So as far as I see it, if you're running Polukranos, World Eater or Deadbridge Goliath, you have a relatively easy swap here. I think this guy probably out-powers Vengivine. In the decks and games where I want him to have haste, he'll almost always have haste (post-wrath is pretty much the only time otherwise), and then he mostly acts as a Hammer of Purpheros from then on. Great card that I'll be looking to make room for.
Polukranos has really under-perfomed for me. Its almost always a vanilla 5/5 that dies in response to monsterous or cannot kill what it needs to. I think I will try this in its place. I actually like Vengevine more.
I don't think this card is very good. The ability is conditional, especially with all the low power ramp enablers that will be used to get him out. I think green's other 4-drops are just better. It's comparable to Vengevine, but that card always has haste and can return itself to the battlefield for some card advantage if it's killed by removal. It's a safe card for me to pass on, and I don't think I'd include it even if my cube was pretty big.
Yes, we play green aggro, but this doesn't excite me there. In an aggro deck, my creature count is high enough to get recursive value from Vengevine, so I like it way more than the +1/+1 that this guy has. In non-aggro decks, there's no way to guarantee this thing will have haste itself considering how little power ramp creatures have, so I'd be looking at it as an investment into future threats. If I'm playing the card with the assumption I'm going to untap and get another turn with it, I'd much rather have Polukranos, who can wreck my opponent's board and get really big. So there's no deck I'd rather play this card in over other available creatures ...and those other available creatures aren't even in the cube anymore. So... I have absolutely zero interest in this creature.
I think it's worth noting that a mana elf plus pretty much any 2 or 3 drop in cube is gonna mean bashing for 5 with this guy on turn 3, which is a pretty great good case scenario, especially if followed up by a strong 4 or 5 that benefits from the haste. I think he's a good candidate for testing at anything north of 400.
Vengevine isn't high on my list in Green, and that has the added value of being good against control because you can save up some mana dorks to make it good. Playing this after wraths and such don't seem that good either. I'm afraid this'll be a mediocre 5/4 a lot of the time.
I played with Vengevine for a couple years and was only able to recur it once. It felt like the stars had to align to get Vengevine to go off. He needs to be in the yard, AND I have to have 2 cheap creatures in hand which never happened in my aggro decks (except the one time, haha). I think the extra P/T is huge on this card (out of bolt range), and the Formidable ability, while not as strong as Vengevine's, will trigger waaaaaay more often. There will also be situations where I topdeck a random Tarmogoyf, or Borderland Marauder, or Flickerwisp on turn six and am able to get hasty damage out of it. Would I rather play Surrak than Vengevine in pretty much every aggro deck I build, not to mention the midrange and ramp decks.
Also, in ramp decks where I have an elf or two out and can't trigger formidable, I probably won't be too upset. Dropping 5 power dude on turn 3 that sets up a hasty titan or Atarka in the near future won't be a feel bad moment IMO.
It's kinda funny how much of a 180 I've done with this card, ha.
Also, in ramp decks where I have an elf or two out and can't trigger formidable, I probably won't be too upset. Dropping 5 power dude on turn 3 that sets up a hasty titan or Atarka in the near future won't be a feel bad moment IMO.
But again, if it's being included so you can haste future threats, I'd rather sink the mana into a Polukranos activation and bust my opponent's board apart.
This guy looks like a mediocre green Ogre Battledriver to me. It's better with singular threats, but worse with army-in-a-can curve toppers.
I played with Vengevine for a couple years and was only able to recur it once. It felt like the stars had to align to get Vengevine to go off. He needs to be in the yard, AND I have to have 2 cheap creatures in hand which never happened in my aggro decks (except the one time, haha). I think the extra P/T is huge on this card (out of bolt range), and the Formidable ability, while not as strong as Vengevine's, will trigger waaaaaay more often. There will also be situations where I topdeck a random Tarmogoyf, or Borderland Marauder, or Flickerwisp on turn six and am able to get hasty damage out of it. Would I rather play Surrak than Vengevine in pretty much every aggro deck I build, not to mention the midrange and ramp decks.
That sums up both my experience with Vengevine and my expectations for Surrak nicely.
I don't think that Surrak is amazing, but he seems to be a good upgrade to Vengevine.
Vengevine returned itself to the board with regularity in the right deck if you sandbagged threats accordingly, and played very well for us. And I still cut it. I would definitely play Vengevine over this guy in creature-heavy aggro decks. Midrange decks Surrak has more value, but again, midrange decks have better creatures to play than this guy. And Ramp definitely does. I just see this card being my 24th best card more often than not.
But for Vengevine or Chameleon Colossus, that I personnaly run, maybe it could.
I like the combo aspect of Vengevine, while you could throw it into Survival of the Fittest and still manage it back to the battlefield. But in counterpart, Vengevine doesn't give all your other creatures haste. In fact, they both brings very different upside that can argue for there presence in the cube, but personnaly, I think I'm going to keep Vengevine over Surrak.
About Chameleon Colossus, while being a marginal card, it has been great for our playground so far. Very solid by his own threat with some kind of evasion. Very nice way to spend a lot of mana with Rofellos, Cradle or Heartbeat for example. Alos, being a Changeling is quite nice sometimes. Could be a Human, a Zombie, a Goblin or whatever you need. It could be also bad to act like a Dragon or Demon when your facing Baneslayer Angel. Maybe Surrak could replace it, but I'm not sure because evasion is nice.
Midrange decks Surrak has more value, but again, midrange decks have better creatures to play than this guy. And Ramp definitely does. I just see this card being my 24th best card more often than not.
This argument makes more sense for you than it does for me, as you are not running Polukranos and I am. I want four great 4-drops in my green section and right now I have three that I'm happy with. I also don't run super ramp, so I'm not running Oracle of Mul Daya either. Also, as Star Slayer said in the Atarka thread, simply having a better creature in cube doesn't make other options obsolete. I wont cut Man o War just because I have Vendilion Clique available. Drafts don't always work out perfectly and it's good to have multiple options.
Too busy to go indepth but I think this guy is not cub able. (Barely)
People are overestimating how often he triggers imo. Big vanilla bodies get stonewalled way too often in cube..
Edit: Eh, coming around to him a bit. Not sure if I'll test him (it's clear in my mind he's no polukranos or master of the wild hunt), but might be equivalent to some of the lower tiered 4 drops. The ability I'm having trouble evaluating is giving other creatures haste and how good that will end up being.
I wont cut Man o War just because I have Vendilion Clique available.
I can't re-cut green 4-drops that I think are better than this guy that I've already cut from the cube. I'm not comparing this guy to stone cold staples. I'm comparing it to fringe playables that have been cut from a lot of cubes. I'm just not down with the 4cc beefcake that sometimes has haste and sometimes grants haste if it sticks around. The ceiling is high on this thing, but the floor on it makes me long for a Deadbridge Goliath ...and that's not a floor I'm willing to deal with. There's value with being an okay card for several different decks, but I'm afraid that the competition consists of cards that are better in specific decks, which will relegate this guy to being cuttable in most cases. He'll suffer from being the 24th best card far too often because of that, IMO.
This guy looks pretty serious... I can see him being a real threat in pretty much all our green aggro and midrange decks. Looks pretty legit to me so I'll be trying to run him.
Anyone running a Fires theme should seriously consider this one. Historically, Fires effects have been difficult to include because they didn't have legs. This is a Fires on legs. And while it is on the lower side of power, I could see a cube that runs this alongside Ogre Battledriver to good effect.
The fact that Ogre Battledriver's haste applies to every creature (instead Surrak, the Hunt Caller selecting 1 creature) is awesome, so when I curve from him into something like a Siege-Gang, Hornet Queen or Hermit, the whole team gains haste (and the whole team gets +2/+0 each!) instead of just one body (which can miss too, particularly post-Wrath if the new creature has a 2-power body). The lack his own power is made up for with the power it grants to other threats. The biggest upside is that Battledriver's really good in certain decks, so when they come together, he straight makes the final 40. This guy is just solid in several different decks, so it's much easier to exclude it from any of them.
I don't think this card is terrible, but I don't think it's great either. I think it has potential to be good in the right circumstances, but it also has a good chance of being a lackluster 4-drop. I don't really want those kinds of swings from a 4-mana investment.
Ya, but I don't have a Vengevine slot to give up for him (not that I would even if it was still in, but, ya). I already cut those cards from the cube, so he'll stay out too.
I still run vengevine, and I think I prefer it over surrak. I can imagine where haste is sorely needed, as in any planeswalker is on the other side of the board, and surrak doesn't have any friends to give him haste.
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The only four drops I wouldn't move to test this guy are Polukranos, World Eater, Thrun, the Last Troll, and Master of the Wild Hunt.
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Also, in ramp decks where I have an elf or two out and can't trigger formidable, I probably won't be too upset. Dropping 5 power dude on turn 3 that sets up a hasty titan or Atarka in the near future won't be a feel bad moment IMO.
It's kinda funny how much of a 180 I've done with this card, ha.
But again, if it's being included so you can haste future threats, I'd rather sink the mana into a Polukranos activation and bust my opponent's board apart.
This guy looks like a mediocre green Ogre Battledriver to me. It's better with singular threats, but worse with army-in-a-can curve toppers.
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I don't think that Surrak is amazing, but he seems to be a good upgrade to Vengevine.
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But for Vengevine or Chameleon Colossus, that I personnaly run, maybe it could.
I like the combo aspect of Vengevine, while you could throw it into Survival of the Fittest and still manage it back to the battlefield. But in counterpart, Vengevine doesn't give all your other creatures haste. In fact, they both brings very different upside that can argue for there presence in the cube, but personnaly, I think I'm going to keep Vengevine over Surrak.
About Chameleon Colossus, while being a marginal card, it has been great for our playground so far. Very solid by his own threat with some kind of evasion. Very nice way to spend a lot of mana with Rofellos, Cradle or Heartbeat for example. Alos, being a Changeling is quite nice sometimes. Could be a Human, a Zombie, a Goblin or whatever you need. It could be also bad to act like a Dragon or Demon when your facing Baneslayer Angel. Maybe Surrak could replace it, but I'm not sure because evasion is nice.
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This argument makes more sense for you than it does for me, as you are not running Polukranos and I am. I want four great 4-drops in my green section and right now I have three that I'm happy with. I also don't run super ramp, so I'm not running Oracle of Mul Daya either. Also, as Star Slayer said in the Atarka thread, simply having a better creature in cube doesn't make other options obsolete. I wont cut Man o War just because I have Vendilion Clique available. Drafts don't always work out perfectly and it's good to have multiple options.
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EDIT: I should say that I've been perfectly happy with Wickerbough Elder, but he is leaving my cube in favor of Nantuko Vigilante.
People are overestimating how often he triggers imo. Big vanilla bodies get stonewalled way too often in cube..
Edit: Eh, coming around to him a bit. Not sure if I'll test him (it's clear in my mind he's no polukranos or master of the wild hunt), but might be equivalent to some of the lower tiered 4 drops. The ability I'm having trouble evaluating is giving other creatures haste and how good that will end up being.
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I can't re-cut green 4-drops that I think are better than this guy that I've already cut from the cube. I'm not comparing this guy to stone cold staples. I'm comparing it to fringe playables that have been cut from a lot of cubes. I'm just not down with the 4cc beefcake that sometimes has haste and sometimes grants haste if it sticks around. The ceiling is high on this thing, but the floor on it makes me long for a Deadbridge Goliath ...and that's not a floor I'm willing to deal with. There's value with being an okay card for several different decks, but I'm afraid that the competition consists of cards that are better in specific decks, which will relegate this guy to being cuttable in most cases. He'll suffer from being the 24th best card far too often because of that, IMO.
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I don't think this card is terrible, but I don't think it's great either. I think it has potential to be good in the right circumstances, but it also has a good chance of being a lackluster 4-drop. I don't really want those kinds of swings from a 4-mana investment.
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