Even though Once More with Feeling is insane in the right deck, the forth white mana means that almost only pure white decks can use it. I wouldn't build a bad deck (and mono-white decks are usually bad in cube) just to have the potential to cast a broken card once in a while.
I don't want to cast this card with just the WWWW available though, so I think that restrictive cost is less of an issue if you're looking to cast it turns 6-8. That being said, you really do need to build around it, but I think pulling off a Once More with Feeling is easier to abuse if you have that extra than something like Upheaval, which can produce the same type of effect.
I like this list quite a bit. Though for black you might want to look at Enter the Dungeon, Evil Presents, or Vile Bile.
I wouldn't run Enter the Dungeon because it unnecessarily adds a huge delay to one match per round, but I could see an argument for it if the extra time wasn't a factor for you.
I'm just not a big fan of VB. Its a solid card for the slot, but its just kinda a feel bad card.
Evil Presents I forgot about, and, if you don't mind having to clarify how it would function, would definitely be my #2 choice in Black.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Can anyone explain how to abuse Fruitcake Elemental to me? It seems like a terrible card, I'm not sure how it is the 2nd best green uncard.
That list derived from someone asking to make a 15 card un-section. In all reality, there aren't 15 consistently cubeable un-cards.
Taking 7 from elemental seems awful, even if you are an aggressive deck. In that spot it's more likely your opponent will have more mana than you to send the Elemental back onto your board before EOT/7dmg
Can anyone explain how to abuse Fruitcake Elemental to me? It seems like a terrible card, I'm not sure how it is the 2nd best green uncard.
That list derived from someone asking to make a 15 card un-section. In all reality, there aren't 15 consistently cubeable un-cards.
Taking 7 from elemental seems awful, even if you are an aggressive deck. In that spot it's more likely your opponent will have more mana than you to send the Elemental back onto your board before EOT/7dmg
Land Aid '04 is less flashy, but I think a much better card than Fruitcake Elemental. Squirrel Farm is on the weaker side, but I would prefer its engine capabilities to Fruitcake Elemental. Green doesn't have a great number 2 choice for cube, but I don't think Fruitcake Elemental is even in the top 5 for green uncards.
Ghazbán Ogress! It's an Isamaru in your first game, and if you can win with your deck she'll stick around for you. Unfortunately she can rot in your sideboard when your draft has gone sour on you, but she can help the rich get richer.
Ghazbán Ogress! It's an Isamaru in your first game, and if you can win with your deck she'll stick around for you. Unfortunately she can rot in your sideboard when your draft has gone sour on you, but she can help the rich get richer.
I really like Ghazban Ogress for the spot, but I didn't mention her because she is useless if you fall behind.
T1: You play him.
T2: He phases out in the untap step.
T3: He phases in the untap step. You pay for the cumulative upkeep, you remove a fade counter, but do you pay echo?
T4: He phases out.
T5: He phases in again. Do you pay for cumulative upkeep 2, or just 1? You remove another fade counter, but how much does he have, 3 counters again or just 2 because you already removed 1 from 2 turns ago? Do you pay echo again?
Might be playable if you don't have to pay the echo cost each time he comes back.
Black is weak. Thoughts on Zzxyxas's Abyss, Aesthetic Consultation, Kill! Destroy! and Rare-B-Gone for the 2nd card?(I know it's slightly cheating to consider the last one as the 2nd black card)
T1: You play him.
T2: He phases out in the untap step.
T3: He phases in the untap step. You pay for the cumulative upkeep, you remove a fade counter, but do you pay echo?
T4: He phases out.
T5: He phases in again. Do you pay for cumulative upkeep 2, or just 1? You remove another fade counter, but how much does he have, 3 counters again or just 2 because you already removed 1 from 2 turns ago? Do you pay echo again?
Might be playable if you don't have to pay the echo cost each time he comes back.
And this is why Old Fogey isn't on my list.
You only pay Echo once.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I copied this from elsewhere, I added in mana investments and what turn it likely is for you.
EDIT: CORRECTED BECAUSE ECHO ISN'T REALLY A THING ON THIS GUY APPARENTLY.
Turn #1 (probably your turn 2) -- You play Old Fogey.
Mana investment: GG
Turn #2 (probably your turn 3)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #3 (probably your turn 4)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {1}." (This assumes your abilities have the ability to speak -- mine do). Echo doesn't matter because of M10 rules changes. And finally fading says "Take off one of my three fading counters."
Mana investment: 1 Total mana investment thus far: 1GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 7.
Turn #4 (probably your turn 5) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #5 (probably your turn 6) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {2}." Echo says, "I'm good." And fading says "Take off another fading counter. I'm down to one."
Mana investment: 2 Total mana investment thus far: 3GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 14.
Turn #6 (probably your turn 7) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #7 (probably your turn 8) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {3}." Echo says, "I'm still good." And fading says "Take off my last fading counter."
Mana investment: 3 Total mana investment thus far: 6GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 21.
Turn #8 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #9 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {4}." Fading then chimes in and says, "You know, I'm going to make you sacrifice Old Fogey. Do you really want to pay {4}?" Then cumulative upkeep says, "Maybe I will. What are you going to do about it?" And then echo says, "Guys, can't we just all get along? Can't we all just get along? Get along? Along?" A fight then ensues which ends with Old Fogey's death.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I never thought Banding was that confusing. I think it's pretty easy to explain like this:
1. You can have one non-banding creature in a band.
2. If one creature in a band blocks or get blocked, the whole band gets blocked or is blocking that creature.
These first two are easy to understand/memorize. They're intuitive. The problem comes in the next set of criteria:
3. The player who controls the band determines where combat damage is assigned from the enemy creatures if the band is on defense.
4. The player who controls the band determines where combat damage is assigned from the enemy creatures IF THE CREATURE BEING BLOCKED IN THE BAND HAS BANDING.
It's actually a really strong combat ability.
They could clean up some of the rules interactions and put it on a current card, honestly. I think players are savvy enough nowadays to figure out how things work.
I would just change the stipulation on #3/#4 so that attacking bands work like defending bands. It's unnecessary that they're different.
I copied this from elsewhere, I added in mana investments and what turn it likely is for you.
Turn #1 (probably your turn 2) -- You play Old Fogey.
Mana investment: GG
Turn #2 (probably your turn 3)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #3 (probably your turn 4)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {1}." (This assumes your abilities have the ability to speak -- mine do). Echo says, "Pay {GG} or sacrifice Old Fogey." And finally fading says "Take off one of my three fading counters."
Mana investment: 1GG Total mana investment thus far: 1GGGG
Turn #4 (probably your turn 5) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #5 (probably your turn 6) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {2}." Echo says, "I'm good." And fading says "Take off another fading counter. I'm down to one."
Mana investment: 2 Total mana investment thus far: 3GGGG
Turn #6 (probably your turn 7) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #7 (probably your turn 8) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {3}." Echo says, "I'm still good." And fading says "Take off my last fading counter."
Mana investment: 3 Total mana investment thus far: 6GGGG
Turn #8 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #9 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {4}." Fading then chimes in and says, "You know, I'm going to make you sacrifice Old Fogey. Do you really want to pay {4}?" Then cumulative upkeep says, "Maybe I will. What are you going to do about it?" And then echo says, "Guys, can't we just all get along? Can't we all just get along? Get along? Along?" A fight then ensues which ends with Old Fogey's death.
If you remove the paying of the Echo cost as what others have said because of the rules change, does it make him worth it? You get 3 swings of a 7/7 for 6GG Spread over 4 turns (7 actually). Even just swinging twice with the 7/7 and paying GG, 1 and 2 (and letting him die) is good enough I think, specially considering the weakness of Green Un- cards.
Also, I'll add the edited part of my first post here:
Black is weak. Thoughts on Zzxyxas's Abyss, Aesthetic Consultation, Kill! Destroy! and Rare-B-Gone for the 2nd card?(I know it's slightly cheating to consider the last one as the 2nd black card)
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Legacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Wait, they changed it so you don't have to pay Echo anymore with it?
Sorry, I missed any discussion about that part.
Basically, echo doesn't trigger on its second turn because it phases out. On turn 3 it sees you had controlled it since the previous upkeep, so echo doesn't try to trigger again. This changed with the M10 rules changes, before this echo would trigger every turn (from what I understood). It changed because phasing is no longer considered a zone change.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Pack Rat's tokens do have a name, because they're copies of Pack Rat, IIRC. But regular tokens cannot be named and can't benefit from being "named" cards.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Ya, but the regular tokens aren't cards. So you can kill a bunch of them with Maelstrom Pulse, but they can't benefit from Muzzio's Preparations, for example. Whereas I believe the Pack Rat copies can. And they also have a CMC of 2 (the Rat copies) instead of traditional token values of 0.
Bit of rules nitpicking, but...
I don't think tokens can benefit from Muzzio's Preparations, except in fringe cases like Pack Rat, Rite of Replication, and Illusion tokens. I believe that is because Muzzio's asks you to name a CARD, you can't choose something that hasn't been printed as a card name. Soldier, goblin, elf, etc can't be chosen. A token copy of a card does copy the name (and CMC) so pack rat and rite tokens can benefit. Illusion tokens are sort of a loophole, since they share a name with a card that has been printed thus can be named. Muzzio's preparations prevents it not the tokens.
Maelstrom Pulse works because the permanent has to share a name, tokens are permanents that usually have the same name as their creature type. So 3/3 beasts and 4/4 beasts share a name and can all die to one Pulse.
I don't want to cast this card with just the WWWW available though, so I think that restrictive cost is less of an issue if you're looking to cast it turns 6-8. That being said, you really do need to build around it, but I think pulling off a Once More with Feeling is easier to abuse if you have that extra than something like Upheaval, which can produce the same type of effect.
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I wouldn't run Enter the Dungeon because it unnecessarily adds a huge delay to one match per round, but I could see an argument for it if the extra time wasn't a factor for you.
I'm just not a big fan of VB. Its a solid card for the slot, but its just kinda a feel bad card.
Evil Presents I forgot about, and, if you don't mind having to clarify how it would function, would definitely be my #2 choice in Black.
I just don't think there is a better green UNcard after Symbol Status.
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That list derived from someone asking to make a 15 card un-section. In all reality, there aren't 15 consistently cubeable un-cards.
Taking 7 from elemental seems awful, even if you are an aggressive deck. In that spot it's more likely your opponent will have more mana than you to send the Elemental back onto your board before EOT/7dmg
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Land Aid '04 is less flashy, but I think a much better card than Fruitcake Elemental. Squirrel Farm is on the weaker side, but I would prefer its engine capabilities to Fruitcake Elemental. Green doesn't have a great number 2 choice for cube, but I don't think Fruitcake Elemental is even in the top 5 for green uncards.
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I really like Ghazban Ogress for the spot, but I didn't mention her because she is useless if you fall behind.
T1: You play him.
T2: He phases out in the untap step.
T3: He phases in the untap step. You pay for the cumulative upkeep, you remove a fade counter, but do you pay echo?
T4: He phases out.
T5: He phases in again. Do you pay for cumulative upkeep 2, or just 1? You remove another fade counter, but how much does he have, 3 counters again or just 2 because you already removed 1 from 2 turns ago? Do you pay echo again?
Might be playable if you don't have to pay the echo cost each time he comes back.
Black is weak. Thoughts on Zzxyxas's Abyss, Aesthetic Consultation, Kill! Destroy! and Rare-B-Gone for the 2nd card?(I know it's slightly cheating to consider the last one as the 2nd black card)
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
And this is why Old Fogey isn't on my list.
You only pay Echo once.
EDIT - I'm wrong. You never pay the echo because of rules changes since it was printed. Weird.
EDIT: CORRECTED BECAUSE ECHO ISN'T REALLY A THING ON THIS GUY APPARENTLY.
Turn #1 (probably your turn 2) -- You play Old Fogey.
Mana investment: GG
Turn #2 (probably your turn 3)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #3 (probably your turn 4)-- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {1}." (This assumes your abilities have the ability to speak -- mine do). Echo doesn't matter because of M10 rules changes. And finally fading says "Take off one of my three fading counters."
Mana investment: 1 Total mana investment thus far: 1GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 7.
Turn #4 (probably your turn 5) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #5 (probably your turn 6) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {2}." Echo says, "I'm good." And fading says "Take off another fading counter. I'm down to one."
Mana investment: 2 Total mana investment thus far: 3GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 14.
Turn #6 (probably your turn 7) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #7 (probably your turn 8) -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {3}." Echo says, "I'm still good." And fading says "Take off my last fading counter."
Mana investment: 3 Total mana investment thus far: 6GG
Damage possible with Old Fogey: 21.
Turn #8 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
Turn #9 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {4}." Fading then chimes in and says, "You know, I'm going to make you sacrifice Old Fogey. Do you really want to pay {4}?" Then cumulative upkeep says, "Maybe I will. What are you going to do about it?" And then echo says, "Guys, can't we just all get along? Can't we all just get along? Get along? Along?" A fight then ensues which ends with Old Fogey's death.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
1. You can have one non-banding creature in a band.
2. If one creature in a band blocks or get blocked, the whole band gets blocked or is blocking that creature.
These first two are easy to understand/memorize. They're intuitive. The problem comes in the next set of criteria:
3. The player who controls the band determines where combat damage is assigned from the enemy creatures if the band is on defense.
4. The player who controls the band determines where combat damage is assigned from the enemy creatures IF THE CREATURE BEING BLOCKED IN THE BAND HAS BANDING.
It's actually a really strong combat ability.
They could clean up some of the rules interactions and put it on a current card, honestly. I think players are savvy enough nowadays to figure out how things work.
I would just change the stipulation on #3/#4 so that attacking bands work like defending bands. It's unnecessary that they're different.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
If you remove the paying of the Echo cost as what others have said because of the rules change, does it make him worth it? You get 3 swings of a 7/7 for 6GG Spread over 4 turns (7 actually). Even just swinging twice with the 7/7 and paying GG, 1 and 2 (and letting him die) is good enough I think, specially considering the weakness of Green Un- cards.
Also, I'll add the edited part of my first post here:
Black is weak. Thoughts on Zzxyxas's Abyss, Aesthetic Consultation, Kill! Destroy! and Rare-B-Gone for the 2nd card?(I know it's slightly cheating to consider the last one as the 2nd black card)
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Sorry, I missed any discussion about that part.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Basically, echo doesn't trigger on its second turn because it phases out. On turn 3 it sees you had controlled it since the previous upkeep, so echo doesn't try to trigger again. This changed with the M10 rules changes, before this echo would trigger every turn (from what I understood). It changed because phasing is no longer considered a zone change.
If you blink this guy, everything resets as though you just played him, right?
This guy seems decent.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Yeah, blinking him resets him.
Zzzysax's Abyss could combo quite well with tokens. (IF I'm correct)
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I don't think tokens can benefit from Muzzio's Preparations, except in fringe cases like Pack Rat, Rite of Replication, and Illusion tokens. I believe that is because Muzzio's asks you to name a CARD, you can't choose something that hasn't been printed as a card name. Soldier, goblin, elf, etc can't be chosen. A token copy of a card does copy the name (and CMC) so pack rat and rite tokens can benefit. Illusion tokens are sort of a loophole, since they share a name with a card that has been printed thus can be named. Muzzio's preparations prevents it not the tokens.
Maelstrom Pulse works because the permanent has to share a name, tokens are permanents that usually have the same name as their creature type. So 3/3 beasts and 4/4 beasts share a name and can all die to one Pulse.
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