Lands Matter is often a green deck with some number of big creatures to copy with Image. Lands matter is more a sub-theme / sub-archetype where Worm Harvest is only really playable in a very synergistic deck.
That was why I was considering the copy effect over Harvest.
On the other side of the coin, mono blue clone effects will probably be much better than Spitting Image in most scenarios. Having a hybrid mana cost and Retrace is not worth 6 mana. Clones are best when you get a spicy target at a discount.
Lands Matter is often a green deck with some number of big creatures to copy with Image. Lands matter is more a sub-theme / sub-archetype where Worm Harvest is only really playable in a very synergistic deck.
That was why I was considering the copy effect over Harvest.
Depends on your cube and draft style, if you have a bunch of fetches and some discard outlets (not too hard in G/B) it isn't very hard to get 4 or 5 lands into the yard. At that point it seems like a decent deal as you can grind out the games with boat load of worms each turn.
Spitting image just feels expensive considering Progenitor Mimic does a similar effect with out paying 6 every turn (although you are locked into target). On an empty board or post wrath spitting image is also a lot worse.
Assuming I get to cast either spell 3 times in a game I would say Worm Harvest is more likely to win the game. I don't run either, but if I was trying lands matter it would try Worm Harvest for sure.
Spitting Image was a solid Simic option about ten years ago. There's been a lot of better cards printed since then, so I wouldn't waste the valuable multicolor slot on it. Retrace on a clone effect is nice, but six mana for it is just a bit above what I want to pay for that effect, especially in cube.
I've found lands matter in general to still be a little too hard to put together even with the added support. It's not yet been a archetype I've been able to draft, but more of a spicy combo in a GX (usually Black) midrange shell.
I will note, however, that we added in The Gitrog Monster to help support this as a draftable archetype and he's been really good.
This has been my general experience, that it's usually a side-option for a deck trying to do something else. It's kind of like the recent legacy Reanimentor deck or the modern Living End deck that also had the kiki package, in that there's a main plan and then randomly you'll walk into the other combo.
Yep. Basically the deck is all in on Crucible of Worlds and falls apart without it. Occasionally you'll combo a Titania with a Geddon or a Gitrog or Reliquery and that feels pretty good, but that's not really a deck, just a fun interaction. In order for a Lands Matter deck to come together, the draft really has to lean heavy in your favor and basically feed that deck to you pick after pick. There's just not enough generically good cards that lend to the archetype the same way that there are for others. Comparing to something like Braids or Wildfire, there are definitely specific cards you want to pick up, but in general there are loads of "good stuff" cards that fit into those decks. Not every Braids deck will look the same. I'm not really sure what the Lands Matter deck needs to be viable in cube, but it's not there yet.
This deck came together on our latest cube session - and it pretty much went all in on the lands theme.
I think the archetype is deep enough to support with some crossover with ramp, stax and reanimate.
I will try to test Worm Harvest which would have been pretty good in this deck and help the crossover with stax.
I feel like lands matters really wants as many Regrowth effects as it can get. If you haven’t done so already, I’d try and max out with Regrowth / Eternal Witness / Den Protector / Greenwarden of Murasa.
Now that we have Wrenn and Six and Ramunap Excavator is this an archetype worth strongly supporting in cube? What else is required to make a solid draftable deck?
Now that we have Wrenn and Six and Ramunap Excavator is this an archetype worth strongly supporting in cube? What else is required to make a solid draftable deck?
I think this archetype is cool but has typically been a little durdly.
I actually think that the addition of the enemy color Horizon Canopy lands and Prismatic View is the biggest win for this archetype; should give it a shot in the arm and become more competative.
Wrenn and Six is much better than Ramunap Excavator, imho.
The printing of Wrenn and Six and a few other cards in this set has me hoping this becomes a viable testing option for cube again. I try not to get my hopes up, though. Lands matters, despite being a pet archetype of mine, seems to be very hard to support despite having several cards now that add to it. After Ramunap Excavator came out, I tried adding Titania and Gitrog in hopes that a lands matters them could work in Golgari, but that didn't really pan out. I may try again, depending on what else we see in the last half of this set.
The idea of lands matter is really cool and plenty of support cards for it exist now, but there's just not much in terms of payoff yet IMO outside of Strip Mine lock. The archetype is still waiting for something but I'm not sure what.
I don't play a "lands matter" archetype, because I don't think the payoffs justify their own inclusion ...yet.
But that doesn't stop cards like Loam, Crucible, Excavator (and potentially Wrenn and Six) from being great cube cards.
In the same way that Bloodghasts and sac outlets can be good without Blood Artists, sacrifice lands and Crucible effects can be good without Titanias.
Playing Loams/Crucibles and exploiting their recursive value ≠ a "lands matter" archetype. Just felt like that needed clarifying, since some folks in the cube community seem to be interchanging those terms.
If you are interested in the deck, I advise you to take a look at the unfair section of our cube, see the CubeTutor link below. We've a lot of marginal cards that you won't find in most list, like Crop Rotation, Knight of Reliquary, Tatyova, Azusa and Exploration. It may provide you some sweet ideas for the deck. Wrenn and Six is in fact more then welcome to the package. The deck is now more real than ever. We think everyone who runs a power cube should give a try.
Has anybody tried Zuran Orb since more support has come out? Is it still just not worth a slot? Maybe it's a bit parasitic, since it's only good if you are already abusing lands. There's still never been a better sacrifice outlet for lands though.
This question was asked 5-6 years ago and the answer was yes. But with Wreen and Six, Excavator, Augur of Autumn, I'm wondering if Exploration has slightly better support that it can make it into a cube without Titania or Gitrog.
The printing of Wrenn and Six and a few other cards in this set has me hoping this becomes a viable testing option for cube again. I try not to get my hopes up, though. Lands matters, despite being a pet archetype of mine, seems to be very hard to support despite having several cards now that add to it. After Ramunap Excavator came out, I tried adding Titania and Gitrog in hopes that a lands matters them could work in Golgari, but that didn't really pan out. I may try again, depending on what else we see in the last half of this set.
I don't think a full-blow lands matters deck with Fastbond, Strip Mine and Crucible of Worlds is the direction we need to go but just getting some incidental value out of a Green-Red deck with Wreen, Ramunap etc to hit their land drops for 7 drops and provide some value vs control sounds great to me.
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Yes, because Fastbond itself is still pretty narrow, and Fastbond is by far the best version of this effect. That being said, they have gotten less narrow over time with more ways to play cards out of the graveyard / from the top of library. Like spells matters, I've always viewed lands matters as more of a subtheme than a full blown archetype in my cube.
I just added several support cards for “Lands Matter.” Would you all play Sylvan Scrying in a deck like this? There is not a high number of targets, but it seems good in a deck with Depths Combo, Strip Mine, or Cradle.
I just added several support cards for “Lands Matter.” Would you all play Sylvan Scrying in a deck like this? There is not a high number of targets, but it seems good in a deck with Depths Combo, Strip Mine, or Cradle.
If you really need Depths support, yes, other wise I don't think it's worth it. Knight of the Reliquary is also something to consider if you're going the Dark Depths route.
Sylvan Scrying/ Crop Rotations are very similar to Trinket Mage in Cube and Praetor's Grasp/ Grim Tutor/ Gamble in EDH (fetches Sol Ring/ Mana Crypt) as they are weak cards, but the cards they fetch are incredibly strong.
However, I do feel we need another (or 2) Urza's Saga/ Shelldock Isle in order to hit the required density for these cards to shine.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I just added several support cards for “Lands Matter.” Would you all play Sylvan Scrying in a deck like this? There is not a high number of targets, but it seems good in a deck with Depths Combo, Strip Mine, or Cradle.
If you really need Depths support, yes, other wise I don't think it's worth it. Knight of the Reliquary is also something to consider if you're going the Dark Depths route.
Elvish Reclaimer is also a decent support card for this kind of package.
It could potentially do some heavy lifting in a Crucible / Excavator / Titania shell.
I am considering to try it over a generic green 5-6 drop like Kalonian Hydra.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
That was why I was considering the copy effect over Harvest.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Depends on your cube and draft style, if you have a bunch of fetches and some discard outlets (not too hard in G/B) it isn't very hard to get 4 or 5 lands into the yard. At that point it seems like a decent deal as you can grind out the games with boat load of worms each turn.
Spitting image just feels expensive considering Progenitor Mimic does a similar effect with out paying 6 every turn (although you are locked into target). On an empty board or post wrath spitting image is also a lot worse.
Assuming I get to cast either spell 3 times in a game I would say Worm Harvest is more likely to win the game. I don't run either, but if I was trying lands matter it would try Worm Harvest for sure.
I've found lands matter in general to still be a little too hard to put together even with the added support. It's not yet been a archetype I've been able to draft, but more of a spicy combo in a GX (usually Black) midrange shell.
I will note, however, that we added in The Gitrog Monster to help support this as a draftable archetype and he's been really good.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I think the archetype is deep enough to support with some crossover with ramp, stax and reanimate.
I will try to test Worm Harvest which would have been pretty good in this deck and help the crossover with stax.
6 Forest
1 Wastes
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Treetop Village
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 City of Brass
1 Vinelasher Kudzu
1 Mox Diamond
1 Wall of Roots
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Taiga
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I think this archetype is cool but has typically been a little durdly.
I actually think that the addition of the enemy color Horizon Canopy lands and Prismatic View is the biggest win for this archetype; should give it a shot in the arm and become more competative.
Wrenn and Six is much better than Ramunap Excavator, imho.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
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2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Loam (Lands in Graveyard Matters):
General Lands Matter:
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My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
But that doesn't stop cards like Loam, Crucible, Excavator (and potentially Wrenn and Six) from being great cube cards.
In the same way that Bloodghasts and sac outlets can be good without Blood Artists, sacrifice lands and Crucible effects can be good without Titanias.
Playing Loams/Crucibles and exploiting their recursive value ≠ a "lands matter" archetype. Just felt like that needed clarifying, since some folks in the cube community seem to be interchanging those terms.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
This question was asked 5-6 years ago and the answer was yes. But with Wreen and Six, Excavator, Augur of Autumn, I'm wondering if Exploration has slightly better support that it can make it into a cube without Titania or Gitrog.
I don't think a full-blow lands matters deck with Fastbond, Strip Mine and Crucible of Worlds is the direction we need to go but just getting some incidental value out of a Green-Red deck with Wreen, Ramunap etc to hit their land drops for 7 drops and provide some value vs control sounds great to me.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Yes, because Fastbond itself is still pretty narrow, and Fastbond is by far the best version of this effect. That being said, they have gotten less narrow over time with more ways to play cards out of the graveyard / from the top of library. Like spells matters, I've always viewed lands matters as more of a subtheme than a full blown archetype in my cube.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
If you really need Depths support, yes, other wise I don't think it's worth it. Knight of the Reliquary is also something to consider if you're going the Dark Depths route.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
However, I do feel we need another (or 2) Urza's Saga/ Shelldock Isle in order to hit the required density for these cards to shine.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Elvish Reclaimer is also a decent support card for this kind of package.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!