What do you guys think of targeted in discard in each theater of cube (powered, unpowered, pauper, etc.)
Tidehollow Sculler and Mesmeric seem very good in powered cubes, whereas Ostracize is probably the nuts in pauper and duress seems mediocre in a powered cube. Brain Maggot is just really bad because you can put the trigger on the stack and kill him to get your thing back. Distress is just a miserable Hymn to Tourach.
Missing a few options here, notably Despise, which is a strictly-better Ostracize (though admittedly no different in Pauper/Peasant). Also [c]Inquisition of Kozilek/c]
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Duress is not mediocre in powered cubes. It gets ridden of threats black has trouble dealing with otherwise.
For Powered and 'regular' cubes (the ones that work like powered without P9), I'd say the best direct discard effects are:
1. Mind Twist
2. Hymn to Tourach
3. Thoughtseize
4. Inquisition of Kozilek
5. Duress
6. Gerrard's Verdict
7. Despise
8. Liliana's Specter
Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are the best by a long distance, and then Despise is also very playable. I would never consider fewer than the first three I listed though.
Blackmail - Usually not as good on the first turn as Thoughtseize or Duress, but at least it will always hit something. It can also work as a reanimation enabler in a pinch. Hollow Specter - It may be mana intensive, but there aren't that many repeatable targeted discard effects.
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Gerrard's Verdict is going in a different direction than what I want to do with my BW section, because it's much more control oriented when I'm going for tempo-y aggro. It's still really powerful, no denying that.
Also, I know nobody talked about this, but simplifying the text on Brain Maggot makes it so bad that you can put the trigger on the stack and kill it to get your card back. Sometimes, this thing matters. (Sorry, just me *****ing)
Thirdly, as far as creatures with attached discard, I think Hypnotic Specter is still the best of the bunch. Is Liliana's Specter still good enough to deserve the slot? Maybe in larger cubes or unpowered ones?
I don't think that Gerrard's Verdict is more control oriented. It's really useful in everything, but I'd rather have it in aggro where your opponent doesn't ever have any good decisions as to what to pitch to it. But I agree that it's part of a different conversation, because it's not really "targeted" discard.
But Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek are the top 3, with Despise being behind those. Tidehollow Sculler is probably the next most playable card in this vein. Blackmail can be really powerful in the middle of the game, but isn't ideal for surgical discard because they can protect their most valuable asset in the early game when the others really shine. Appetite for Brains isn't a terrible option for bigger, slower cubes with a ton of haymaker kinds of spells like a Miltiplayer or EDH cube (the exile clause also happens to be more relevant in those environments as well).
People usually keep hands based on how good the early game potential is (i.e. have they got stuff to do for the first 1-4 turns). This makes Inquisition of Kozilek quite excellent in this regard, as usually if I play a targeted discard spell turn 1 I want to remove one of their early plays. It frequently feels better than Duress quite a bit of the time. I think Duress probably wins out though, as it is better when drawn mid-late game, and also hits a whole slew of planeswalkers.
I'm not terribly fond of disruption-happy cubes. Thoughtseize, Inquisition, and Mesmeric Fiend/Brain Maggot are plenty for me. Duress strikes me as a sideboard card, which is not where you want to be when building cubes. I can't count how many Duress whiffs I've seen.
Lack of good disruption is (in my opinion) the number one problem with the cube today. I would say it's the primary thing keeping black down in power-level. (I could be wrong, though.)
Despise & Cabal Therapy are recent additions but they've been great. Nothing like "calling a shot" with Cabal Therapy and hitting. I totally played a deck whose scariest card was Pack Rat. T-1 I played Therapy and named Pack Rat in the dark to make him discard it. Without a discard spell I would have surely lost the game but instead I crushed my opponent. Despise has been solid & a worthy inclusion at 540. Maybe you can run it at 450 if you want to push this theme.
Despise & Cabal Therapy are recent additions but they've been great. Nothing like "calling a shot" with Cabal Therapy and hitting. I totally played a deck whose scariest card was Pack Rat. T-1 I played Therapy and named Pack Rat in the dark to make him discard it. Without a discard spell I would have surely lost the game but instead I crushed my opponent. Despise has been solid & a worthy inclusion at 540. Maybe you can run it at 450 if you want to push this theme.
Glad someone finally mentioned Cabal Therapy! Its like the second best one and probably first in a shell that takes advantage of it.
Duress strikes me as a sideboard card, which is not where you want to be when building cubes. I can't count how many Duress whiffs I've seen.
Same here. I'm a little surprised at how popular it continues to be vs other options.
Lack of good disruption is (in my opinion) the number one problem with the cube today. I would say it's the primary thing keeping black down in power-level. (I could be wrong, though.)
Well, I would agree that by not running the full suite of great targeted discard, you would be reducing black's power significantly. It's a main selling point to the colour in so many drafting situations, especially seeing as no other colour can do it.
Quote from CorporateNoun »
I can't count how many Duress whiffs I've seen.
I've had Duress whiff as a topdeck, but that's no huge criterion for its evaluation. It's probably the best way for aggro to deal with Wraths or Moats or Planeswalkers, as they don't even get one activation out of the PW and you're not forced to redirect your attacks. My aggro decks are always more comfortable with a discard package around to weed out the problem cards.
Quote from kingneb »
Despise & Cabal Therapy are recent additions but they've been great. Nothing like "calling a shot" with Cabal Therapy and hitting. I totally played a deck whose scariest card was Pack Rat. T-1 I played Therapy and named Pack Rat in the dark to make him discard it. Without a discard spell I would have surely lost the game but instead I crushed my opponent. Despise has been solid & a worthy inclusion at 540. Maybe you can run it at 450 if you want to push this theme.
I've been toying with the idea of Cabal Therapy for ages. Not got around to running it, but it's definitely on my radar. Randomly guessing a scary card is not my idea of making it good, but I think in tandem with other discard and with the tutor effects flying around, it could hit a decent amount of times.
Duress is a sideboard card that you side in against decks with powerful noncreature spells... so basically every cube deck ever.
Word. I don't think I've ever seen a cube deck I'd board it out against. I mean, maybe against a deck with 16+ creatures but even those probably have a Sword, Armageddon, a 'walker, or Plow Under. Something scary.
I like Cabal Therapy. It has long existed since I started cube. It's flashback is relevant if you happen to play RB Threaten decks, and is good in BW tokens, or anything with a death theme.
I played Duress multiple times on turn one today and it never whiffed. Overall, it rarely whiffs. Mostly when it is topdecked later and the opponent is just holding a land or two as a bluff. Definitely a maindeck card.
if I were to step outside of the top 3 targeted discard cards (Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress), what would be next up? I recently picked up a copy of Blackmail with the intent of doing some testing - it seems like a deceptively powerful card, given it can hit lands, and is quite strong as a top deck. i'm specifically trying to beef up aggro's gameplan against midrange and combo - is there a better alternative I'm missing?
I think I may give Cabal Therapy a try as well - being able to hit your opponent right after a SFM/tutor seems really strong, and while its not as relevant as an early-game discard (unless you've scouted with a T1 Duress, T2 Therapy), it can be a nice answer for non-blue decks to deal with combo. maybe its just me, but sometimes I feel that Blue is a bit too powerful in powered/vintage cube, so I'm just trying to give other colors some better tools to answer them!
They are no Thoughtseize, but what they provide is some early interaction.
I like to think of them this way - If you can take a creature, you're doing well. If there are no creatures, you're also doing well - you know their hand won't be putting too much early pressure on your slow control deck/ no blockers for your aggro deck.
I find the aggro decks are shifting to 4-5 drops with cards like:
and can sacrifice some card disadvantage to ensure they have a stronger board presence.
Similarly, if I'm playing Seasons Past control deck where it has insane card advantage in the late game and I Despise/Divest and see no targets - I'm actually super happy. This means they don't have the early pressure before my Seasons Past returns 4-5 cards per activation. (similarly, if I got to nab a creature/ planeswalkers/ artifact, I'm even happier)
I found the two mana discard spells to be quite good - they are playable in pretty much any archetype and at worst they are a good SB option against combo matchups. I've been considering adding Lay bare the Heart into my cube mostly as a SB option for players against decks like Reanimator/ Storm and possibility control.
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Kitesail Freebooter and Collective Brutality are very good. I like Mesmeric Fiend more than second tier spell discard like Blackmail. Tidehollow Sculler is great and also helps with the dwindling Zombie count for Gravecrawler (please Wizards make the next recursive black 1-drop a Zombie...).
What do you guys think of targeted in discard in each theater of cube (powered, unpowered, pauper, etc.)
Tidehollow Sculler and Mesmeric seem very good in powered cubes, whereas Ostracize is probably the nuts in pauper and duress seems mediocre in a powered cube. Brain Maggot is just really bad because you can put the trigger on the stack and kill him to get your thing back. Distress is just a miserable Hymn to Tourach.
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For Powered and 'regular' cubes (the ones that work like powered without P9), I'd say the best direct discard effects are:
1. Mind Twist
2. Hymn to Tourach
3. Thoughtseize
4. Inquisition of Kozilek
5. Duress
6. Gerrard's Verdict
7. Despise
8. Liliana's Specter
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Blackmail - Usually not as good on the first turn as Thoughtseize or Duress, but at least it will always hit something. It can also work as a reanimation enabler in a pinch.
Hollow Specter - It may be mana intensive, but there aren't that many repeatable targeted discard effects.
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Also, I know nobody talked about this, but simplifying the text on Brain Maggot makes it so bad that you can put the trigger on the stack and kill it to get your card back. Sometimes, this thing matters. (Sorry, just me *****ing)
Thirdly, as far as creatures with attached discard, I think Hypnotic Specter is still the best of the bunch. Is Liliana's Specter still good enough to deserve the slot? Maybe in larger cubes or unpowered ones?
But Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek are the top 3, with Despise being behind those. Tidehollow Sculler is probably the next most playable card in this vein. Blackmail can be really powerful in the middle of the game, but isn't ideal for surgical discard because they can protect their most valuable asset in the early game when the others really shine. Appetite for Brains isn't a terrible option for bigger, slower cubes with a ton of haymaker kinds of spells like a Miltiplayer or EDH cube (the exile clause also happens to be more relevant in those environments as well).
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This, and Wraths and Armageddons and Wildfires. All of which are pretty crucial to hit.
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Lack of good disruption is (in my opinion) the number one problem with the cube today. I would say it's the primary thing keeping black down in power-level. (I could be wrong, though.)
Despise & Cabal Therapy are recent additions but they've been great. Nothing like "calling a shot" with Cabal Therapy and hitting. I totally played a deck whose scariest card was Pack Rat. T-1 I played Therapy and named Pack Rat in the dark to make him discard it. Without a discard spell I would have surely lost the game but instead I crushed my opponent. Despise has been solid & a worthy inclusion at 540. Maybe you can run it at 450 if you want to push this theme.
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Glad someone finally mentioned Cabal Therapy! Its like the second best one and probably first in a shell that takes advantage of it.
Same here. I'm a little surprised at how popular it continues to be vs other options.
Well, I would agree that by not running the full suite of great targeted discard, you would be reducing black's power significantly. It's a main selling point to the colour in so many drafting situations, especially seeing as no other colour can do it.
I've had Duress whiff as a topdeck, but that's no huge criterion for its evaluation. It's probably the best way for aggro to deal with Wraths or Moats or Planeswalkers, as they don't even get one activation out of the PW and you're not forced to redirect your attacks. My aggro decks are always more comfortable with a discard package around to weed out the problem cards.
I've been toying with the idea of Cabal Therapy for ages. Not got around to running it, but it's definitely on my radar. Randomly guessing a scary card is not my idea of making it good, but I think in tandem with other discard and with the tutor effects flying around, it could hit a decent amount of times.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Word. I don't think I've ever seen a cube deck I'd board it out against. I mean, maybe against a deck with 16+ creatures but even those probably have a Sword, Armageddon, a 'walker, or Plow Under. Something scary.
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There's also Castigate at 2 mana, but Tidehollow Sculler is probably more desireable.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
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I think I may give Cabal Therapy a try as well - being able to hit your opponent right after a SFM/tutor seems really strong, and while its not as relevant as an early-game discard (unless you've scouted with a T1 Duress, T2 Therapy), it can be a nice answer for non-blue decks to deal with combo. maybe its just me, but sometimes I feel that Blue is a bit too powerful in powered/vintage cube, so I'm just trying to give other colors some better tools to answer them!
edit: Collective Brutality is also fantastic.
[180 classic cube]
Despise
Divest
Agonizing Remorse
Lost Hours
Transgress the Mind
Lay Bare the Heart - I don't play this myself.
They are no Thoughtseize, but what they provide is some early interaction.
I like to think of them this way - If you can take a creature, you're doing well. If there are no creatures, you're also doing well - you know their hand won't be putting too much early pressure on your slow control deck/ no blockers for your aggro deck.
I find the aggro decks are shifting to 4-5 drops with cards like:
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Hazoret the Fervent
Bedlam Reveler
and can sacrifice some card disadvantage to ensure they have a stronger board presence.
Similarly, if I'm playing Seasons Past control deck where it has insane card advantage in the late game and I Despise/Divest and see no targets - I'm actually super happy. This means they don't have the early pressure before my Seasons Past returns 4-5 cards per activation. (similarly, if I got to nab a creature/ planeswalkers/ artifact, I'm even happier)
I found the two mana discard spells to be quite good - they are playable in pretty much any archetype and at worst they are a good SB option against combo matchups. I've been considering adding Lay bare the Heart into my cube mostly as a SB option for players against decks like Reanimator/ Storm and possibility control.
I still have Tidehollow Sculler for flicker shenanigans.
I have cut my black aggro 1 drops for this this massive increase in black based discard + Black planswalker removal.
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2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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