I like this guy quite a bit, but really have no idea what to cut to make room for him. We just included Grim Haruspex with the Khans update, so I guess that's my likely candidate for a cut. I hate cutting new cards so quickly, though.
I do not like this guy as much as most of the people on this thread.
Dash cost is high, he has to attack to get the benefit, a 3/2 for 2B is fine but not exciting.
He's okay, I think I might like him a little more than Fleshbag Marauder. I don't think I like him as much as any of the really great consistent three drops we've had access to for some time now.
I also don't think I like him as much as Grim Haruspex.
I do not like this guy as much as most of the people on this thread.
Dash cost is high, he has to attack to get the benefit, a 3/2 for 2B is fine but not exciting.
He's okay, I think I might like him a little more than Fleshbag Marauder. I don't think I like him as much as any of the really great consistent three drops we've had access to for some time now.
I also don't think I like him as much as Grim Haruspex.
I don't know. He's in that Tier 2ish area.
This is how I feel. Probably good enough depending on the size of your cube, but is the furthest down the list because of competition and issues with his butt. fwiw I like him more than Haruspex, and with Purphoros+dash ability you can really crush. Keeping a board clean isn't the biggest issue for black decks, but it seems to be real awkward when you can't attack.
I do not like this guy as much as most of the people on this thread.
Dash cost is high, he has to attack to get the benefit, a 3/2 for 2B is fine but not exciting.
He's okay, I think I might like him a little more than Fleshbag Marauder. I don't think I like him as much as any of the really great consistent three drops we've had access to for some time now.
I also don't think I like him as much as Grim Haruspex.
I don't know. He's in that Tier 2ish area.
I'm in the same boat. If the dash cost were less, I'd be figuring out how to make room for this guy. As is, he's not bad, but I don't know that he's good enough to make the cut at 3 in Black, which is already competitive.
I see this card as a 3.5cc drop. It's on the fence as a true 3 drop (it's natural cost) because it can be very advantageous to play it for 4 mana, avoiding cube sorceries like sweepers. All of this has been addressed. I think the card is ultimately a thematic flex. Mardu adds to the mass of powerful "tokens/sacrifice matters" in black Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, Smallpox, Mardu Strike Leader, Ophiomancer, Pox, Liliana of the Veil, Braids, Cabal Minion, Smokestack, etc (I'm sure I'm forgetting several others).
The aforementioned cards work best as a package deal. There will probably be a bias against Mardu if you're evaluating it in isolation. I think you need to pick what you want black as a cube-color to do first. Mardu either plays to that role or it slips to a tier 1.5/2. If you're looking for just "black goodstuff at 3cc" I am not sure he makes the cut. It's a damn good card though.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think you should test it and see for yourself. Dash is a really underrated ability on these boards, and there are a bunch of situations where it's really valuable. And you're 1 removal spell (or open attack) away from creating 7 power from your 3-drop. It has a high ceiling, multiple casting options and even its WCS tends to trade with a bear and leave you a 2-power creature. It hasn't seen a lot of time on the table here, but it's been impressive so far when it has resolved. And Dash is really good; especially on a creature that generates a full card's worth of value with its attack trigger. I'm testing it out at 450 and enjoying it so far.
I feel the value of black three drops depends a lot on the general layout of the black section. I'd consider cutting Vampire Nighthawk actually. It is not a bad card by any means, but what deck really wants to play it? It is not particularly aggressive and it is not particularly resilient either, so aggro and control probably say no thank you.
Hypnotic Specter rips hands apart since the days of Alpha, and that is still good today as it turns out. I would not cut it and keep Nighthawk in, although its value may vary depending on the amount of removal.
I also like Herald of Torment better by a wide margin, but I happily cut Vampire Nighthawk. Mardu Strike Leader will give you a decent ACS of trading with something and leaving a 2/1, but it's just outside my 3 drops. Black's 3 drops are of a very high calibre.
Alright, we have to start by establishing what the worst case scenario actually is for this card.
(Courser of Kruphix, Blade Splicer, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Serendib Efreet, Ophiomancer, Courser of Kruphix, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. These are common 3 drops in cube that Mardu Strike Leader will run up against, not to mention a handful of one/two drops that handle this guy easily...(Student of Warfare, Thalia, Vampire Hexmage, Ash Zealot).
The worst case scenario is that this guy can't swing because he'll just die and all you'll have done is traded down for a 2/1 token. The lack of a combat ability like first strike or some form of evasion is a big problem for this guy.
The number of times this guy swings twice will be few without removal (and that's assuming your opponent doesn't have two or more 2 power guys) and then the relevant question becomes is the opportunity to get a 2/1 worth using my removal on an early blocker? Usually, it will be and then you'd be getting significant value from this guy, but lots of pieces have to fall into place.
Do you use this same information to show how bad Goblin Rabblemaster is? Because it has the same level of fragility, loses out to the same boards and also trades with a bear and leaves 2 power behind when you don't have removal.
Similarly, They both add lots of power to the board if they survive, have the main bodies attack as X/2s and leave 2 power behind after their first swing and represent a lot of power if left unchecked. The Strike Leader is arguably better if your opponent has a bear on the board because you'll at least trade with the bear and have a 2/1 down instead of trading and having a 1/1 down.
Rabblemaster does more damage on an open board, but Strike Leader leaves better bodies behind after a couple turns if he's answered, and also has a built-in way to circumvent his own fragility against sorcery-speed removal.
Dash is a great ability....when it's costed at or lower than the creature's actual cost.
Again, are you just guessing here or have you seen Dash in action? It's a valuable ability that has applications that are worth it costing more than its base cost.
Strike Leader has been the one card of this set that exceeded my initial expectations the most. He is crazy good in an attacking deck and is one of the best topdecks you could hope for late game in an agro deck if you are trying to get your opponent to 0. The dash ability increases his relevance in so many board states.
Actually it isnt usman, but if you are going to argue that is is perhaps an actual point and not just a three word statement presented as fact. This isnt how we operate in the cube forum. This is not the debate forum. Lets try to be civil.
Not to pull rank, but I've been here for years longer than you have and I'm quite familiar with the etiquette of this forum (also it's pretty awkward to say "this isn't how we operate in the cube forum" and "this isn't the debate forum" followed by saying to be civil, but I digress.)
If me saying "Actually, it is" isn't satisfactory, then I'll point out that the majority of people who've said that the card and other dash cards are weak are ones who haven't actually tested the cards. I've done so with Dash cards and found that the versatility of being able to use both modes is quite useful - flexible cards tend to generally get underrated until people try the cards out, whether at a prerelease or testing the cards out.
[edit because holy run on sentence, batman]
I'll throw in my two cents: Dash is an underrated ability because haste has traditionally been underrated and overcosted. And normally, Viashino Sandstalker isn't cubeable. But dashers come with spells attached, so dashing them "just to attack" is not a bad play because the effect is worth the cost.
It also plays havoc with combat math for your opponent. If dashing is unfavorable, you can advance your board position by playing something else. You control the timing, and it forces the opponent to try to play around hidden information. But by dashing (and this is the part that trips up a lot of players' evaluations, I think) you get the attack and the effect right now. I think that's huge. It leads me to think that Goblin Heelcutter might be a staple for pauper cubes and could even be ok in powered. Time will tell on that one
As for the Strike Leader, I really like the value, but that CC slot has some of the stiffest competition in cube.
Youve been here longer than me? Im not even going to dignify that with a response
I've been at MTGS since 2005 and a contributing member of the Cube forum (see attachment,) voting in the 2008 cube draft that me and Kenny Mayer did, I posted a lot more in the cube forum years ago in 2008-2010 but here are some posts from 2008 ifyou wantspecific ones; I wrote my first article on MTGS in February 2010, so unless you're posting under a new account, I'd say that's a pretty safe assumption that I've been here longer than you since your profile says that your account dates from 2011. (Also, I thought you wanted to keep this civil?)
I didagree that everone who says dash should be 1 less for this guy hasnt actually tested the card. That's kind of a large assumption to make. I havent, true, but I bet several others who have shared this opinion have.
Then provide evidence to the contrary, if that's the point that you want to debate. Also, why should the dash be 1 less? 1B for a 3 power attack that leaves behind a 2/1 would be absurd and other Dash cards like Kologhan and Mardu Scout don't follow the mold of that either. Are you arguing that the 2B mode should be the dash mode and that the CMC should be 3B?
Im not debating that youve been here longer. Just the idea that somehow that having been on here nine years gives you status somehow over someone who has been here for four years...if we were talking weeks or a few months versus years then maybe but playing the seniority card when both people are longtime posters is bad form. And really it doesnt matter we should always aim to explain our opinions and not just be flip. If you want evidence go ahead and ask the several other posters who claimed this guy doesnt do it for them....
No one was saying that he has status over you or anyone else. He is just saying that he is aware of the etiquette on this forum since he has been here so long. I see no evidence of him being uncivil. There is a heavy amount of snark in your comments that indicate a lack of civil discourse. If you were talking like that in person I don't imagine it would come across as civil. Your initial comment he was responding to:
"Dash isnt an ability you have to see in action to be able to evaluate it."
Has no actual data available that would allow it to be any more valuable than Usman's response to you. Its just your opinion with no facts backing it up.
If you have any evidence about what you want to talk about you should probably provide links to it. If you have seen these comments here, how hard is it to provide links to them?
Back on topic, how is dash not an ability you have to see in action to evaluate? I have no idea how any of them are going to play out without first testing them. Are the costs too much? Too little? How often did the haste matter? How often did dodging sorcery speed removal matter? It is a tricky mechanic that will play out differently in countless different situations that could come up in your average cube draft.
Ill chime in that I think Dash is underrated on this board. Haste is a powerful ability, it adds a lot of flexibility to the cards. Also just casting this guy for 3 isnt the worst, hes certainly much better than Penumbra Bobcat. Huge difference between a 2/1 and a 3/2 for the same cost. Also against control decks, being able to dodge their sorcery speed removal can win games.
One of the great things about this card is the versatility. You can cast him on three or four depending on the rest of your curve. I think he's worth testing at any size assuming you're supporting black aggro.
Yes, you did, you're only backpedaling now that I've given evidence to the contrary.
Youve been here longer than me? Im not even going to dignify that with a response
If that was the case, then why would you say that in the first place? You're only changing your tune now as I called out the fact that your claim that you were on the boards for longer than I have was bunk (which could have been seen from just looking at the date under my avatar, but I digress.)
we should always aim to explain our opinions and not just be flip.
Which is what you haven't done.
If you want evidence go ahead and ask the several other posters who claimed this guy doesnt do it for them....also we have been suggesting the dash mode should be equal to the creature cost in order for this to be cube viable for 450 or less.
None of them stated that they actually tested the card, neither have you.
There've been people who said that they had low expectations of the card and after testing it, found it to be good.
Also, 2B for 3 attacking power that leaves a 2/1 behind would be absurd, not just cube viable.
I think this guy is a little better than I originally ranked him for guesswork, but I still don't know if I like him better than any of the top 5 in black.
2B for his dash cost would put him a lot closer to Rabblemaster's power level. That would have made him jump a ton of spots.
So no mention of the backpedal? Ok.
If there was a tagging system, I'd so so, but I can't but as of present, no one who has said that the card is bad has tested it, else they'd have said so.
(and with that, I'm no longer wasting time with you.)
Have any people testing this card had lackluster results? (relatedly, have any Dash cards been working out better/worse than expected? I remember kingneb saying he had positive feedback RE: Goblin Heelcutter.)
RE: his power level, I'm still kind of unsure on it as it's certainly not Ophio/Flesh Carver, but I think it's in the tier under it (although I like Geralf's Messenger and Herald of Torment more than most on there and Bone Shredder less than most people here, FWIW.)
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Dash cost is high, he has to attack to get the benefit, a 3/2 for 2B is fine but not exciting.
He's okay, I think I might like him a little more than Fleshbag Marauder. I don't think I like him as much as any of the really great consistent three drops we've had access to for some time now.
I also don't think I like him as much as Grim Haruspex.
I don't know. He's in that Tier 2ish area.
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This is how I feel. Probably good enough depending on the size of your cube, but is the furthest down the list because of competition and issues with his butt. fwiw I like him more than Haruspex, and with Purphoros+dash ability you can really crush. Keeping a board clean isn't the biggest issue for black decks, but it seems to be real awkward when you can't attack.
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I wish his dash costed one less mana.
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I'm in the same boat. If the dash cost were less, I'd be figuring out how to make room for this guy. As is, he's not bad, but I don't know that he's good enough to make the cut at 3 in Black, which is already competitive.
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The aforementioned cards work best as a package deal. There will probably be a bias against Mardu if you're evaluating it in isolation. I think you need to pick what you want black as a cube-color to do first. Mardu either plays to that role or it slips to a tier 1.5/2. If you're looking for just "black goodstuff at 3cc" I am not sure he makes the cut. It's a damn good card though.
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Hypnotic Specter rips hands apart since the days of Alpha, and that is still good today as it turns out. I would not cut it and keep Nighthawk in, although its value may vary depending on the amount of removal.
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Do you use this same information to show how bad Goblin Rabblemaster is? Because it has the same level of fragility, loses out to the same boards and also trades with a bear and leaves 2 power behind when you don't have removal.
Similarly, They both add lots of power to the board if they survive, have the main bodies attack as X/2s and leave 2 power behind after their first swing and represent a lot of power if left unchecked. The Strike Leader is arguably better if your opponent has a bear on the board because you'll at least trade with the bear and have a 2/1 down instead of trading and having a 1/1 down.
Rabblemaster does more damage on an open board, but Strike Leader leaves better bodies behind after a couple turns if he's answered, and also has a built-in way to circumvent his own fragility against sorcery-speed removal.
Again, are you just guessing here or have you seen Dash in action? It's a valuable ability that has applications that are worth it costing more than its base cost.
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Actually, it is.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Not to pull rank, but I've been here for years longer than you have and I'm quite familiar with the etiquette of this forum (also it's pretty awkward to say "this isn't how we operate in the cube forum" and "this isn't the debate forum" followed by saying to be civil, but I digress.)
If me saying "Actually, it is" isn't satisfactory, then I'll point out that the majority of people who've said that the card and other dash cards are weak are ones who haven't actually tested the cards. I've done so with Dash cards and found that the versatility of being able to use both modes is quite useful - flexible cards tend to generally get underrated until people try the cards out, whether at a prerelease or testing the cards out.
[edit because holy run on sentence, batman]
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
It also plays havoc with combat math for your opponent. If dashing is unfavorable, you can advance your board position by playing something else. You control the timing, and it forces the opponent to try to play around hidden information. But by dashing (and this is the part that trips up a lot of players' evaluations, I think) you get the attack and the effect right now. I think that's huge. It leads me to think that Goblin Heelcutter might be a staple for pauper cubes and could even be ok in powered. Time will tell on that one
As for the Strike Leader, I really like the value, but that CC slot has some of the stiffest competition in cube.
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I've been at MTGS since 2005 and a contributing member of the Cube forum (see attachment,) voting in the 2008 cube draft that me and Kenny Mayer did, I posted a lot more in the cube forum years ago in 2008-2010 but here are some posts from 2008 if you want specific ones; I wrote my first article on MTGS in February 2010, so unless you're posting under a new account, I'd say that's a pretty safe assumption that I've been here longer than you since your profile says that your account dates from 2011. (Also, I thought you wanted to keep this civil?)
Then provide evidence to the contrary, if that's the point that you want to debate. Also, why should the dash be 1 less? 1B for a 3 power attack that leaves behind a 2/1 would be absurd and other Dash cards like Kologhan and Mardu Scout don't follow the mold of that either. Are you arguing that the 2B mode should be the dash mode and that the CMC should be 3B?
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
No one was saying that he has status over you or anyone else. He is just saying that he is aware of the etiquette on this forum since he has been here so long. I see no evidence of him being uncivil. There is a heavy amount of snark in your comments that indicate a lack of civil discourse. If you were talking like that in person I don't imagine it would come across as civil. Your initial comment he was responding to:
"Dash isnt an ability you have to see in action to be able to evaluate it."
Has no actual data available that would allow it to be any more valuable than Usman's response to you. Its just your opinion with no facts backing it up.
If you have any evidence about what you want to talk about you should probably provide links to it. If you have seen these comments here, how hard is it to provide links to them?
Back on topic, how is dash not an ability you have to see in action to evaluate? I have no idea how any of them are going to play out without first testing them. Are the costs too much? Too little? How often did the haste matter? How often did dodging sorcery speed removal matter? It is a tricky mechanic that will play out differently in countless different situations that could come up in your average cube draft.
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Yes, you did, you're only backpedaling now that I've given evidence to the contrary.
If that was the case, then why would you say that in the first place? You're only changing your tune now as I called out the fact that your claim that you were on the boards for longer than I have was bunk (which could have been seen from just looking at the date under my avatar, but I digress.)
Which is what you haven't done.
None of them stated that they actually tested the card, neither have you.
There've been people who said that they had low expectations of the card and after testing it, found it to be good.
Also, 2B for 3 attacking power that leaves a 2/1 behind would be absurd, not just cube viable.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
2B for his dash cost would put him a lot closer to Rabblemaster's power level. That would have made him jump a ton of spots.
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If there was a tagging system, I'd so so, but I can't but as of present, no one who has said that the card is bad has tested it, else they'd have said so.
(and with that, I'm no longer wasting time with you.)
Have any people testing this card had lackluster results? (relatedly, have any Dash cards been working out better/worse than expected? I remember kingneb saying he had positive feedback RE: Goblin Heelcutter.)
RE: his power level, I'm still kind of unsure on it as it's certainly not Ophio/Flesh Carver, but I think it's in the tier under it (although I like Geralf's Messenger and Herald of Torment more than most on there and Bone Shredder less than most people here, FWIW.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)