Saying things like: "Give people who are in favor of this card the credit they deserve and don't oversimplify the counterpoint." Is implying that a) I'm talking about Surrak's overall evaluation, b) that I don't understand that there are other aspects of the card to consider, and c) that my counterpoint was addressing something more than just the body/cost ratio. When none of those things are true. Apparently blatantly stating (twice) that the comment you responded to was only in reference to the 5/4 body for 2GG not being a selling point in today's era ...wasn't enough. Again, that's all it was.
A) You were. You literally took one of the weakest arguments for this card's inclusion (despite there being many) and honed in on that single argument in making your case against its inclusion overall.
In this instance, yes. Because all I was doing was talking about the body. Arguing not against Surrak, but pointing out that 5-power for 2GG even without drawbacks isn't what it used to be.
So... anyone have any testing results on this guy to share yet?
Yes, this guy is going to be a staple. Has been absolutely insane so far.
J/K... haven't had a chance to cube since I sleeved up a proxy. I'm not super optimistic, but it only costs like $0.15 to print out a color proxy so no harm done if he sucks. I'm going to get a cube session in this weekend and may try and force green to test him out. I'll keep y'all posted.
I have high hopes for Surrak. He's exactly what I think is needed to really help push the Gruul "Fires" archtype (something I've been trying to make happen but it always seems to be a piece short).
No test data yet, so it's all just theory right now though. Could end up being a bust.
This card really emphasizes the dividing line for cubers. It is fairly well accepted that 1-3 drop creatures that are are simply threatening and force and answer are ok, or ones that give value but leave a non-threat are ok. But 4-6 drops are really expected to be both, force removal, and give you some value.
This guy was a house at the prerelease. So much so I have tucked a copy in my on deck box. The cube question is value. If the G/X decks are going to be dropping this thing and it gets immediate haste most of the time, it will be worth it in cube. But if you are counting on having it stick around for a perfect 5 drop.... I don't think that is enough. I have tried the fires concept a lot and expensive haste granters were never worth it. A 5/4 beater with haste, that maybe granted haste to others would be.
This guy played pretty well in a few drafts last night. The highlight was when a guy only had Surrak out versus 1 defender, started his turn and played two 2/1 creatures to activate the ability, give one guy haste & swing for exactly lethal. That was pretty neat to see.
I run a 540 Powered Cube & I think the jury is still out on this card. My prerelease rankings put him around #3 from this set & that may have been optimistic but the potential is definitely there. This card has one of the highest ceilings from the set & I'll be curious to see how it plays out. My opinion is to definitely test it at 540+ and maybe at 450.
So I was one of the skeptics of this card, but after a few drafts, I'm 100% sold. It's one of the only green creatures that can make an opponent really feel they're completely losing control of a game, and even without haste it's just as threatening as a Polukranos, if not more so. In fact, I don't think Polukranos holds a candle to this.
So I was one of the skeptics of this card, but after a few drafts, I'm 100% sold. It's one of the only green creatures that can make an opponent really feel they're completely losing control of a game, and even without haste it's just as threatening as a Polukranos, if not more so. In fact, I don't think Polukranos holds a candle to this.
Yeah dude, this card is ******* dope. It's not good with the army-in-a-can guys, but as someone who runs Vorapede/Wolfir Silverheart/Thragtusk, Surrak is a killer. I like it because it enables my other sweet big guys, something that is pretty unique, and lets me plan synergistic plays that don't render my other guys useless if Surrak gets answered.
Apart from having a pretty awesome spoonerism for a name, this guy fills a slot in Green that was lacking as my 4's didn't really attack well. This guy will be hanging around for a while.
I can report similar things. He has been performing really well and puts the pressure on in a big way. I was high on him initially, but my view slid downwards with a lot of the negative talk about Surrak here on the boards. Seeing him in action has definitely boosted my view back up.
After positive reports, gonna test him now when I can assemble a playgroup in Toronto.
Think I indeed (as I speculated) underestimated the value of being a fires of yavimaya for other creatures. Will tinker my green 5 drop section a bit to maximize his potential to give him a fair shot.
Nice! I've been thinking about moving up to 540 as well but a couple things hold me back:
1) We usually play 1v1 and I am worried that archetypes would be too hard to build, even with glimpse drafting.
2) I would want a few more good red agro critters before increasing my cube size. I feel like we are still short at 450.
That said, I'd be interested to see what a 540 wtwlf list looks like.
Too much positive review to ignore. If I end up experimenting with a 540 size list, I will test this out over Vengevine for a longer period.
I think he is good is medium to large lists. Hes always had haste when hes hit the table in my cube.
There are times where you are casting him t3 off an elf and he doesn't have haste, but it's typically shocking/really bad luck if the next creature doesn't speed up.
I certainly think this is a *lot* better than Vengevine. Coming back from the GY is nice, but enabling the other big guys you'll find go with Surrak has been much stronger. Also if you run Tooth and Nail then Surrak is a beast, as nothing feels worse/better than Tooth-n-Nailing a Surrak+Eldrazi/Griselbrand/etc. My favorite Tooth'n'Nail decks from the MODO cubes always had Zealous Conscripts+Eldrazi, and now you don't need to use red for that effect which is sweet.
The best thing about vengevine, and the thing keeping him in my cube at least, is post wrath tempo. Not having haste after a wrath is a huge deal for me, but if wraths, and controlly decks with planeswalkers aren't that popular I can see it being superior to vengevine.
Nice! I've been thinking about moving up to 540 as well but a couple things hold me back:
1) We usually play 1v1 and I am worried that archetypes would be too hard to build, even with glimpse drafting. 2) I would want a few more good red agro critters before increasing my cube size. I feel like we are still short at 450.
That said, I'd be interested to see what a 540 wtwlf list looks like.
If your most demanding draft actually improves by raising to 540 (because it allows you to Glimpse at 4, for example) your demand doesn't have to go up. It's explained in more detail in my cube thread.
FWIW, here's a 3-0 GW midrange deck from a LGS cube draft where someone had Surrak in and when I asked him how it performed (after I got crushed with it in the finals) - he said that it was very good and not difficult to give haste.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
In this instance, yes. Because all I was doing was talking about the body. Arguing not against Surrak, but pointing out that 5-power for 2GG even without drawbacks isn't what it used to be.
Not in this argument, no. Because there are no other aspects. All these comments were about was the body/cost.
Right. Since the discussion was only about the body/cost ratio, that was intentional.
Sure. Consider it hugged out.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yes, this guy is going to be a staple. Has been absolutely insane so far.
J/K... haven't had a chance to cube since I sleeved up a proxy. I'm not super optimistic, but it only costs like $0.15 to print out a color proxy so no harm done if he sucks. I'm going to get a cube session in this weekend and may try and force green to test him out. I'll keep y'all posted.
Not sure how relevant, but it's something.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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No test data yet, so it's all just theory right now though. Could end up being a bust.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
This guy was a house at the prerelease. So much so I have tucked a copy in my on deck box. The cube question is value. If the G/X decks are going to be dropping this thing and it gets immediate haste most of the time, it will be worth it in cube. But if you are counting on having it stick around for a perfect 5 drop.... I don't think that is enough. I have tried the fires concept a lot and expensive haste granters were never worth it. A 5/4 beater with haste, that maybe granted haste to others would be.
I run a 540 Powered Cube & I think the jury is still out on this card. My prerelease rankings put him around #3 from this set & that may have been optimistic but the potential is definitely there. This card has one of the highest ceilings from the set & I'll be curious to see how it plays out. My opinion is to definitely test it at 540+ and maybe at 450.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Cubetutor Link
Yeah dude, this card is ******* dope. It's not good with the army-in-a-can guys, but as someone who runs Vorapede/Wolfir Silverheart/Thragtusk, Surrak is a killer. I like it because it enables my other sweet big guys, something that is pretty unique, and lets me plan synergistic plays that don't render my other guys useless if Surrak gets answered.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Modern: Jund
Think I indeed (as I speculated) underestimated the value of being a fires of yavimaya for other creatures. Will tinker my green 5 drop section a bit to maximize his potential to give him a fair shot.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
1) We usually play 1v1 and I am worried that archetypes would be too hard to build, even with glimpse drafting.
2) I would want a few more good red agro critters before increasing my cube size. I feel like we are still short at 450.
That said, I'd be interested to see what a 540 wtwlf list looks like.
I think he is good is medium to large lists. Hes always had haste when hes hit the table in my cube.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
There are times where you are casting him t3 off an elf and he doesn't have haste, but it's typically shocking/really bad luck if the next creature doesn't speed up.
I certainly think this is a *lot* better than Vengevine. Coming back from the GY is nice, but enabling the other big guys you'll find go with Surrak has been much stronger. Also if you run Tooth and Nail then Surrak is a beast, as nothing feels worse/better than Tooth-n-Nailing a Surrak+Eldrazi/Griselbrand/etc. My favorite Tooth'n'Nail decks from the MODO cubes always had Zealous Conscripts+Eldrazi, and now you don't need to use red for that effect which is sweet.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
thats my cube
If your most demanding draft actually improves by raising to 540 (because it allows you to Glimpse at 4, for example) your demand doesn't have to go up. It's explained in more detail in my cube thread.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm testing at 375
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Surrak - Emrakul
Xenagod - Emrakul(if anyone is running the god but not missing much if you don't)
Kiki/Twin - Pestermite/Exarch
Possibly more...
But Surrak is generally good in 99% green decks.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG