Has there been your experience as a Cube manager, Colby? Because I have some rather inexperienced players in my playgroup and I can't imagine any one of them suggesting I should consider a card any different way because of its rarity, and to be quite frank I never knew someone that might do that. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just genuinely curious.
It's not so much about suggesting cuts or additions because of rarity, it's the bias involved with not realizing a card is good because it's a common or uncommon.
When my players asked what I was adding from M15, I ran through the list and they wondered if Boarderland Marauder was good enough. I referenced Gore-House Chainwalker and it made sense to them. I think they may have initially undervalued it because it's a common.
Mahamoti Djinn is being printed only in the Deckbuilder's toolkit and in the beginner decks that are given for free to new players; although they are both technically from M15, I would argue it's not correct to say they are being printed in the same set.
Ahh, okay, I did not know that. I think the argument still holds weight, but yeah, good distinction to make.
We've gotten in a few weeks of testing with Pelakka Wurm.
It is significantly worse than Woodfall Primus, Hornet Queen, and Terastodon. It's about on par with Worldspine Wurm, although the cards are obviously significantly different, and fit into different archetypes, and certainly work differently with the type of support in any given cube.
I'd say Worldspine Wurm is more valuable for my cube (although not significantly so). A 360 card cube really only needs 4 giant green fatties (3 will actually do the trick in most cases, but we like having the 4th), and we'll be running the former 4 in the future and we'll be cutting P. Wurm.
It's made our reanimator and super ramp decks and we've been pleased with it in both, but I do believe the other options are better. 7 life and a card draw is not really on par with what the other big guys bring to the table. After testing it, I'm in agreement with wtwlf123 when he says that Hornet Queen is better in most cases.
We've gotten in a few weeks of testing with Pelakka Wurm.
It is significantly worse than Woodfall Primus, Hornet Queen, and Terastodon. It's about on par with Worldspine Wurm, although the cards are obviously significantly different, and fit into different archetypes, and certainly work differently with the type of support in any given cube.
I'd say Worldspine Wurm is more valuable for my cube (although not significantly so). A 360 card cube really only needs 4 giant green fatties (3 will actually do the trick in most cases, but we like having the 4th), and we'll be running the former 4 in the future and we'll be cutting P. Wurm.
It's made our reanimator and super ramp decks and we've been pleased with it in both, but I do believe the other options are better. 7 life and a card draw is not really on par with what the other big guys bring to the table. After testing it, I'm in agreement with wtwlf123 when he says that Hornet Queen is better in most cases.
I agree with your assessment completely (although my group has grown ill of Terastodon) Woodfall Primus and Hornet Queen are untouchable at any cube size in my opinion. After that there are about a half dozen fatties that all do the job fairly well. 4 is probably about right for quantity. My group likes the epicness of Worldspine, and it is basically 'win the game' more than the others. It doesn't reanimate so I always make sure all of my other fatties can(but I also play griselbrand for that). We are using Pelakka Wurm for now, and it is fine, but I will probably just keep rotating that 4th slot to keep it interesting and see if one of my players finds an especially good combo with one.
I love Pelakka Wurm. It's one of my favorite Green fatties. The 7 life and Trample are brutal and running super ramp he has never been tough to get out. In my 450 I run it right next to Hornet Queen (Thanks M15!) and top out my curve with Woodfall Primus and Terastodon.
As for the whole rarity thing, I am SO HAPPY when a kick-ass common or uncommon comes out that is cube worthy. They are easy to get in foil and affordable as well. I will frequently buy a copy of a cube-able card at common and uncommon for the on-deck binder or my "box of cube worthy stuff that isn't good enough for the binder" regardless if I am going to immediately run it. They can be nice just to have if I want to swap out a few cards for freshness sake.
For what it is worth, my playgroup doesn't pay attention to rarity at all <old guy rant>however, in OUR day rarity wasn't advertised - we had to figure that out for ourselves and we liked it! Sometimes sets didn't even HAVE any rares and we had to "make do" with uncommons.</old guy rant>
The four that I would run at 450 would be Primus, Terastodon, Hornet Queen, and Worldspine Wurm. Pelakka Wurm is interchangable with Worldspine Wurm, depending on if you need more reanimation / "low" CMC ramp targets.
We've enjoyed having Worldspine Wurm to make Eureka, Show and Tell, Through the Breach, Sneak Attack, Natural Order, and Flash(!) more exciting.
I would play all 5 at 540+ and then above that start looking at slightly different options.
Pelakka Wurm is solid value but just plain boring. It doesn't really give the payoff you deserve for cheating or ramping him into play like the others. I view Primus, Queen and Terastadon as the top three in that order, no question. If your cube needs more than those three it's definitely up to personal taste at that point.
Shocked to see so many people down on Primus though. I don't run swords nor power and I still consistently have juicy targets for him. But I feel that discussion is missing the real point which is "HE HAS PERSIST".
Lastly, re:Terastadon, I get the impression way too many people are either afraid to do it, or don't fully understand how often the right decision is to blow up 3 of your own lands and just swing for the win with a team of elephant buddies.
I find Pelakka Wurm to be the 3rd best after Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus. I like it more than Terastodon personally. 7 life is clutch and replacing itself when it dies is also relevant. I wouldn't run it at 360 but any higher and I'd say yes.
Pelakka Wurm is solid value but just plain boring. It doesn't really give the payoff you deserve for cheating or ramping him into play like the others. I view Primus, Queen and Terastadon as the top three in that order, no question. If your cube needs more than those three it's definitely up to personal taste at that point.
Shocked to see so many people down on Primus though. I don't run swords nor power and I still consistently have juicy targets for him. But I feel that discussion is missing the real point which is "HE HAS PERSIST".
Lastly, re:Terastadon, I get the impression way too many people are either afraid to do it, or don't fully understand how often the right decision is to blow up 3 of your own lands and just swing for the win with a team of elephant buddies.
Yeah about terastadon... Last time I tried the old natural order my mana dork, blow up my 3 lands it was followed by a a control magic and lots of laughter. All of the other fatties discussed provide card advantage beyond the main body and evasion. This guy can be blowout city, but so can lots of things. I need my fatties to be almost bulletproof. Sure there are times in my ramp decks that I have dozens of lands to spare, but I am usually trying to cheat and hitting 3 of my own lands is often terrible. I was usually better blowing up 2 of their lands and winning because I could out combat with my bigger creatures, and they would be slowed enough by land loss. The elephant is unlikely to ever come back in my cube.
Blowing up 3 of your own lands isn't usually the right way to play the card. Could be why it didn't perform well for you. Terastodon is a complicated spell. Every time it resolves there's a different combination of targets on each side of the board that is ideal. A lot of it comes from what you anticipate your opponent's deck needing to do, and what you plan on doing post-Elephant. It's a really powerful creature when the right decisions are made with it, but that's not an easy/natural thing to accomplish. It seems to be getting better and better the more we play with the card, as we learn the nuances involved with playing it right. Most fatties in the cube are cast and forget. Terastodon's a thinker.
Yeah about terastadon... Last time I tried the old natural order my mana dork, blow up my 3 lands it was followed by a a control magic and lots of laughter.
I still might rather have Terastodon here rather than Woodfall Primus or Pelakka Wurm.
Blowing up 3 of your own lands isn't usually the right way to play the card. Could be why it didn't perform well for you. Terastodon is a complicated spell. Every time it resolves there's a different combination of targets on each side of the board that is ideal. A lot of it comes from what you anticipate your opponent's deck needing to do, and what you plan on doing post-Elephant. It's a really powerful creature when the right decisions are made with it, but that's not an easy/natural thing to accomplish. It seems to be getting better and better the more we play with the card, as we learn the nuances involved with playing it right. Most fatties in the cube are cast and forget. Terastodon's a thinker.
Yep. I really like Terastodon's versatility. It's UP TO THREE as well, so a lot of times he comes down and only blows up 1-2 things.
I've blown up three of my lands too many times to count, but more often it's blowing up two enemy things + one of your unnecessary permanents.
Yeah about terastadon... Last time I tried the old natural order my mana dork, blow up my 3 lands it was followed by a a control magic and lots of laughter.
I still might rather have Terastodon here rather than Woodfall Primus or Pelakka Wurm.
In that situation, probably. At least one of the triggers should've been aimed at a blue source, it sounds like.
I still think many people are afraid to blow up their own stuff. Of course it isn't always right. But I repeatedly see it happen. I think it's a mode of the card that's often disregarded when really it only adds to the versatility.
I always look for interesting plays to make with Terastodon because changing unnecessary permanents into good ones is a great part of the card. Getting some 3/3s in addition to your 9/9 is just icing on the cake.
My normal thought process involving Terastodon goes something like: "Okay, if I bring this out, do I need to kill anything on the enemy side? Okay, what about my stuff? How will the board look after I blow these things up? Would it be better to blow them up this way?" Etc.
The first place I look is at my opponent's manabase, and see if there's whole colors I can keep them off, etc. Taking out their only two plains pretty much keeps them off the Wrath plan for the rest of the game.
The most typical Terastodon play I've found when cheated into play is blow up 2 of their lands and 1 of mine. Of course there's always influencing factors (i.e. planeswalkers), but it isn't often I use him exclusively on my own permanents. Don't forget, it's "up to 3", so if you're hurting to keep all your non-land permanents and don't want to give them 3 3/3s, you have that choice. Its versatility and pure size is what makes it much preferable to Pelakka Wurm.
Pelakka Wurm has a place in my heart but I don't believe it has a place in cube. There's too many better green cards. I would rank Avenger of Zendikar as more powerful, in addition to the commonplace package of Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, and Hornet Queen. It's more on the level of Elderscale Wurm to me.
The most typical Terastodon play I've found when cheated into play is blow up 2 of their lands and 1 of mine.
This is probably the most common play for me too. Sometimes replacing 1 of their land targets for 1 powerful non-land card like a Sword or 'Walker or something. But they usually wind up with 2 elephant tokens and me with 1.
It's not so much about suggesting cuts or additions because of rarity, it's the bias involved with not realizing a card is good because it's a common or uncommon.
When my players asked what I was adding from M15, I ran through the list and they wondered if Boarderland Marauder was good enough. I referenced Gore-House Chainwalker and it made sense to them. I think they may have initially undervalued it because it's a common.
Ahh, okay, I did not know that. I think the argument still holds weight, but yeah, good distinction to make.
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It is significantly worse than Woodfall Primus, Hornet Queen, and Terastodon. It's about on par with Worldspine Wurm, although the cards are obviously significantly different, and fit into different archetypes, and certainly work differently with the type of support in any given cube.
I'd say Worldspine Wurm is more valuable for my cube (although not significantly so). A 360 card cube really only needs 4 giant green fatties (3 will actually do the trick in most cases, but we like having the 4th), and we'll be running the former 4 in the future and we'll be cutting P. Wurm.
It's made our reanimator and super ramp decks and we've been pleased with it in both, but I do believe the other options are better. 7 life and a card draw is not really on par with what the other big guys bring to the table. After testing it, I'm in agreement with wtwlf123 when he says that Hornet Queen is better in most cases.
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I agree with your assessment completely (although my group has grown ill of Terastodon) Woodfall Primus and Hornet Queen are untouchable at any cube size in my opinion. After that there are about a half dozen fatties that all do the job fairly well. 4 is probably about right for quantity. My group likes the epicness of Worldspine, and it is basically 'win the game' more than the others. It doesn't reanimate so I always make sure all of my other fatties can(but I also play griselbrand for that). We are using Pelakka Wurm for now, and it is fine, but I will probably just keep rotating that 4th slot to keep it interesting and see if one of my players finds an especially good combo with one.
As for the whole rarity thing, I am SO HAPPY when a kick-ass common or uncommon comes out that is cube worthy. They are easy to get in foil and affordable as well. I will frequently buy a copy of a cube-able card at common and uncommon for the on-deck binder or my "box of cube worthy stuff that isn't good enough for the binder" regardless if I am going to immediately run it. They can be nice just to have if I want to swap out a few cards for freshness sake.
For what it is worth, my playgroup doesn't pay attention to rarity at all <old guy rant>however, in OUR day rarity wasn't advertised - we had to figure that out for ourselves and we liked it! Sometimes sets didn't even HAVE any rares and we had to "make do" with uncommons.</old guy rant>
We've enjoyed having Worldspine Wurm to make Eureka, Show and Tell, Through the Breach, Sneak Attack, Natural Order, and Flash(!) more exciting.
I would play all 5 at 540+ and then above that start looking at slightly different options.
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Shocked to see so many people down on Primus though. I don't run swords nor power and I still consistently have juicy targets for him. But I feel that discussion is missing the real point which is "HE HAS PERSIST".
Lastly, re:Terastadon, I get the impression way too many people are either afraid to do it, or don't fully understand how often the right decision is to blow up 3 of your own lands and just swing for the win with a team of elephant buddies.
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Yeah about terastadon... Last time I tried the old natural order my mana dork, blow up my 3 lands it was followed by a a control magic and lots of laughter. All of the other fatties discussed provide card advantage beyond the main body and evasion. This guy can be blowout city, but so can lots of things. I need my fatties to be almost bulletproof. Sure there are times in my ramp decks that I have dozens of lands to spare, but I am usually trying to cheat and hitting 3 of my own lands is often terrible. I was usually better blowing up 2 of their lands and winning because I could out combat with my bigger creatures, and they would be slowed enough by land loss. The elephant is unlikely to ever come back in my cube.
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I still might rather have Terastodon here rather than Woodfall Primus or Pelakka Wurm.
Yep. I really like Terastodon's versatility. It's UP TO THREE as well, so a lot of times he comes down and only blows up 1-2 things.
I've blown up three of my lands too many times to count, but more often it's blowing up two enemy things + one of your unnecessary permanents.
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In that situation, probably. At least one of the triggers should've been aimed at a blue source, it sounds like.
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My normal thought process involving Terastodon goes something like: "Okay, if I bring this out, do I need to kill anything on the enemy side? Okay, what about my stuff? How will the board look after I blow these things up? Would it be better to blow them up this way?" Etc.
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Pelakka Wurm has a place in my heart but I don't believe it has a place in cube. There's too many better green cards. I would rank Avenger of Zendikar as more powerful, in addition to the commonplace package of Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, and Hornet Queen. It's more on the level of Elderscale Wurm to me.
This is probably the most common play for me too. Sometimes replacing 1 of their land targets for 1 powerful non-land card like a Sword or 'Walker or something. But they usually wind up with 2 elephant tokens and me with 1.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!