But I have a ton of experience with Wheel of Fortune. I know what makes the effect good. Which is the cheap splashable cost and the ability to cast it in the perfect timing window. Reforge the Soul loses both. I have also experienced how Wheel plays in Storm, and again, without having complete control over the timing of the effect, it's crippled. So my evaluation was based on experience. I don't need to cube Grizzly Bears to know it's worse than Scavenging Ooze.
I'll get you some dip for that chip on your shoulder and we can be friends again.
..........
What makes these green fatties good are the board presence and the stabilization. Hornet Queen has shown itself to be much better at doing both. YMMV, of course. But my experiences have shown Queen to be much better. And that's all I can share, are my experiences and my opinions.
What timing! I am very close to taking out Hornet Queen for Pelakka Wurm. I've found that every time, the queen just causes games to go 5+ turns after because the bugs aren't big enough to kill the opponent fast enough and the opponent can't even attack into it. It's becoming a huge groan-producer in my group and I think the Wurm is still a good stabilizer, but won't cause a game to go on forever after it's cast because it has punching power.
Edit: Whoa accidentally stumbled into a meta-fight in here
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
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Hornet Queen gets better if you are supporting tokens heavily. It plays nicely in GW token ramp builds, particularly with a Mirari's Wake in play.
Pelakka Wurm is good. I rate it joint third in the green fatties, behind Primus and Hornet Queen, but equal to Terastodon. Because of this I swap Wurm/'Don in and out of my cube from time to time.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Im gonna get you a saddle for the horse you rode in on. Good grief. By all means share your opinion but dont beat it in and treat it as the truth even if it is your truth.
Ya, this whole thread got turned sideways really quick.
Hornet Queen gets better if you are supporting tokens heavily. It plays nicely in GW token ramp builds, particularly with a Mirari's Wake in play.
Pelakka Wurm is good. I rate it joint third in the green fatties, behind Primus and Hornet Queen, but equal to Terastodon. Because of this I swap Wurm/'Don in and out of my cube from time to time.
I went back and forth between those two for quite a while myself. Wound up keeping the Terastodon because it pulled me out of some really narrow spots where spot removal against the Wurm would've been nasty, and it deals with problematic permanents that held Wurm at bay.
Hornet Queen gets better if you are supporting tokens heavily. It plays nicely in GW token ramp builds, particularly with a Mirari's Wake in play.
Pelakka Wurm is good. I rate it joint third in the green fatties, behind Primus and Hornet Queen, but equal to Terastodon. Because of this I swap Wurm/'Don in and out of my cube from time to time.
I feel the same way about Wurm and Don. Honestly, the trample and chump blocking came up enough times that I probably prefer the Wurm.
Another voice for Queen and Primus as Tier 1, Terastodon and Pelakka as Tier 2, and Avenger etc Tier 3. Like cuttups I slightly prefer Pelakka over Terastodon, but I currently do not run either.
I would agree that Queen is better then Pelakka in most all cases, which is better then Avenger. That said, Avenger is super fun for example, and frankly if you rather play him over the 'don or Pelakka, or even Hornet Queen, I can see why you would.
I've recently started thinking about adding another Green fatty, I'm already carrying Primus, Hornet Queen and Terastadon -- and was actually thinking about the Behemoth. And now Pelekka Wurm enters the discussion. Its sounding like its a preference thing, and if that's the case...I guess testing is the answer.
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I've recently started thinking about adding another Green fatty, I'm already carrying Primus, Hornet Queen and Terastadon -- and was actually thinking about the Behemoth. And now Pelekka Wurm enters the discussion. Its sounding like its a preference thing, and if that's the case...I guess testing is the answer.
The Behemoth is a ton of fun, particularly with crazy token producers like Symbol Status. We played the Behemoth for quite a while and had some pretty huge blow outs with that combo (swinging for 140+ trample damage). That said, as wtwlf pointed out it was a creature that we were always sad to see reanimated or cheated in. It is a late-game or bust creature, but with a very strong token theme that can be just fine. Pelakka is a much better rounded card, but less cool. You are spot on though, test them both and see what you think cause they care close overall I'd say.
I have not played with Hornet Queen. I will almost certainly test it at some point. The trample on Pelakka just seemed super relevant even though Queen is likely better.
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You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Calm down guys im not that serious. I just wanted to call out that chip on your shoulder cheap shot which is where the ugliness began. Glad to see some others weigh in on this card.
It wasn't a cheap shot, lol. Just a playful comment when the direction of the thread changed from talking about the focus of the [SCD] and switched to talking about a past debate where I disagreed with Colby. It seemed clear to me that he was more upset about me not liking Reforge than it was about me thinking Queen was better than Wurm.
Man, I'm surprised. I thought that was pretty tame. Wasn't intended to be insulting. I was shocked that an argument was brought across threads attacking how I evaluate cards based off experience. When it was experience that led me to my conclusions in both threads. I felt like I was unnecessarily put on the defensive for saying ...what? That I think Queen is better than Wurm and I think Reforge is missing the components that make Wheel good? I felt that it was an unnecessary derail, and that a lighthearted jab regarding being bitter about the Reforge thread would lighten the tense mood in this thread. Apparently not.
Goodness.
Also, that "tone" and the chip on the shoulder bit was brought up AFTER I was criticized for evaluating Reforge and not liking Wurm as much as Queen. Previous to that, all I had said was that I thought Queen was better.
It's really neat that we'll have the appropriate tokens and a foil for this card now with M15. I may reintroduce it to fill my seven CMC gap, especially as I'm adding Reveillark back in for another go, as that card works with Hornet Queen. It's rather Magical Christmas Land but hell, why not. Grenzo does stuff with it as well, and I'd sure love to see that happen. It's one of the best creatures to stabilize with, ever.
You got defensive when Colby said about your experiences with Pelakka:
Does that mean that I shouldn't share my opinion on which card I think is better? I mean, I guess we could just close down the cube forum and pack it in because there's nothing to discuss.
That kind of thing really isn't conducive to discussion.
Man, I'm surprised. I thought that was pretty tame. Wasn't intended to be insulting. I was shocked that an argument was brought across threads attacking how I evaluate cards based off experience. When it was experience that led me to my conclusions in both threads. I felt like I was unnecessarily put on the defensive for saying ...what? That I think Queen is better than Wurm and I think Reforge is missing the components that make Wheel good? I felt that it was an unnecessary derail, and that a lighthearted jab regarding being bitter about the Reforge thread would lighten the tense mood in this thread. Apparently not. Goodness.
Well, I certainly can't speak to how anyone else took your posts, but for me it seems that you're trying to play both sides of the coin.
On the one hand, you say that you think Queen is so much better than Wurm insomuch as to stand behind wording that could apply to Ancestral vs. Brainstorm because of your experience.
You asked me if I had actually cubed Pelakka Wurm, seemingly calling question to my opinions because I didn't have experience to back it up.
This however runs completely contrary to your posts on the other thread, where you dismissed a card completely because you knew how a similar card played. Not the actual card in question, just a similar card. Any experience I had with a card was completely dismissed, with a capital B for Butt, even though I had experience to back up my claims as well.
You're trying to say that your experiences and opinions are valuable, but when you trample over other people's opinions and experiences it makes you appear like a hypocrite and a bully.
I think there was a lot of stuff in here that isn't conducive to discussion. Like the jab about Morphling and raking up the Reforge discussion. Nothing was intended to be insulting, and nothing was harmful. I was trying to lighten the mood when things turned south, and they just got worse. Oh well. Hopefully next time things will work out better.
Geez, is there any way to get the thread back on track? It's long over. Lets talk about green fatties instead!
I'm excited for Hornet Queen tokens I've been using CE Scryb Sprites in the interim and may stick with them because they look sweet. Still hoping for a good 6-drop (as good as Prime Time.)
I would like more man-lands to help Prime Time produce (reliably!) extra threats. And because, well, man-lands are just so good. If Soul of Shandalar were green I'd be so happy with that guy, no kidding. Not sure if red needs the extra sixer
That definitely wasn't a jab at Morphling, I can see how your playgroup would find him worthy of cube inclusion and was saying Pelakka Wurm can similarly be found worthy of cube inclusion in other playgroups.
I've never even said how highly I value Pelakka Wurm, largely because I have absolutely no cube experience with it. My only argument was that the card can likely be valued in other playgroups/cube sizes at or above Hornet Queen's level.
I'm honestly not even sure how you would take this as a jab:
Pelakka Wurm may be better than Hornet Queen in different cubes with different playgroups.
You guys like Morphling enough to still cube with him, but I think a lot of playgroups (if not most) would disagree, so there's always room for different cards to be legitimately better for different cubes (and different playgroups).
No one else took this as a jab because it wasn't intended as one.
-------
Anyway, let's just make up and all be friends and go on to talk more about green fatties. We can all get behind that.
Hey Colby, I'm really sorry you feel that way. That was certainly not my intention in this thread or in others.
I've explained why it's not a double standard, but I understand if you don't want to agree. There are certain cards where you're able to use your experience with other similar cards to draw from when evaluating. Wheel vs Reforge is one example of this, because of the effect. I felt like my experience with Wheel prepared me to evaluate Reforge, because I've been cubing Wheel for a long time, and all the things about that card that make it good are missing from Reforge. Other cards are similar to this as well, experiences with Incinerate help to evaluate Lightning Strike and so on. I think I have enough experience with Wheel to comfortably state that I have zero interest in Reforge.
That didn't apply here. I couldn't draw on my experiences with Wurm to show me how Hornet Queen would play. I had to playtest both against each other to formulate an opinion that helps me make the right choice for my cube. You're right in that it will ultimately be up to each individual playgroup to determine which green fatty is best for them (just like every other card). But in my experience, Hornet Queen has been the much better card. I asked about your experiences between the two cards because they're similar in form and function to one another, meaning that the experiences you draw from them will play a bigger role in which you prefer more than a paper evaluation will. That's all. I was simply curious to see if your opinion might be different once testing them out against each other head to head, which is experience gathering that doesn't apply the way that it might in the case of Reforge.
Anyways, all we can do is hope to move on and have productive discussion from here forward. I apologize for my part in the derailing of this thread, and hopefully it'll slide back on track organically.
..........
Edit: Whoops, that was in response to the post on the previous page.
Anyway, let's just make up and all be friends and go on to talk more about green fatties. We can all get behind that.
This sounds great. There really is no ill-will, and I think we can do just this and be fine with it.
fwiw I like Pelakka Wurm over Hornet Queen, but not by a ton and would happily run both. My green ramp decks more often than not suffer to aggressive decks and I feel that the 7 life + the big, nigh-unkillable-by-burn body of the wurm does more to stop the pain being dealt than a bunch of fliers that are often trading with whatever is attacking or getting taken apart by arc lightning type effects. That being said, the army that Hornet Queen brings to the table is sweet, and in the long run she does a fine job of mitigating most beat downs as well.
It really all depends on match up where one is better than the other; sometimes you need to gain life, sometimes to need to fly over their heads, sometimes you need to get out of the red zone, etc. and for those reasons I like to run both.
Moving forward, seems like there is a lot of variance in opinions on these four/five guys. Would be interesting to deconstruct which cube characteristics favor which choices or if it is more personal preference than anything.
Yeah, I think that's really constructive.
For those of you still interested in discussing the topic:
Can you rank these following cards (in any order) and give a short summary on your cube size (and if there's anything special about it that may affect your ranking) and maybe a short sentence or two on why you rank them the way you do? Thanks!
I'd honestly be interested in a topic talking about Greens upper end of creatures from 4 CMC and up in general. I tried looking before but I probably didn't search long enough for one.
I'll get you some dip for that chip on your shoulder and we can be friends again.
..........
What makes these green fatties good are the board presence and the stabilization. Hornet Queen has shown itself to be much better at doing both. YMMV, of course. But my experiences have shown Queen to be much better. And that's all I can share, are my experiences and my opinions.
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Edit: Whoa accidentally stumbled into a meta-fight in here
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
Pelakka Wurm is good. I rate it joint third in the green fatties, behind Primus and Hornet Queen, but equal to Terastodon. Because of this I swap Wurm/'Don in and out of my cube from time to time.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Ya, this whole thread got turned sideways really quick.
I went back and forth between those two for quite a while myself. Wound up keeping the Terastodon because it pulled me out of some really narrow spots where spot removal against the Wurm would've been nasty, and it deals with problematic permanents that held Wurm at bay.
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I feel the same way about Wurm and Don. Honestly, the trample and chump blocking came up enough times that I probably prefer the Wurm.
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Another voice for Queen and Primus as Tier 1, Terastodon and Pelakka as Tier 2, and Avenger etc Tier 3. Like cuttups I slightly prefer Pelakka over Terastodon, but I currently do not run either.
I would agree that Queen is better then Pelakka in most all cases, which is better then Avenger. That said, Avenger is super fun for example, and frankly if you rather play him over the 'don or Pelakka, or even Hornet Queen, I can see why you would.
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The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
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The Behemoth is a ton of fun, particularly with crazy token producers like Symbol Status. We played the Behemoth for quite a while and had some pretty huge blow outs with that combo (swinging for 140+ trample damage). That said, as wtwlf pointed out it was a creature that we were always sad to see reanimated or cheated in. It is a late-game or bust creature, but with a very strong token theme that can be just fine. Pelakka is a much better rounded card, but less cool. You are spot on though, test them both and see what you think cause they care close overall I'd say.
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It wasn't a cheap shot, lol. Just a playful comment when the direction of the thread changed from talking about the focus of the [SCD] and switched to talking about a past debate where I disagreed with Colby. It seemed clear to me that he was more upset about me not liking Reforge than it was about me thinking Queen was better than Wurm.
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I made literally two posts about Reforge, please.
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Anyways, it's over. Wurm is a fine card. I just think Queen is better. Apparently that's upsetting to some, but what can you do?
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It's more the tone of your posts than the argument itself (like the chip on the shoulder thing seemed really out of place.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Goodness.
Also, that "tone" and the chip on the shoulder bit was brought up AFTER I was criticized for evaluating Reforge and not liking Wurm as much as Queen. Previous to that, all I had said was that I thought Queen was better.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That kind of thing really isn't conducive to discussion.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Well, I certainly can't speak to how anyone else took your posts, but for me it seems that you're trying to play both sides of the coin.
On the one hand, you say that you think Queen is so much better than Wurm insomuch as to stand behind wording that could apply to Ancestral vs. Brainstorm because of your experience.
You asked me if I had actually cubed Pelakka Wurm, seemingly calling question to my opinions because I didn't have experience to back it up.
This however runs completely contrary to your posts on the other thread, where you dismissed a card completely because you knew how a similar card played. Not the actual card in question, just a similar card. Any experience I had with a card was completely dismissed, with a capital B for Butt, even though I had experience to back up my claims as well.
You're trying to say that your experiences and opinions are valuable, but when you trample over other people's opinions and experiences it makes you appear like a hypocrite and a bully.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Geez, is there any way to get the thread back on track? It's long over. Lets talk about green fatties instead!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I've never even said how highly I value Pelakka Wurm, largely because I have absolutely no cube experience with it. My only argument was that the card can likely be valued in other playgroups/cube sizes at or above Hornet Queen's level.
I'm honestly not even sure how you would take this as a jab:
No one else took this as a jab because it wasn't intended as one.
-------
Anyway, let's just make up and all be friends and go on to talk more about green fatties. We can all get behind that.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I've explained why it's not a double standard, but I understand if you don't want to agree. There are certain cards where you're able to use your experience with other similar cards to draw from when evaluating. Wheel vs Reforge is one example of this, because of the effect. I felt like my experience with Wheel prepared me to evaluate Reforge, because I've been cubing Wheel for a long time, and all the things about that card that make it good are missing from Reforge. Other cards are similar to this as well, experiences with Incinerate help to evaluate Lightning Strike and so on. I think I have enough experience with Wheel to comfortably state that I have zero interest in Reforge.
That didn't apply here. I couldn't draw on my experiences with Wurm to show me how Hornet Queen would play. I had to playtest both against each other to formulate an opinion that helps me make the right choice for my cube. You're right in that it will ultimately be up to each individual playgroup to determine which green fatty is best for them (just like every other card). But in my experience, Hornet Queen has been the much better card. I asked about your experiences between the two cards because they're similar in form and function to one another, meaning that the experiences you draw from them will play a bigger role in which you prefer more than a paper evaluation will. That's all. I was simply curious to see if your opinion might be different once testing them out against each other head to head, which is experience gathering that doesn't apply the way that it might in the case of Reforge.
Anyways, all we can do is hope to move on and have productive discussion from here forward. I apologize for my part in the derailing of this thread, and hopefully it'll slide back on track organically.
..........
Edit: Whoops, that was in response to the post on the previous page.
This sounds great. There really is no ill-will, and I think we can do just this and be fine with it.
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It really all depends on match up where one is better than the other; sometimes you need to gain life, sometimes to need to fly over their heads, sometimes you need to get out of the red zone, etc. and for those reasons I like to run both.
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Yeah, I think that's really constructive.
For those of you still interested in discussing the topic:
Can you rank these following cards (in any order) and give a short summary on your cube size (and if there's anything special about it that may affect your ranking) and maybe a short sentence or two on why you rank them the way you do? Thanks!
Terastodon / Woodfall Primus / Hornet Queen / Pelakka Wurm / Avenger of Zendikar / Craterhoof Behemoth
------ Actually, this may be better as a MCD topic. Is there one already up that we can continue this discussion on?
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