I think the (obvious) comparison with Fact or Fiction is misleading people a bit. FoF was recently voted the 14th best Blue card in Cube, and that's including a bunch of broken stuff that many Cubes don't even run for balance reasons. This card is not better than FoF (overall). It's quite a bit worse. But the fact that it compares favorably to FoF in at least some (not irrelevant) respects speaks volumes about its power level.
I'm relatively sure it beats out all other mass card drawers in the game, apart from maybe Mulldrifter and Deep Analysis, and those are definitely debatable.
If I pick one of these up, I'll probably test it over Gifts Ungiven. I've come to realize that its more of a pet card for me, and I've never seen it do anything powerful. :/
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
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I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
The more I think about the card, the more I like it.
At the lower end of it's ACS, you could realistically expect to be paying 3UU for it on T5. Compare it at that cost to other draw spells out there. Tidings gives you more CA, but arguably worse card quality and it's a sorcery (which hurts card draw a lot, IMO ...particularly selective draw spells). Jace's Ingenuity draws 1 extra card, but I don't think it's even close to as good as the selection is on Dig. So even when this card is on its lower end of average, it represents an effect that's stronger than a Fact or Fiction resolution for an additional U mana. Which is fair.
Now, the card can only really get better from there. When you can cast the card for 2UU (which could be T5 or T6), it's incredible value. Better than any other draw spell at that cost by far, and it still has the ability to get better from there. At 1UU it's arguably the best draw effect out there, and at UU, it's just completely insane.
The truest definition of WCS doesn't really apply, IMO, because even when you're losing a game and in need of digging for outs, stuff will be going into your graveyard. So at the same time in the game where you might be casting other top-end draw options, this card shouldn't ever cost more than 4UU, and that would be if things are as bad as they can be. Most of the time, I imagine that on T5 it'll cost 3UU, and on T6+ it should cost 4 mana or less. And that's assuming you don't have cards that interact well with it, like Life From the Loam, Enclave Cryptogolist, Looter il-Kor, Faithless Looting, Dack Fayden or the like.
I think that a realistic expectation of this card will scale from at least being a competitive 5cc draw spell to being maybe the best draw spell in the game at 2-mana, and everything in between. But I have a hard time seeing this card being complete trash, unless it's being played in the wrong deck. Assume that the role will be securing the game-winning cards at the end of your curve in midrange or control decks, and I don't think you can go wrong if you're using it to that effect.
I'll be testing it at even the small cube I'm running now, and I feel it has a good chance to do some work there. Not anything super broken (not consistently anyways) but it'l have varying degrees of performance from serviceable to insane. I think that at least warrants testing.
edit: oops, went dyslexic on what someone said and thought they were making an opposite statement.
new message. This Card is gud. Jace architect of thought is super underrated around here would never cut that card for this, but don't derail the thread to debate me!
Deep Analysis is splashable 4-for-1 card advantage that gets value even if it's lost without casting it and can always be played on T4 (or earlier) despite what else may be going on. I think it's better than this.
At first I thought, very strong effect, probably too expensive. But it's true that at 3UU it should be worth it, any cheaper and it's great.
The question remains, what to cut? If we assume to play this on average at 3UU it'd still be the most expensive card draw effect in most cubes (except for some draw sevens, i.e. Time Spiral). The cheaper draw spells (< 4 CMC) serve a bit of a different role than more expensive ones. They fill the curve before you wrath or drop a fatty. At 4+ CMC we run Fact or Fiction, Deep Analysis, Gifts Ungiven, Mulldrifter, and Time Spiral.
It's definitely not better than FoF. I also wouldn't cut Deep Analysis or Mulldrifter for it. Maybe it could go in over Gifts Ungiven.
I really don't think it is. Yeah, triple U is harsh and it always cost 5, but we're talking about a card no one is actually cubing. I think I'll pass on this one.
I really don't think it is. Yeah, triple U is harsh and it always cost 5, but we're talking about a card no one is actually cubing. I think I'll pass on this one.
Wow, did not expect Wizards to print such a powerful draw spell as an instant. With a fetchland each turn and a spell each turn, you can cast this for 1UU on turn three in Legacy or Modern! In Standard and Cube, it is more balanced, of course. Still looks like a less splashable Fact or Fiction to me. Which means that it should be good in cube. Blue control decks love instant card draw and should be able to get three cards into their graveyard by turn five. And even if they don't: As long as you have other spells to cast, you can wait a turn or two to refill your hand. Definitely going to include this at 600.
I really don't think it is. Yeah, triple U is harsh and it always cost 5, but we're talking about a card no one is actually cubing. I think I'll pass on this one.
Yes I it's clearly worse.
It's realistically quite easy to get 3-5 cards in your graveyard relatively quickly if you are blue.
Especially if you build around it a little.
Now instant speed card draw is >>>> sorcery speed card draw. I think it's almost worth a full mana point.
Historically wizards does cost instants a full mana point higher and triple of a color is almost a full mana penalty. So really is is not contest. I like the idea of being able to use it early if I cycle through cards in a proactive or storm style deck, but it also being amazing in a super control deck where it will just get easier and easier to fit it in at the end of turn. Pairs nicely with waterfront bouncer, prgnostic sphinx etc.
I really don't think it is. Yeah, triple U is harsh and it always cost 5, but we're talking about a card no one is actually cubing. I think I'll pass on this one.
I'd play Ancestral Memories if it were instant, in which case, it'd still be worse than this card.
Yes. Light years ahead of that card. It's triple blue, it's a sorcery, and it always costs 5 mana. This card is an instant and more splashable version of that card in pretty much every reasonable scenario. The difference between the instant and sorcery is HUGE. And the fact that quite often it can be played for 4 mana or less makes all the difference in the world.
I think Phyrexian Arena is a good comparison to Jace Beleren.
Phyrexian Arena is, imo, very borderline 360 -- I think it's a good cut for new black options from Khans. I cut it from my 360 before Khans because it just doesn't have enough immediate impact. Blue is way more stacked than black, so I think Jace is an easier cut from 360 lists.
I'd much rather run Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive Research, or some other 3cmc blue spell that gets me more value right now and provides additional utility (such as discarding fatties if I need it). The two options I listed are also easier to cast, but I'm not really making a giant point for them over Jace Beleren, since I wouldn't run those at 360 either.
Obviously people are welcome to disagree, but I think Jace Beleren's time in small cubes has come and gone. He's still a great choice in medium sized cubes though.
Good call, I think I may cut compulsive research to give this thing a shot.
I think it's going to be testable at all cube sizes, and may only make larger ones. That being said, I expect to play this at 540 but I may be wrong.
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At the lower end of it's ACS, you could realistically expect to be paying 3UU for it on T5. Compare it at that cost to other draw spells out there. Tidings gives you more CA, but arguably worse card quality and it's a sorcery (which hurts card draw a lot, IMO ...particularly selective draw spells). Jace's Ingenuity draws 1 extra card, but I don't think it's even close to as good as the selection is on Dig. So even when this card is on its lower end of average, it represents an effect that's stronger than a Fact or Fiction resolution for an additional U mana. Which is fair.
Now, the card can only really get better from there. When you can cast the card for 2UU (which could be T5 or T6), it's incredible value. Better than any other draw spell at that cost by far, and it still has the ability to get better from there. At 1UU it's arguably the best draw effect out there, and at UU, it's just completely insane.
The truest definition of WCS doesn't really apply, IMO, because even when you're losing a game and in need of digging for outs, stuff will be going into your graveyard. So at the same time in the game where you might be casting other top-end draw options, this card shouldn't ever cost more than 4UU, and that would be if things are as bad as they can be. Most of the time, I imagine that on T5 it'll cost 3UU, and on T6+ it should cost 4 mana or less. And that's assuming you don't have cards that interact well with it, like Life From the Loam, Enclave Cryptogolist, Looter il-Kor, Faithless Looting, Dack Fayden or the like.
I think that a realistic expectation of this card will scale from at least being a competitive 5cc draw spell to being maybe the best draw spell in the game at 2-mana, and everything in between. But I have a hard time seeing this card being complete trash, unless it's being played in the wrong deck. Assume that the role will be securing the game-winning cards at the end of your curve in midrange or control decks, and I don't think you can go wrong if you're using it to that effect.
I'll be testing it at even the small cube I'm running now, and I feel it has a good chance to do some work there. Not anything super broken (not consistently anyways) but it'l have varying degrees of performance from serviceable to insane. I think that at least warrants testing.
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I'm keen to see some actual test results for this card.
new message. This Card is gud. Jace architect of thought is super underrated around here would never cut that card for this, but don't derail the thread to debate me!
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The question remains, what to cut? If we assume to play this on average at 3UU it'd still be the most expensive card draw effect in most cubes (except for some draw sevens, i.e. Time Spiral). The cheaper draw spells (< 4 CMC) serve a bit of a different role than more expensive ones. They fill the curve before you wrath or drop a fatty. At 4+ CMC we run Fact or Fiction, Deep Analysis, Gifts Ungiven, Mulldrifter, and Time Spiral.
It's definitely not better than FoF. I also wouldn't cut Deep Analysis or Mulldrifter for it. Maybe it could go in over Gifts Ungiven.
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I really don't think it is. Yeah, triple U is harsh and it always cost 5, but we're talking about a card no one is actually cubing. I think I'll pass on this one.
Its also a sorcery. Which is huge.
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Yes I it's clearly worse.
It's realistically quite easy to get 3-5 cards in your graveyard relatively quickly if you are blue.
Especially if you build around it a little.
Now instant speed card draw is >>>> sorcery speed card draw. I think it's almost worth a full mana point.
Then add tripple blue and... GOODBYE
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I'd play Ancestral Memories if it were instant, in which case, it'd still be worse than this card.
Yes. Light years ahead of that card. It's triple blue, it's a sorcery, and it always costs 5 mana. This card is an instant and more splashable version of that card in pretty much every reasonable scenario. The difference between the instant and sorcery is HUGE. And the fact that quite often it can be played for 4 mana or less makes all the difference in the world.
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Phyrexian Arena is, imo, very borderline 360 -- I think it's a good cut for new black options from Khans. I cut it from my 360 before Khans because it just doesn't have enough immediate impact. Blue is way more stacked than black, so I think Jace is an easier cut from 360 lists.
I'd much rather run Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive Research, or some other 3cmc blue spell that gets me more value right now and provides additional utility (such as discarding fatties if I need it). The two options I listed are also easier to cast, but I'm not really making a giant point for them over Jace Beleren, since I wouldn't run those at 360 either.
Obviously people are welcome to disagree, but I think Jace Beleren's time in small cubes has come and gone. He's still a great choice in medium sized cubes though.
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