AS much as I love the Kiln Fiend, I would never play those gold cards in a powered cube. For me it would have to be monastery mentor level to crack the gold section. Izzet Charm does a great job supporting the achetype and other decks, then there are the two excellent planeswalkers....
What are peoples opinion on mana cards. Obviously power (moxes lotues) are great and the usual accelerants(sol ring, crypt, grim). But what about pentad prism, sark ritual, manamorphose? I sometimes dabble in black for the tutors, will, removal, discard but there are no true spells matters cards there.
Pentad Prism and manamorphose felt too narrow when I tried themn for storm but maybe I give them another shot?
I'm testing Pentad Prism also for Storm purposes in the moment and I think it's not bad. But I'm not convinced that it will stay long-term for now. It just feels like a bad Lotus in a none-combo deck.
It's not Prowess that's good, it's the triggers you get from casting spells that make the cards worthwhile. The P/T boost is cute, but it's not the Prowess keyword that made the Prowess cards in the cube good.
Prowess contributes to the overall power level of the cards. A +1/+1 boost can make all the difference between winning or losing combat and at the very least, it is 1 more damage to the opponent. I am running three Prowess cards (Seeker of the Way, Monastery Mentor and Monastery Swiftspear) and I would run none of them if they wouldn't feature this keyword.
I am looking forward to a few more good Prowess cards in the future. That mechanic is quite interesting in tight combat situations. It also rewards thoughtful drafting and deckbuilding without posing too much of a restriction.
I am running three Prowess cards (Seeker of the Way, Monastery Mentor and Monastery Swiftspear) and I would run none of them if they wouldn't feature this keyword.
If they removed that ability and gave them another keyword or bolstered their permanent stats, they might be just as good if not better (in the cube that is).
There are cases where the ability pushes them into being includeable cards, but they'd all mostly be better off with a modified permanent stats rather than being smaller and having Prowess.
I am running three Prowess cards (Seeker of the Way, Monastery Mentor and Monastery Swiftspear) and I would run none of them if they wouldn't feature this keyword.
If they removed that ability and gave them another keyword or bolstered their permanent stats, they might be just as good if not better (in the cube that is).
There are cases where the ability pushes them into being includeable cards, but they'd all mostly be better off with a modified permanent stats rather than being smaller and having Prowess.
But that is the whole deal. None of those cards could have been printed with a significant change in power or toughness or another keyword that would have made them worth it. Swiftspear couldn't have been a 2/2 or 2/1 with haste for one mana, maybe a 1/3 and that would have sucked. They don't really print 3/2 or 3/3 white creatures with upside for 2 so seeker of the way wouldn't be the card it is. Monastery Mentor might have been a 2/4 without the p/t pumping I can give you that but a 3/3 would have been very unlikely.
Prowess could end up being one of my favorite abilities because it has almost no cost associated with adding in, but it is a highly synergistic effect. And as shown, it is the extra triggered abilities that push these cards, and I believe already having prowess will cause them to add other synergy cards in the future. Plus it is way better than worrying about just instants and sorceries.
But I will give you that Ojutai Exembplars is better as a 4/4 for 4 with the unique trigger than a 3/3 with prowess and the unique trigger.
Has anybody actually managed to make Jeskai Ascendancy cubeable? I support Spells Matter with all the other cards people are discussing but Ascendancy is so difficult to cast and so difficult to utilize in cube. Its never coming down turn 3 and I'd be amazed if you got it out with a mana dork and actually went crazy with it. I love the card but the consensus on its SCD was that its not going to work in cube. I'd like to hear what its done from people who have ran it.
I'm looking at adding some flexible colour pair cards if I increase to 405 for Glimpsing purposes. The Boros options after the top 3 don't really excite me or offer too much unique, so I'm looking at one of my favourite Boros cards back in the day, which I've never really cubed - Sunforger. although slow to get started, it offers a massive power boost and the unattach effect is very strong in a highlander environment, especially where you can get all kinds of brokenness in the cube. I'm mentioning it here seeing as it's a nice card to hook out extra spells from the toolbox for spells matter decks, in the sense that you should have a good suite of targets and it will proc your effects too. I haven't really tested it yet but it seems fun and like it could be good. The relative lack of white instants might be an issue but, worth mentioning.
I'm looking at adding some flexible colour pair cards if I increase to 405 for Glimpsing purposes. The Boros options after the top 3 don't really excite me or offer too much unique, so I'm looking at one of my favourite Boros cards back in the day, which I've never really cubed - Sunforger. although slow to get started, it offers a massive power boost and the unattach effect is very strong in a highlander environment, especially where you can get all kinds of brokenness in the cube. I'm mentioning it here seeing as it's a nice card to hook out extra spells from the toolbox for spells matter decks, in the sense that you should have a good suite of targets and it will proc your effects too. I haven't really tested it yet but it seems fun and like it could be good. The relative lack of white instants might be an issue but, worth mentioning.
Will love to hear about results. Lightning helix might be the more standard choice but sun forger is sexier. I say put isochron sceptre in at the same time to encourage the deck.
I'm looking at adding some flexible colour pair cards if I increase to 405 for Glimpsing purposes. The Boros options after the top 3 don't really excite me or offer too much unique, so I'm looking at one of my favourite Boros cards back in the day, which I've never really cubed - Sunforger. although slow to get started, it offers a massive power boost and the unattach effect is very strong in a highlander environment, especially where you can get all kinds of brokenness in the cube. I'm mentioning it here seeing as it's a nice card to hook out extra spells from the toolbox for spells matter decks, in the sense that you should have a good suite of targets and it will proc your effects too. I haven't really tested it yet but it seems fun and like it could be good. The relative lack of white instants might be an issue but, worth mentioning.
Will love to hear about results. Lightning helix might be the more standard choice but sun forger is sexier. I say put isochron sceptre in at the same time to encourage the deck.
Lightning Helix would be one the cards you would like to target with Sunforger though. I would cut something else from the Boros section, e.g. Boros Reckoner, Iroas, Gisela, Chained to the Rocks, Aurelia's Fury if you play any of those.
But he doesn't run any of those, because he's looking to add a 4th, which means he's only playing the top 3 spells in the guild.
Ah yes sorry. I forgot to look for the cube link in his signature.
@Goodking: if you decide to try out Sunforger, I would be interested to hear how it fares.
I have some doubts, but it carries a huge impact and it's a long-term favourite card of mine. We'll enjoy testing it even if it's low on power overall. I think the ability to unattach to deal with artifacts, enchantments, creatures or just burn more to the face suits cube well. I also want to avoid having three or four 'hard' gold cards (like Ajani Vengeant) in any of the guild pairs; there is flexible room preferably for hybrids, artifacts (e.g. Dimir Signet or Sunforger) or lands like Creeping Tar Pit.
There are still a few cards not mentioned yet. Spellheart Chimera and Runechanter's Pike come to my mind. I will try those in a small Modern Cube. Can't say anything about them yet cause I am still in the process of acquiring cards for the cube.
Also Rebound spells are good, because you get 2 triggers from 1 card.
Wow. Sunforger is old school. I'd love to hear how that works out if you try it. I've often wondered if that card was playable in cube. My friend had a casual deck built around it and Sunforger was very effective in that.
I'll give another shout out for Runechanter's Pike. It's a solid card in spells matter (though nonbo's a bit with flashback spells).
Hidden Strings is also really good with (IMO) the best cards in this archetype (guttersnipe, young pyromancer, monastery mentor). The first time you cast it, it can clear a path or untap the lands you used to play it (making it free - a nice tempo play). It also can pump your prowess dudes each turn if it's ciphered onto a creature with first strike (and your other dudes don't have first strike). That scenario is narrow obviously, but I mention it because it's exactly what you can manufacture with Runchanter's Pike.
This has become a very fun and competitive deck in our meta.
Wow. Sunforger is old school. I'd love to hear how that works out if you try it. I've often wondered if that card was playable in cube. My friend had a casual deck built around it and Sunforger was very effective in that.
I'll give another shout out for Runechanter's Pike. It's a solid card in spells matter (though nonbo's a bit with flashback spells).
Hidden Strings is also really good with (IMO) the best cards in this archetype (guttersnipe, young pyromancer, monastery mentor). The first time you cast it, it can clear a path or untap the lands you used to play it (making it free - a nice tempo play). It also can pump your prowess dudes each turn if it's ciphered onto a creature with first strike (and your other dudes don't have first strike). That scenario is narrow obviously, but I mention it because it's exactly what you can manufacture with Runchanter's Pike.
This has become a very fun and competitive deck in our meta.
Hidden Strings sounds really cool now that you mention it. Some dream scenario would be turn 1 Delver, flip it turn 2, play Hidden Strings untapping your lands, cipher it onto your Insectile Abomination, play Young Pyromancer, attack with Insectile, triggering Cipher, untapping your lands again, getting a token and have mana for Serum Visions, a Bolt, Spell Pierce or whatever.
A good chunk of things have been printed since the last post in this thread, so I thought I would comment to bring it back up for some update discussion.
First and foremost, the goal of my comment here is to just discuss additions to the archetype for those interested in adding it to their Cube. As always, remember that Cubes can vary in power level and not every archetype is going to fit in every Cube. I think that Spells Matter is a very fun and interesting archetype in MTG and it is always fun to see new cars that fit within it.
I am certain that I have missed some, but I would love to see what others have seen that I did not and what some of you all think about the cards fitting into the archetype.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Do not under estimate Kiln Fiend or Thing in the Ice. I've burnt people out of no-where mid game while they were at 12-14 life.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I love Seasoned Pyromancer, and it actively contributes to a lot of different decks (Tokens, aristocrats, ETB trigger abuse decks, graveyard decks of any nature, etc) ...but I don't think spells matters is one of the shells where it's abilities provide any additional value.
The problem with Seasoned Pyromancer is you need to discard non-land cards to gain the value. Spell's matters decks want to discard their excess lands to draw into additional cantrips/ burn
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What are peoples opinion on mana cards. Obviously power (moxes lotues) are great and the usual accelerants(sol ring, crypt, grim). But what about pentad prism, sark ritual, manamorphose? I sometimes dabble in black for the tutors, will, removal, discard but there are no true spells matters cards there.
Pentad Prism and manamorphose felt too narrow when I tried themn for storm but maybe I give them another shot?
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
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Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
I am looking forward to a few more good Prowess cards in the future. That mechanic is quite interesting in tight combat situations. It also rewards thoughtful drafting and deckbuilding without posing too much of a restriction.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
If they removed that ability and gave them another keyword or bolstered their permanent stats, they might be just as good if not better (in the cube that is).
There are cases where the ability pushes them into being includeable cards, but they'd all mostly be better off with a modified permanent stats rather than being smaller and having Prowess.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But that is the whole deal. None of those cards could have been printed with a significant change in power or toughness or another keyword that would have made them worth it. Swiftspear couldn't have been a 2/2 or 2/1 with haste for one mana, maybe a 1/3 and that would have sucked. They don't really print 3/2 or 3/3 white creatures with upside for 2 so seeker of the way wouldn't be the card it is. Monastery Mentor might have been a 2/4 without the p/t pumping I can give you that but a 3/3 would have been very unlikely.
Prowess could end up being one of my favorite abilities because it has almost no cost associated with adding in, but it is a highly synergistic effect. And as shown, it is the extra triggered abilities that push these cards, and I believe already having prowess will cause them to add other synergy cards in the future. Plus it is way better than worrying about just instants and sorceries.
But I will give you that Ojutai Exembplars is better as a 4/4 for 4 with the unique trigger than a 3/3 with prowess and the unique trigger.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Will love to hear about results. Lightning helix might be the more standard choice but sun forger is sexier. I say put isochron sceptre in at the same time to encourage the deck.
Lightning Helix would be one the cards you would like to target with Sunforger though. I would cut something else from the Boros section, e.g. Boros Reckoner, Iroas, Gisela, Chained to the Rocks, Aurelia's Fury if you play any of those.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Ah yes sorry. I forgot to look for the cube link in his signature.
@Goodking: if you decide to try out Sunforger, I would be interested to hear how it fares.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Also Rebound spells are good, because you get 2 triggers from 1 card.
I'll give another shout out for Runechanter's Pike. It's a solid card in spells matter (though nonbo's a bit with flashback spells).
Hidden Strings is also really good with (IMO) the best cards in this archetype (guttersnipe, young pyromancer, monastery mentor). The first time you cast it, it can clear a path or untap the lands you used to play it (making it free - a nice tempo play). It also can pump your prowess dudes each turn if it's ciphered onto a creature with first strike (and your other dudes don't have first strike). That scenario is narrow obviously, but I mention it because it's exactly what you can manufacture with Runchanter's Pike.
This has become a very fun and competitive deck in our meta.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Hidden Strings sounds really cool now that you mention it. Some dream scenario would be turn 1 Delver, flip it turn 2, play Hidden Strings untapping your lands, cipher it onto your Insectile Abomination, play Young Pyromancer, attack with Insectile, triggering Cipher, untapping your lands again, getting a token and have mana for Serum Visions, a Bolt, Spell Pierce or whatever.
Runechanter's Pike also works poor with Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise
First and foremost, the goal of my comment here is to just discuss additions to the archetype for those interested in adding it to their Cube. As always, remember that Cubes can vary in power level and not every archetype is going to fit in every Cube. I think that Spells Matter is a very fun and interesting archetype in MTG and it is always fun to see new cars that fit within it.
Baral, Chief of Compliance as a nice loot option with some spell discounting.
Spellseeker as a way to fetch key spells.
God-Eternal Kefnet as a recurring threat + some spell value each turn.
Search for Azcanta as another way to fetch spells during a game.
Narset, Parter of Veils, a planeswalker that can dig for spells and limit opponents is nice.
Seasoned Pyromancer!!!
Teferi, Time Raveler is a great option for limiting your opponent while giving yourself a bit more flexibility with your spells.
Rielle, the Everwise seems sweet.
Ral, Storm Conduit is some copy spell action.
Kykar, Wind's Fury is some token value.
Narset of the Ancient Way seems pretty nice for 3 colors if you are wanting to support the archetype in them.
Whirlwind of Thought seems decent for 3 colors as well.
I am certain that I have missed some, but I would love to see what others have seen that I did not and what some of you all think about the cards fitting into the archetype.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Kiln Fiend
Thing in the Ice
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Dreadhorde Arcanist
Abbot of Keral Keep
Do not under estimate Kiln Fiend or Thing in the Ice. I've burnt people out of no-where mid game while they were at 12-14 life.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i