the field since green ramps her out a turn before he can get out in blue/ red
Simic is so weak I think she deserves a test, even at 360. I certainly like her more than mystic snake and simic charm. She does protect herself, grant CA, and have a reachable ultimate. Horrible starting loyalty for the cost, though.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
It's a planeswalker, so those calling her weak should probably take a step back as they are historically nearly impossible to fully appreciate without actual playtime behind them. Personally I think she's very good in a color combination that will play her early and be able to protect her very well.
I think she's decent. At 3 starting loyalty, she could've been something great. But she can come down and isolate a threat (which happens to protect her at the same time) that also kinda removes their best blocker in terms of protecting your attackers. Her - ability is really strong, and would've been made much better by her having an extra starting loyalty. I think the ultimate is very good, and given the defensive nature of the + ability, will be obtainable in the cube. Not on the level of Ral Zarek exactly, but still probably much better than she looks.
However, I think that Simic's gold cards are very good, and it'll be hard to crack in. If we get another great green fatty in BNG, the importance of SSS as a Natural Order target might dwindle down a bit, leaving me an opening to slot this 'walker in for testing.
Honestly, I'm bad at reading Planeswalkers in Cube so I don't have anything to start the conversation with except for here she is, the Simic Planeswalker we've wanted. She's a bit of a Swiss Army Knife. A bit of protection for herself, neutralization of a fatty, ramp, card draw, poops out monsters if you can get there. And it's not like this is Boros - an okay PW can easily crack medium-big cubes' Simic lists.
Simic Ramp might use this, locking down threats while it drops more land, supercharging its Cultivates, and ending with the massive threats it wants that obsolete most anything on the table. But I don't think this is the walker I wanted. I'd put it on par with Zegana on first impression.
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I don't think it's easy as there are quite a few options at that level. But I certainly believe she's a role-player who caters to a narrow archetype and not much more.
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That's legit. I think what we're seeing with recent Planeswalkers in regards to Cube is more case-by-case (Cube-by-Cube?) evaluation as opposed to universal. I remember with Ashiok guys like WhiteWolf were very clear that his play group wouldn't want a card like that. I know that the only UG deck that regularly sees play for us is Opposition and this is the card I want in that deck, especially in a control mirror.
We also cut Mystic Snake at Gatecrash so...
Ok, so before I get weird looks, let me explain
+1: Its relevant against something like Tinkersteel and a few other tricks.
-1: Turboland is a supported Archtype, so extra land drops+ card draw is actually fairly good.
-5: Not why I really want this card, but if it does come up, 9/9s arent anything to scoff at....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI would have to agree. Planeswalkers are designed now to play specific roles, which makes it difficult to include them based on general applicability. Especially with the established competition in cubes!
Based on the spoiler hints, I was expecting something with Scry, Temporal Spring as a minus (with nonland clause of course, gosh Wizards! ;)), and some ridiculous Garruk, Primal Hunter ultimate with krakens everywhere. I think that would have been fun at 4UG or even 3UG
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How is her plus worse then ajani vengeant's? Target permanent doesnt untap, is completely different from target permanent deals no damage, fogging a creature can be pretty damn good and i think its being vastly underestimated in the discussion so far. Its essentially a worse Tamiyo +1, which is understandable. I don't think she is super strong but thats just incorrect. I agree its about on zegana level, but it doesn't ever kill you, so thats a plus in my book. (When zegana was in my cube she killed its caster multiple times).
I'll definitely wait till its cheap to test it in cube though as i think it will be in the single digits at some point.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Frankly, Simic is by far the weakest guild in multicolor. It's been a long time since Edric, Snake, or Predator really impressed me, and Kiora seems to work far better with what Simic actually wants to be doing. I wouldn't just slam it without testing, but she definitely seems to have an easy niche to slide into.
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Not only Vortex, but also stuff like Shrine of Burning Rage, Cursed Scroll, opposing planeswalkers, and the Masticores. Easy to miss the permanent line at first glance. Granted, with the artifacts they can often just wait until your turn, but she hoses Ajani Vengeant pretty hard.
I think the "dies to bolt" argument is a little bit weak here. It certainly does, but there's only one deck you really need to worry about that against, and the usual Simic suspects aren't particularly good against that deck either.
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If you target an opposing Sulfuric Vortex, then you are giving the opponent 2 life. When it triggers on their upkeep, the damage is prevented, but when it comes back to your turn, the Kiora shield is gone, so you'll still get hit by it.
Aside from that, I'll try her out in my cube when she comes out since UG ramp is a popular archetype to draft in my cube.
It's worse because you can't lock down lands, mana rocks, mana dorks and other utility dudes and artifacts that don't deal damage but have relevant abilities besides dealing damage. Seems pretty clear to me.
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I'd like to snag a foil version, but that won't be for awhile.
Though who knows, perhaps there will be better Simic cards being released with the upcoming expansion.
Ah, and one more thing, I just love her ultimate ability.
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If I compare Ral to her I immediately notice Ral Kills her when he hits the field since green ramps her out a turn before he can get out in blue/ red
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However, I think that Simic's gold cards are very good, and it'll be hard to crack in. If we get another great green fatty in BNG, the importance of SSS as a Natural Order target might dwindle down a bit, leaving me an opening to slot this 'walker in for testing.
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