I much prefer Jace to Compulsive and Thirst because sometimes you can use Jace to just win the game. Also, walkers make opponents nervous so he sometimes draws cards and soaks up damage. Jace vs. Timetwister is a lot closer. I think I side with 'twister but I'd try to find something else.
I much prefer Jace to Compulsive and Thirst because sometimes you can use Jace to just win the game. Also, walkers make opponents nervous so he sometimes draws cards and soaks up damage. Jace vs. Timetwister is a lot closer. I think I side with 'twister but I'd try to find something else.
Jace does give you an immediate draw. And it's significantly better than the 3cc filter spell variants, IMO. It's an arena that immediately replaces itself and doesn't do damage to you. There's no way I'd cut it, even at 360.
There's absolutely no way you'd cut it? Is it that high on your list of blue cards? How many cards in your blue section do you think are more cuttable than Jace Beleren?
The only cards in your cube I would consider more cuttable are Waterfront Bouncer and Faerie Conclave.
The comparison of Jace with Phyrexian Arena pops up time and again. What often gets overlooked is how Jace draws the first card immediately, so he's always one turn/card ahead of Arena.
I didn't overlook that fact. In fact, I mentioned it the last time the comparison came up in July:
If you're looking for immediate impact, Frantic Search, Compulsive Research, and Thirst for Knowledge all do the job better than Jace does. I think Frantic Search is good enough for 360 while the other options are not as good, but I think many here would disagree with me. Frantic Search is really underrated, IMO.
I think Jace is better than Phyrexian Arena, my views on that haven't changed in 2 months. At the same time, Phyrexian Arena would probably have a better shot of making a 360 I'm building because black is not nearly as deep as blue.
EDIT: Also, interestingly enough, you posted an eerily similar comment on that thread in about the same order of these posts! Seems history is repeating itself!
Honestly, until a discussion like this comes up every so often my group tends to forget that Arena and Beleren see such heavy play. I'm sure I've made this comment before but it seems to me their time has passed, at least for full draft 8 man cubes (ie ~360/375 up to maybe 400). We are sort of sympathetic to JB because it is a better Memory Adept with Magical Hacker (although several of the other PW are better than that)
At any rate, there is absolutely no way Beleren is close to Timetwister, not even if you play the Hacker. In particular they aren't even really comparable cards at all.
Baby Jace is pretty nuts. I'll take non-immediate results to have a potential win con attached to my life-gaining draw engine. Definitely like it better than Thirst and Compulsive at 360 level, even with a powered cube.
Re:Dig through Time--this card seems acceptable at 3UU, as there are plenty of mid-to-late game turns where you're still playing draw-go and the graveyard may not be that full/2UU-or-less full. I like it more than Timetwister in any non-storm cube as I find Timetwister to come up lacking too often; at least DTT (damn, so close to DDT...) is asymmetrical.
Like probably a small step behind Fact or Fiction. The only reason it's not better is because FoF can be played early on with ramp and it can be played with only one source of blue. But the effect on Dig is stronger, and I'd rather have Dig in the mid/late-game than FoF (assuming I'm playing a deck that can support UU with its manabase). Dig is perhaps blue's best topdeck.
I'm very angry about this card. It shot up to $20 before I could get anywhere to buy it, so now I'm stuck waiting for it to stop seeing play in Standard.
Really excited to cube with it though.
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Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Honestly, after playing with the card and having it played against me, I think I'd take this over Fact or Fiction a majority of the time. My cube probably is set up for more bonkers interactions, but it's been really great here.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I think a lot of people speculated on this card and cashed out. From how well I've heard this card do in testing, and hearing that it is something you would want 4x of, you might want to pick them up unless you're willing to wait until rotation.
I've been in Canada, and this is the only card from KTK I've really had much time with... but I can say for sure it's fun and strong as hell. Our predictions on the podcast (out very soon...) played out quite well, I'm happy to say! Averaging at about 4 mana, it's a superb effect and digs so deep into the deck for a certain effect.
I do not ever seeing this take over for FoF, but it can be on the same level. FoF can always be cast on t4 or earlier, while Dig cannot. Also, lots of games of information to be played.
The more and more I play with the card... The more I think it's on FoF's level of power.
My cube has a few more cantrips and fetch lands to feul it than most cubes tho.
It's not as good as a cube card because it goes in far less decks than FoF. But in the decks that cast it and cantrip, it's as good if not better than FoF imo.
It's more powerful (powerful =/= better) than Fact or Fiction. It's also more expensive. Of course that's to be expected because if the cards cost the same amount, Dig would be almost strictly better. More powerful means higher converted mana cost.
I don't want to be casting Fact or Fiction on turn 3-4. I would rather be playing creatures, removal spells, counterspells, etc.
The (usually) lower cost is certainly better than Dig. However, most of the time when I'm casting Fact, I can also cast Dig, and Dig is just better in those scenarios. It's also far better if you're playing with any type of combos, which increase its pick value.
I'm not saying Dig is better than Fact. I'm just saying for my personal cube drafting style, and in my particular cube, I actually prefer to take Dig over FoF most of the time.
Cheers,
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rant
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The only cards in your cube I would consider more cuttable are Waterfront Bouncer and Faerie Conclave.
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Whoa.
Okay. That's a lot of cards.
EDIT: I think it's really funny we have the same opinion on a lot of cards, but other ones we are way different on. Magic is a hard game.
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I didn't overlook that fact. In fact, I mentioned it the last time the comparison came up in July:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/card-and-archetype-discussion/561834-jace-beleren#c11
If you're looking for immediate impact, Frantic Search, Compulsive Research, and Thirst for Knowledge all do the job better than Jace does. I think Frantic Search is good enough for 360 while the other options are not as good, but I think many here would disagree with me. Frantic Search is really underrated, IMO.
I think Jace is better than Phyrexian Arena, my views on that haven't changed in 2 months. At the same time, Phyrexian Arena would probably have a better shot of making a 360 I'm building because black is not nearly as deep as blue.
EDIT: Also, interestingly enough, you posted an eerily similar comment on that thread in about the same order of these posts! Seems history is repeating itself!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/card-and-archetype-discussion/561834-jace-beleren?comment=14
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At any rate, there is absolutely no way Beleren is close to Timetwister, not even if you play the Hacker. In particular they aren't even really comparable cards at all.
Re:Dig through Time--this card seems acceptable at 3UU, as there are plenty of mid-to-late game turns where you're still playing draw-go and the graveyard may not be that full/2UU-or-less full. I like it more than Timetwister in any non-storm cube as I find Timetwister to come up lacking too often; at least DTT (damn, so close to DDT...) is asymmetrical.
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I'm excited for the extremely powerful tutor effect as I'm actively supporting combo decks.
I'd rather have my opponent cast almost any other spell other than Dig. It's just too scary.
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Really excited to cube with it though.
Guys, this spell is guuuuuud.
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And yeah, I could see taking this over FoF
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My cube has a few more cantrips and fetch lands to feul it than most cubes tho.
It's not as good as a cube card because it goes in far less decks than FoF. But in the decks that cast it and cantrip, it's as good if not better than FoF imo.
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It's more powerful (powerful =/= better) than Fact or Fiction. It's also more expensive. Of course that's to be expected because if the cards cost the same amount, Dig would be almost strictly better. More powerful means higher converted mana cost.
I don't want to be casting Fact or Fiction on turn 3-4. I would rather be playing creatures, removal spells, counterspells, etc.
The (usually) lower cost is certainly better than Dig. However, most of the time when I'm casting Fact, I can also cast Dig, and Dig is just better in those scenarios. It's also far better if you're playing with any type of combos, which increase its pick value.
I'm not saying Dig is better than Fact. I'm just saying for my personal cube drafting style, and in my particular cube, I actually prefer to take Dig over FoF most of the time.
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