I've seen Elspeth go ultimate and that player still lost to flyers.
That's extremely rare especially since white has its own fliers, and still gives me no reason to weigh importance of Elspeth's ultimate when judging both Wildfire and BoX. And if you had either Wildfire or BoX in that situation, the 4 damage to each creature of both the spells should've stopped the fliers if 4 dmg could kill them.
Ultimately, my point is that we shouldn't be mentioning Elspeth ultimate in the same breath as Charm and Sigarda when weighing importance because it's a once-in-a-lifetime encounter with in-game scenarios, and even rarer that the negative effect gets mitigated by the ultimate AND actually helps you win the game for/against you if you have/don't have the ultimate. Seems like wayyy too many ifs, buts, and <<<<<1% chances of a moment to occur for it to sway our decision making.
I was just saying it's possible to lose after ultimating Elspeth since I've seen it in action.
I don't understand what your argument is. If you can think of cards that matter when it comes to Burning of Xinye/Wildfire, it's probably worth it that they don't get lumped together as the same card, unlike Armageddon.
Even if we couldn't come up with cards where it would matter, I'd still be of the opinion they should be different for consistency's sake.
I was just saying it's possible to lose after ultimating Elspeth since I've seen it in action.
I don't understand what your argument is. If you can think of cards that matter when it comes to Burning of Xinye/Wildfire, it's probably worth it that they don't get lumped together as the same card, unlike Armageddon.
Even if we couldn't come up with cards where it would matter, I'd still be of the opinion they should be different for consistency's sake.
I don't think Elspeth ultimate should weigh on the decision of whether one is better than the other because so much is irrelevant once the ultimate goes off, when it rarely does. willdice mentioned choosing one over the other if you saw/have Elspeth, and I don't see how an extremely rare situation would cause me to hesitate on choosing one or the other, whereas Boros Charm and Sigarda do a fine job with that as their presence alone actually alter the cards. There are just wayyyy too many what-if clauses for the Elspeth ultimate to be affected by Wildfire/BoX that it's pretty much not worth considering Elspeth as a difference maker, whereas Boros Charm and Sigarda are instantaneous factors for Wildfire/BoX.
If we couldn't come up with cards where it mattered, they would actually be the same in practice in non-multiplayer cubes, as how Armageddon/Ravages of War are. If there was nothing that stopped permanents from being sacc'd or made things indestructible, and Ravages said "each player sacrifices all lands" instead of what it actually says, do we still classify them as two different cards? Because without the difference makers, those two effects are exactly the same with the end result and the scooping of the lands that happens after the spell resolves.
The only thing I've said on this debate is we should classify them as different cards because of the same reasons everyone else has pitched.
What are you actually arguing?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as different cards because of some subset of cards, but not others?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as the same card?
I've read your posts a few times now, and I honestly cannot understand why you're trying to discount the Elspeth scenario but say Boros Charm and Sigarda are valid. Is there a greater point to all of this?
The only thing I've said on this debate is we should classify them as different cards because of the same reasons everyone else has pitched.
What are you actually arguing?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as different cards because of some subset of cards, but not others?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as the same card?
I've read your posts a few times now, and I honestly cannot understand why you're trying to discount the Elspeth scenario but say Boros Charm and Sigarda are valid. Is there a greater point to all of this?
Originally I was arguing that Burning/BoX were different, but wtwlf and cuttups brought up convincing points for otherwise. willdice said in drafting an elspeth should be considered when taking one over the other, but I don't think elspeth ultimate should make any difference when comparing the two because it's so minimally impactful. I think the debate has progressed pretty clearly and my stances have adjusted to reply and agree/disagree with counterpoints.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I did not vote in this Year's Power Rankings (did not have the time nor patience to do it, to be quite honest ), but I want to personally thank mr. Silent Edge for putting in the effort to do this project again as I'm sure it will be helpful for many people in the community. Kudos!
Yeah, I tried to vote for every group but was away on business when black voting was happening and couldn't make the time.
Thanks Silent Edge!
EDIT: Sol Ring finally #1!
If we do this again next year, I can see fast mana being even higher than it was this year. As better cards get printed to ramp into and speed up the format, the quicker cubes will be and the worse Library will get.
Really interesting data. Very surprised to see Balance with four no-votes.
I don't know, I don't think I'll ever dethrone Library. There are a lot of fast mana cards, but there's only one card that lets me play the entire game at 2 cards per turn. Unless they print a whole bunch of additional Sol Ring caliber ramp spells, I don't see the cube's speed increasing to the point where Library is no longer the best card. At least, not for my cube anyways.
I missed the overall and land rankings, but cheers for putting the time in for that S_E! If we revisit in a year's time, it may be wise to wait a couple of weeks for the Summer release which always throws some bombs our way.
The Library/Sol Ring discussion is an interesting one. I mean, you start with two cards that work in any deck. One card that puts you 2 turns ahead of your opponent (when played on Turn 1), the other allows you to draw 2 cards per turn (when played on Turn 1). I will say that Sol Ring doesn't lose "steam" when played in the late game as much as Library does -- given the likely situation that you're at less than 7 cards, but Library still does provide colorless mana as well. Library in Constructed formats way back in 1994 was a monster. In the Cube, it's an unadulterated nightmare based simply on the sheer power of the cards that it can draw in this format. I don't think either one is the "wrong" pick at any time and Library is slightly worse in Aggro decks that empty their hand quickly. I don't think the Cube format (in a powered arena) can get much faster. Moxes, Lotus, Sol Ring, etc provide enough speed.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
That's extremely rare especially since white has its own fliers, and still gives me no reason to weigh importance of Elspeth's ultimate when judging both Wildfire and BoX. And if you had either Wildfire or BoX in that situation, the 4 damage to each creature of both the spells should've stopped the fliers if 4 dmg could kill them.
Ultimately, my point is that we shouldn't be mentioning Elspeth ultimate in the same breath as Charm and Sigarda when weighing importance because it's a once-in-a-lifetime encounter with in-game scenarios, and even rarer that the negative effect gets mitigated by the ultimate AND actually helps you win the game for/against you if you have/don't have the ultimate. Seems like wayyy too many ifs, buts, and <<<<<1% chances of a moment to occur for it to sway our decision making.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I don't understand what your argument is. If you can think of cards that matter when it comes to Burning of Xinye/Wildfire, it's probably worth it that they don't get lumped together as the same card, unlike Armageddon.
Even if we couldn't come up with cards where it would matter, I'd still be of the opinion they should be different for consistency's sake.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I don't think Elspeth ultimate should weigh on the decision of whether one is better than the other because so much is irrelevant once the ultimate goes off, when it rarely does. willdice mentioned choosing one over the other if you saw/have Elspeth, and I don't see how an extremely rare situation would cause me to hesitate on choosing one or the other, whereas Boros Charm and Sigarda do a fine job with that as their presence alone actually alter the cards. There are just wayyyy too many what-if clauses for the Elspeth ultimate to be affected by Wildfire/BoX that it's pretty much not worth considering Elspeth as a difference maker, whereas Boros Charm and Sigarda are instantaneous factors for Wildfire/BoX.
If we couldn't come up with cards where it mattered, they would actually be the same in practice in non-multiplayer cubes, as how Armageddon/Ravages of War are. If there was nothing that stopped permanents from being sacc'd or made things indestructible, and Ravages said "each player sacrifices all lands" instead of what it actually says, do we still classify them as two different cards? Because without the difference makers, those two effects are exactly the same with the end result and the scooping of the lands that happens after the spell resolves.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
What are you actually arguing?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as different cards because of some subset of cards, but not others?
Are you arguing that we should classify Burning of Xinye/Wildfire as the same card?
I've read your posts a few times now, and I honestly cannot understand why you're trying to discount the Elspeth scenario but say Boros Charm and Sigarda are valid. Is there a greater point to all of this?
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Originally I was arguing that Burning/BoX were different, but wtwlf and cuttups brought up convincing points for otherwise. willdice said in drafting an elspeth should be considered when taking one over the other, but I don't think elspeth ultimate should make any difference when comparing the two because it's so minimally impactful. I think the debate has progressed pretty clearly and my stances have adjusted to reply and agree/disagree with counterpoints.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
All Results, Participants and TURFs are posted in the 2nd post in this thread.
Thank you to everyone that voted for all of the groups and special thanks goes out to:
wtwlf123, cuttups, willdice and TheRift88
These 4 voted on EVERY group. Much appreciation to the 4 of you!!
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Overall, great work, Silent Edge! It is good to have recent Power Ranking results again.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
And also, you are welcome america and the rest of the world for my continued vigilance in making lists.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
Thanks Silent Edge!
EDIT: Sol Ring finally #1!
If we do this again next year, I can see fast mana being even higher than it was this year. As better cards get printed to ramp into and speed up the format, the quicker cubes will be and the worse Library will get.
Really interesting data. Very surprised to see Balance with four no-votes.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
The Library/Sol Ring discussion is an interesting one. I mean, you start with two cards that work in any deck. One card that puts you 2 turns ahead of your opponent (when played on Turn 1), the other allows you to draw 2 cards per turn (when played on Turn 1). I will say that Sol Ring doesn't lose "steam" when played in the late game as much as Library does -- given the likely situation that you're at less than 7 cards, but Library still does provide colorless mana as well. Library in Constructed formats way back in 1994 was a monster. In the Cube, it's an unadulterated nightmare based simply on the sheer power of the cards that it can draw in this format. I don't think either one is the "wrong" pick at any time and Library is slightly worse in Aggro decks that empty their hand quickly. I don't think the Cube format (in a powered arena) can get much faster. Moxes, Lotus, Sol Ring, etc provide enough speed.
Having said all that, I'll still take LoA at P1P1
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3