I really like these guys. With the exception of Overbeing, they're all at or above curve in terms of their abilities. Plus, they fit into an under-utilized cmc (5 drop).
Yes, they're insanely color intensive, but aren't they worth it? If these stick, you'll will (more often or not).
I want to discuss these guys in terms of giving them a chance. I recognize that there's solid reasons for not running them, but I want to challenge conventional wisdom. (Also, if this helps, I'm only looking at them for a larger Cube whose pool is restricted to Modern-legal cards.)
Thoughts?
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They just don't go in very many decks. And those that they do go in, they don't really support the dominant strategies (Except the B/R and W/G ones, which both have better options.)
I used to love these guys when I played casual magic at uni. However, none of them pass the terminate test, except Oversoul on a technicality due to protection, that one is still hit by white removal though.
They do all have quite the power behind them but then so do a lot of other 5 drops which have much nicer casting requirements. Why do you feel the 5cc slot is underrepresented? It's not something I've noticed since each colour has 2 - 5 good candidates for that slot which tends to be enough.
Deus of Calamity is a passable roleplayer as a 5-drop big enough to survive Wildfire and Destructive Force while also piling on the LD, but as stated, the color-intensity makes these very difficult to play.
Plus, there are plenty of good five drops. 450 lists can't even run all of the best ones.
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I play the whole cycle in my all gold, budget cube. They are sooo cool. That said, they are def too low on the cost/power scale for my regular cube. The GW one is one of the best, but pretty hard to case on t5. Rather have Kalonian Hydra every time.
Ok, the high-intensity mana-cost issue seems to be the reason most people here are dismissing them without much thought. Honestly though, the requirement is not as bad as you might think. They can be played in two different types on mono-colored decks just fine as well as a dual deck containing their express hybrid color combination with no problem. The tricky part is when you are trying to splash a third color with them or trying to play colorless lands; they don't play well in either scenario. However, I would argue that you rarely "need" to splash a third color or play colorless lands. The situation can be further avoided if you pick up one of these guys fairly early and commit yourself to at most two colors.
Additionally, I would contend that with devotion and mono-color drafting strategies potentially becoming a thing in cube these guys have become stronger than ever. I know creatures like Primalcrux, Phyrexian Obliterator, Geralf's Messenger, Seismic Assault, Leatherback Baloth, etc... have been given new life with devotion, and these spirit avatars potentially have more flexable mana-costs than any of these. Even cards like Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate, Dungrove Elder, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, etc... that aren't specifically about mana symbols in casting costs but are basic-land-centered cater to mono-colored types of sub-themes, and by extension - these spirit avatars.
Another issue for many might be that they are not the third, fourth, or "x" best card in a certain guild, and that because the guilds are so deep in playables and so shallow in slots designated to them there simply isn't enough room - even if you wanted to try out these guys. To fix this problem, I would suggest categorizing these guys as "mono-colored" - since that is primarily how they play.
Ok, the high-intensity mana-cost issue seems to be the reason most people here are dismissing them without much thought.
No, it's the reason why most people cut them from their cubes after playing with them and realizing that the cost is atrocious.
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However, I would argue that you rarely "need" to plash a third color or play colorless lands.
I would argue that I rarely "need" a 5-drop with a cost of :symbr::symbr::symbr::symbr::symbr:. I'd much rather find a 5-drop with a better cost than exclude good colorless lands or opt not to splash for a bomb off-color card just to run one of these dudes.
...........
It's not just your potential 3rd splash color or colorless lands that interfere with the cost. It also can't accept colorless mana from manafacts, and that's a disappointing drawback for a 5-drop. Especially the ones that would see play in midrange and control decks. No off-color moxen, no fast mana, no Mind Stone mana, etc. Bummer.
Lastly (and most importantly), they're not even that good! There aren't any mono-colored 5-drops with much better casting costs in the cube that these dudes are even better than.
if these all cost (replace GW with whatever color they are)3GW i doubt many of them would be good enough. Much less being actually hard to cast. I'm no math expert but i'd say the average casting cost of one of these behemoths in cube would be 6 or 7, for which it is very hard to make it into cube.
I have to agree with wtwlf. I'm not excluding them because I haven't considered them. I'm excluding them because even in my massive 900 cube they felt underpowered and unnecessary compared to multicolor and even monocolor options.
In the context of a Modern-only large cube, Deity of Scars does a passable impersonation of Spiritmonger.
As for the rest, Deus of Calamity, Demigod of Revenge, Divinity of Pride, Nobilis of War and Oversoul of Dusk are all potential roleplayers since they have more impactful bodies and/or effects when they hit play. The others I would not ever play with, since those awful mana costs are paired with undersized bodies and/or lack of protection.
The only one that is reasonably costed in terms of what you get considering a very difficult cost (which will constrict the non-basics you run and will prevent a third splash colour) is the Oversoul of Dusk, who is very resilient and hard to block. However, he's just not good enough to make the cut against the other G/W cards I run.
The interaction with Devotion is OK, but how many devotion cards do you need to run to even enhance the worth of these guys? Something like a God will be 'turned on' by less colour intensive cards, so you really need something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Master of Waves to even make it a real combo, both of whom are somewhat fringe. Even then, there are more potent and flexible real combos.
These cards are also many times more narrow than something that costs say 1WG; I can splash for that card in my W/R deck, but I can never splash for Oversoul of Dusk. It's the same reason I cut Prime Speaker Zegana, and these are many times more problematic than the Merfolk. The ease of casting a card in a deck of purely its own colours isn't the only criterion to consider.
Ok, the high-intensity mana-cost issue seems to be the reason most people here are dismissing them without much thought. Honestly though, the requirement is not as bad as you might think. They can be played in two different types on mono-colored decks just fine as well as a dual deck containing their express hybrid color combination with no problem. The tricky part is when you are trying to splash a third color with them or trying to play colorless lands; they don't play well in either scenario. However, I would argue that you rarely "need" to plash a third color or play colorless lands. The situation can be further avoided if you pick up one of these guys fairly early and commit yourself to at most two colors.
Additionally, I would contend that with devotion and mono-color drafting strategies potentially becoming a thing in cube these guys have become stronger than ever. I know creatures like Primalcrux, Phyrexian Obliterator, Geralf's Messenger, Seismic Assault, Leatherback Baloth, etc... have been given new life with devotion, and these spirit avatars potentially have more flexable mana-costs than any of these. Even cards like Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate, Dungrove Elder, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, etc... that aren't specifically about mana symbols in casting costs but are basic-land-centered cater to mono-colored types of sub-themes, and by extension - these spirit avatars.
Another issue for many might be that they are not the third, fourth, or "x" best card in a certain guild, and that because the guilds are so deep in playables and so shallow in slots designated to them there simply isn't enough room - even if you wanted to try out these guys. To fix this problem, I would suggest categorizing these guys as "mono-colored" - since that is primarily how they play.
Another problem with the cost is that you can't splash into them. They can only be played if your deck plays exactly those two colors no third color or colorless lands. For example most blue/black decks can splash white for Detention Sphere or Vindicate but never for Divinity of Pride.
And IMO this is very important to determine if a gold card is cubable or not. If no one will ever think on splashing a color for it, not even as sideboard option, then probably it's not worth the guild/shard slot.
These guys are probably a bit more valid for Multiplayer / EDH than traditional cubes.
That said, some of them are too underpowered, even there.
I am currently running Overbeing of Myth and Dominus of Fealty, and I'd probably consider Divinity of Pride, Oversoul of Dusk and Godhead of Awe if I had them.
That said, Oversoul and Dominus would be line-ball (Dominus is very good once it's out in MP, but very hard to get out).
I wouldn't even bother considering Deity, Nobilis, Deus or Demigod.
Ghastlord is good, but also lineball - I dropped it for Consuming Aberration when GTC came out.
Its easy to get caught up in the excitement of playing a cycle in your cube and not considering what your cube really needs. You have to consider what each color wants to be doing and what each color pair wants to be doing and if these cards fit the bill then you can start to consider them. Try to avoid falling into the trap of following a cycle just because.
Thats not to say you shouldn't try it. Throw them in for a draft and see what people think. If one or two ends up working out well then thats awesome, but I see these pretty late picks in a lot of cubes since you can't splash them or play them on time with colorless lands. I play a lot of 1 on 1 drafts and these cards would be complete throwaways in those formats 90% of the time because they will be too restrictive. I avoid triple costed cards for that reason.
Its easy to get caught up in the excitement of playing a cycle in your cube and not considering what your cube really needs. You have to consider what each color wants to be doing and what each color pair wants to be doing and if these cards fit the bill then you can start to consider them. Try to avoid falling into the trap of following a cycle just because.
Thats not to say you shouldn't try it. Throw them in for a draft and see what people think. If one or two ends up working out well then thats awesome, but I see these pretty late picks in a lot of cubes since you can't splash them or play them on time with colorless lands. I play a lot of 1 on 1 drafts and these cards would be complete throwaways in those formats 90% of the time because they will be too restrictive. I avoid triple costed cards for that reason.
I doubt anyone was advocating playing the whole cycle.
In regard to actually playing with them, I've had four in my cube since its inception, and at various points have had a fifth and even sixth one in. Three of the four (Oversoul of Dusk, Deus of Calamity, and Divinity of Pride) get picked regularly - certainly never last. Deity of Scars, as mentioned in my original post, has been underwhelming, and to be honest has been on the chopping block a lot recently - each time narrowly escaping. I like PyreDream's comparison to Spiritmonger here. Spiritmonger is certainly solid, and many still run it. It was in my cube a long time ago, but nobody liked it and how it "forced" you to play b/g, unlike Deity of Scars (or any of the spirit avatars for that matter) that "allow you to play a two-color deck but also "allow" you to play mono-color. That said, I'm still probably going to cut Deity of Scars at some point, though I may also bring Ghastlord of Fugue back in - thus keeping my number of spirit avatars at four.
Recalling the original premise of this discussion:
Quote from Edward Mass »
I want to discuss these guys in terms of giving them a chance. I recognize that there's solid reasons for not running them, but I want to challenge conventional wisdom. (Also, if this helps, I'm only looking at them for a larger Cube whose pool is restricted to Modern-legal cards.)
I'm not saying they're for everyone or every cube; I'm not even saying one of them is. If you and your playgroup don't like mono-color or two-color decks and prefer three, four, and five colors, then they're not for you. If your cube is powered or has lots of artifact mana or plays lots of colorless utility lands, then they're not for you. If you don't have anything that supports devotion or mono-colored matters subthemes, then they're probably not for you. However, if you like playing with fun creatures and cards that you just don't see every day, then these spirit avatars just might be what you and your playgroup might like. I admit, nostalgia may be coming into play a bit here, but I bet they might just surprise some of those denouncing them if they actually gave them a try (in the right circumstances of course). If you've tried them and they don't work for you, great. To each his own. I just like trying (and discussing) outside the box cards and believe others should try things that aren't necessarily on some set skeleton list as well. It's half the fun of cubing or cube designing imo and can really improve the experience.
Just wanted to chime in and say I've had Demigod of Revenge in my cube since 2007 and I don't see myself cutting it anytime soon. It sees a fair amount of play as it slots into mono-red, mono-black, and BR decks and serves as a sometimes better, sometimes worse Thundermaw Hellkite, which is a cube staple.
I'd run Falkenrath Aristocrat over it all day, every day. Unless you've got an exceptionally large multicolored section or some 'quirk in yer cube, Demigod isn't up to the competition in decks that want this effect.
I could understand Demigod making the cut if I could somehow get other copies in the draft. Running a 3-4 of Demigod in a 40 card deck alongside the likes of Faithless Looting could lead to a combo approach which could be very cool.
Demigod's trigger can revive itself, meaning that he blanks most traditional forms of counter-magic. Food for thought.
Only if your opponent is an idiot and counters it before letting the trigger resolve:
If Demigod of Revenge is countered *before* its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. It will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to the battlefield, as well as any others. If you're casting a spell to counter Demigod of Revenge, it's important to clarify you're casting it *after* the triggered ability resolves if you don't want that Demigod of Revenge to be put onto the battlefield.
I really like these guys. With the exception of Overbeing, they're all at or above curve in terms of their abilities. Plus, they fit into an under-utilized cmc (5 drop).
Yes, they're insanely color intensive, but aren't they worth it? If these stick, you'll will (more often or not).
I want to discuss these guys in terms of giving them a chance. I recognize that there's solid reasons for not running them, but I want to challenge conventional wisdom. (Also, if this helps, I'm only looking at them for a larger Cube whose pool is restricted to Modern-legal cards.)
Thoughts?
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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They do all have quite the power behind them but then so do a lot of other 5 drops which have much nicer casting requirements. Why do you feel the 5cc slot is underrepresented? It's not something I've noticed since each colour has 2 - 5 good candidates for that slot which tends to be enough.
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Plus, there are plenty of good five drops. 450 lists can't even run all of the best ones.
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Additionally, I would contend that with devotion and mono-color drafting strategies potentially becoming a thing in cube these guys have become stronger than ever. I know creatures like Primalcrux, Phyrexian Obliterator, Geralf's Messenger, Seismic Assault, Leatherback Baloth, etc... have been given new life with devotion, and these spirit avatars potentially have more flexable mana-costs than any of these. Even cards like Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate, Dungrove Elder, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, etc... that aren't specifically about mana symbols in casting costs but are basic-land-centered cater to mono-colored types of sub-themes, and by extension - these spirit avatars.
Getting to the creatures themselves, I personally like Deus of Calamity, Oversoul of Dusk, and Divinity of Pride best, but I think Deity of Scars, Ghastlord of Fugue, and Nobilis of War could be playable as well. I'm not a fan of Godhead of Awe, but I know some people like, and play, Humility. I doubt Humility is seeing play in anything other than mono-white or w/u, so once again mana-cost is not an issue and Humility on a 4/4 flying stick doesn't seem too bad. Dominus of Fealty as a sort of Zealous Conscripts guy with a bigger body and flying, though lacking the haste or ability to grab a planeswalker, isn't terrible, but it's not great either. Unfortunately, Demigod of Revenge (potentially the most constructed playable card) and Overbeing of Myth both seem bad in cube imo.
Another issue for many might be that they are not the third, fourth, or "x" best card in a certain guild, and that because the guilds are so deep in playables and so shallow in slots designated to them there simply isn't enough room - even if you wanted to try out these guys. To fix this problem, I would suggest categorizing these guys as "mono-colored" - since that is primarily how they play.
No, it's the reason why most people cut them from their cubes after playing with them and realizing that the cost is atrocious.
I would argue that I rarely "need" a 5-drop with a cost of :symbr::symbr::symbr::symbr::symbr:. I'd much rather find a 5-drop with a better cost than exclude good colorless lands or opt not to splash for a bomb off-color card just to run one of these dudes.
...........
It's not just your potential 3rd splash color or colorless lands that interfere with the cost. It also can't accept colorless mana from manafacts, and that's a disappointing drawback for a 5-drop. Especially the ones that would see play in midrange and control decks. No off-color moxen, no fast mana, no Mind Stone mana, etc. Bummer.
Lastly (and most importantly), they're not even that good! There aren't any mono-colored 5-drops with much better casting costs in the cube that these dudes are even better than.
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In the context of a Modern-only large cube, Deity of Scars does a passable impersonation of Spiritmonger.
As for the rest, Deus of Calamity, Demigod of Revenge, Divinity of Pride, Nobilis of War and Oversoul of Dusk are all potential roleplayers since they have more impactful bodies and/or effects when they hit play. The others I would not ever play with, since those awful mana costs are paired with undersized bodies and/or lack of protection.
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The interaction with Devotion is OK, but how many devotion cards do you need to run to even enhance the worth of these guys? Something like a God will be 'turned on' by less colour intensive cards, so you really need something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Master of Waves to even make it a real combo, both of whom are somewhat fringe. Even then, there are more potent and flexible real combos.
These cards are also many times more narrow than something that costs say 1WG; I can splash for that card in my W/R deck, but I can never splash for Oversoul of Dusk. It's the same reason I cut Prime Speaker Zegana, and these are many times more problematic than the Merfolk. The ease of casting a card in a deck of purely its own colours isn't the only criterion to consider.
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I used to run Divinity in my EDH Cube, but these days, Orzhov is like ten to twelve cards deep before I'd even look at him. Orzhov is insanely deep.
Thassa, God of the Sea and Master of Waves are the only two devotion cards that are seeing a lot of Cube play. Okay, Purphoros, God of the Forge as well, but people don't run him for his devotion ability. Gray Merchant of Asphodel sees a little play in Cube, but he's not an overly popular choice. So I'm questioning the basic premise of your post.
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And IMO this is very important to determine if a gold card is cubable or not. If no one will ever think on splashing a color for it, not even as sideboard option, then probably it's not worth the guild/shard slot.
That said, some of them are too underpowered, even there.
I am currently running Overbeing of Myth and Dominus of Fealty, and I'd probably consider Divinity of Pride, Oversoul of Dusk and Godhead of Awe if I had them.
That said, Oversoul and Dominus would be line-ball (Dominus is very good once it's out in MP, but very hard to get out).
I wouldn't even bother considering Deity, Nobilis, Deus or Demigod.
Ghastlord is good, but also lineball - I dropped it for Consuming Aberration when GTC came out.
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Thats not to say you shouldn't try it. Throw them in for a draft and see what people think. If one or two ends up working out well then thats awesome, but I see these pretty late picks in a lot of cubes since you can't splash them or play them on time with colorless lands. I play a lot of 1 on 1 drafts and these cards would be complete throwaways in those formats 90% of the time because they will be too restrictive. I avoid triple costed cards for that reason.
I doubt anyone was advocating playing the whole cycle.
In regard to actually playing with them, I've had four in my cube since its inception, and at various points have had a fifth and even sixth one in. Three of the four (Oversoul of Dusk, Deus of Calamity, and Divinity of Pride) get picked regularly - certainly never last. Deity of Scars, as mentioned in my original post, has been underwhelming, and to be honest has been on the chopping block a lot recently - each time narrowly escaping. I like PyreDream's comparison to Spiritmonger here. Spiritmonger is certainly solid, and many still run it. It was in my cube a long time ago, but nobody liked it and how it "forced" you to play b/g, unlike Deity of Scars (or any of the spirit avatars for that matter) that "allow you to play a two-color deck but also "allow" you to play mono-color. That said, I'm still probably going to cut Deity of Scars at some point, though I may also bring Ghastlord of Fugue back in - thus keeping my number of spirit avatars at four.
Recalling the original premise of this discussion:
I'm not saying they're for everyone or every cube; I'm not even saying one of them is. If you and your playgroup don't like mono-color or two-color decks and prefer three, four, and five colors, then they're not for you. If your cube is powered or has lots of artifact mana or plays lots of colorless utility lands, then they're not for you. If you don't have anything that supports devotion or mono-colored matters subthemes, then they're probably not for you. However, if you like playing with fun creatures and cards that you just don't see every day, then these spirit avatars just might be what you and your playgroup might like. I admit, nostalgia may be coming into play a bit here, but I bet they might just surprise some of those denouncing them if they actually gave them a try (in the right circumstances of course). If you've tried them and they don't work for you, great. To each his own. I just like trying (and discussing) outside the box cards and believe others should try things that aren't necessarily on some set skeleton list as well. It's half the fun of cubing or cube designing imo and can really improve the experience.
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Only two things i can think of is it isn't affected by Baneslayer Angel protection and it has devotion 5 for Purphoros, God of the Forge.
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Only if your opponent is an idiot and counters it before letting the trigger resolve:
If Demigod of Revenge is countered *before* its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. It will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to the battlefield, as well as any others. If you're casting a spell to counter Demigod of Revenge, it's important to clarify you're casting it *after* the triggered ability resolves if you don't want that Demigod of Revenge to be put onto the battlefield.
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You'd be surprised how many players don't recognize this interaction, though. I wouldn't assume someone is an idiot if they miss it the first time.
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