I wouldn't say the new Nissa is awesome, but green's 3-mana creature section isn't very deep already.
I play Shaman of Forgotten Ways in my 720 card cube and I plan to replace him with new Origin Nissa. She is good in Fastbond ramp decks that I already support.
I also think she's a fine inclusion in slightly larger cubes, and maybe even into the 540-630 size as well. Her WCS/ACS isn't terrible, and if you can occasionally see the back-side of the card early, she'll be sweet.
Even if it is just a Forest, fetching a land is still a good ability strapped on a 2/2 for 2G. I see her being very good in ramp decks with Oracle of Mul Daya, Courser and Nissa, Worldwaker. She has synergies with Kiora and Lotus Cobra too. I might even want to try her in midrange decks that don't have lots of other ways to draw extra cards. The upside of flipping to her PW side and getting to activate that +1 a few times and spit out a 4/4 is great value.
You are right, at any point in the game she is not a dead draw, but is she a good draw? I'm thinking no, but she could potentially surprise. Name one of your current green 3 drops she provides more value than.
We proxied this - player who drafted it wanted to cut it, but we made him play it to test it. It never flipped or did anything other than fetched that forest. Our whole group was of the opinion that it is clearly the weakest of the bunch. It was a small sample set of testing, but I wasn't enarmored with the card to begin with.
At minimum you're getting a card for free. Adding a metric tonne of upside onto that is what makes it powerful to me. 7 lands isn't a dreadful requirement; it's more like 6 anyways because of the built-in search.
3 mana is a low cost for green to pay to have a minimum of a free land card. The fact you can actually start piling an incremental advantage later in the game makes it highly cube-able. Most green 3 drops don't cover that range of power, flexibility, and very good worst-case-scenario.
We've been looking into this closer as a group, and have done some testing and some theorycrafting.
One thing that I do like about this card, is that in cases where games go long, it's usually not a great sign for the green midrange deck. It probably means that you're playing a dedicated control deck, and you have a hell of an uphill battle to climb in turns 6+. That is where Nissa will prove her worth. In her WCS and ACS scenarios, she's just going to be a 2/2 that draws you a Forest for 2G. Which isn't great, but it isn't terrible either (as we've discussed). But when she's on, she's not only going to be great, but she's going to be important. Since long grindy games against control are so problematic for the kinds of decks that would play Nissa anyways, she's a nice insurance policy to have that when the game goes super long, you'll have a replaceable 4/4 threat on the board and a card-advantage engine to grind out a win. On the back of the original 2/2 body and Forest that you got for your 3 mana.
I was originally unimpressed, and I still think she's probably too below-par in her ACS for smaller cubes, but I think the value that she'll bring to games that are going undesirably long for your green midrange decks will be quite high.
Now, we've observed 15 games with a sample green midrange deck in testing so far. 5 games against aggro, 5 games against midrange, and 5 games against control:
• All 5 aggro matches ended with neither player having 7+ lands in play.
• 2/5 midrange mirrors had the green midrange deck reach 7 lands. But in both cases, the game ended on that turn or on the opponent's next immediate turn.
• 3/5 control matches the green midrange player reached 7 lands, and lost all 3 of those games after a multi-turn struggle against control after reaching 7 lands.
I don't know what that necessarily means for her future, but it looks like when she's at her best, she'd be needed the most. Could turn out to be an important part of her evaluation. On the flipside (no pun intended), she would only have the possibility of transforming in 1/3 of the games we witnessed, and that would be assuming that she survives all the way until the 7th land drops or comes down when she can transform immediately, and that's a big set of ifs.
Very good, objective and informative post wtwlf. Like many good cube cards, it's definitely to her benefit that she shines in those tricky match-ups for your deck. And against aggro... well, it grabs a land and trades with a 2/1. Which is OK, to be honest.
Still on the fence, like it sounds your group is. The recent movement away from land-based ramp to mana dorks and enchantment effects such as Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl just does not help Nissa much in her endeavour to transform. And potentially a 4/4 will not cut it in those long matches since you'll likely be dealing with large fliers and such. Repeatable CA is gonna help, though.
I'm going to keep her on my radar, may be a case of picking up a cheap foil as and when I can and trying it. Not ruling anything out.
@wtwlf - glad to hear there's others interested in this card. I think if she flips she is certainly worth the cost so it comes down to (1) how often she flips and (2) are you okay with having a 2/2 for 2G that grabs a forest. Her +1 is very desirable for midrange, grindy value or ramp decks against control. And trading vs aggro while fetching a land isn't at all embarassing, considering the upside.
Do you remember what other cards were in the deck that she was played in? Were there any land ramping creatures/spells at all? Did you have ways to bring her back for the late game like a Reveillark or reanimate effects?
But Nissa provides one of the lands herself. If you draw/ramp into 6 without a Nissa, and then some time passes with you at 6, then Nissa would have put you to 7 and flipped herself.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Her preorder price is much less obnoxious than I thought it would be. I kind of want to give her a chance but i've not decided for sure if I want to cut morphs entirely for the time being just yet.
Wouldn't it make sense to also count games where you hit 6 land and missed a land drop at some point?
No, because there were already other land ramp cards in the deck we were watching. Sometimes green will have multiples of those kinds of effects, and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they'll draw them, and sometimes they won't. Since those games had their fair share of STE activations, and Cultivates being cast, and Coursers hitting lands and the like, it seems pretty balanced to look at how many times 7 lands will be hit, because there were already replacement effects that provided extra lands in those games that might've been Nissa instead.
Really great analysis wtwlf, I had the logic backwards in my head of , the only time you get to 7 lands is vs control and by that point you've lost the game... So it doesn't matter. But maybe that's not true.. If it's not true, than an extra lategame threat + card draw engine is exactly the type of card that will get you back in the game.
I rechecked this thread because I've been thinking long and hard about nissa in a small-medium powered cube (I think she's great in large cubes, as I explained in an earlier post) and eveytime I think about her, the better she seems in my eyes. Interesting that seems to be the trend of the thread too.
Will at least give her a test run at this point, and label her as an unlikely include.
I hit 7 lands (ramp/cheat deck) in 3 out of 5 games vs a fairly standard UW deck today with only STE and Oracle as land rampers. Of the 3 games I won 2 -- which were the games I had Nissa. If you're looking for a tool to help ramp/midrange sustain vs control, I'd say a case can be made for Nissa even in smaller cubes. She's narrow, but pretty amazing in the decks that can flip her. Her +1 is just what green decks need.
Also, the more I play with Craterhoof the more I love him. Not only does he win games out of nowhere, he's also... cute
Any additional info on this card? I popped one in some packs I was given for Xmas. I'd never have bought her but since I essentially got her for free I'm considering giving her a spin. Does she make the cut in a 450 Powered cube?
Any additional info on this card? I popped one in some packs I was given for Xmas. I'd never have bought her but since I essentially got her for free I'm considering giving her a spin. Does she make the cut in a 450 Powered cube?
Cheers,
rant
Nissa is solid. If I were to cut a card in your cube for it, it'd probably be Ainok Survivalist.
Would cube with her if she didn't have the word "basic" in her text. This restriction annoys me to no end and I can already see myself stopping others from tutoring up duals every other draft. In other words: She lacks elegant design and creates confusion. Not going to cube with her.
I play Shaman of Forgotten Ways in my 720 card cube and I plan to replace him with new Origin Nissa. She is good in Fastbond ramp decks that I already support.
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3 mana is a low cost for green to pay to have a minimum of a free land card. The fact you can actually start piling an incremental advantage later in the game makes it highly cube-able. Most green 3 drops don't cover that range of power, flexibility, and very good worst-case-scenario.
One thing that I do like about this card, is that in cases where games go long, it's usually not a great sign for the green midrange deck. It probably means that you're playing a dedicated control deck, and you have a hell of an uphill battle to climb in turns 6+. That is where Nissa will prove her worth. In her WCS and ACS scenarios, she's just going to be a 2/2 that draws you a Forest for 2G. Which isn't great, but it isn't terrible either (as we've discussed). But when she's on, she's not only going to be great, but she's going to be important. Since long grindy games against control are so problematic for the kinds of decks that would play Nissa anyways, she's a nice insurance policy to have that when the game goes super long, you'll have a replaceable 4/4 threat on the board and a card-advantage engine to grind out a win. On the back of the original 2/2 body and Forest that you got for your 3 mana.
I was originally unimpressed, and I still think she's probably too below-par in her ACS for smaller cubes, but I think the value that she'll bring to games that are going undesirably long for your green midrange decks will be quite high.
Now, we've observed 15 games with a sample green midrange deck in testing so far. 5 games against aggro, 5 games against midrange, and 5 games against control:
• All 5 aggro matches ended with neither player having 7+ lands in play.
• 2/5 midrange mirrors had the green midrange deck reach 7 lands. But in both cases, the game ended on that turn or on the opponent's next immediate turn.
• 3/5 control matches the green midrange player reached 7 lands, and lost all 3 of those games after a multi-turn struggle against control after reaching 7 lands.
I don't know what that necessarily means for her future, but it looks like when she's at her best, she'd be needed the most. Could turn out to be an important part of her evaluation. On the flipside (no pun intended), she would only have the possibility of transforming in 1/3 of the games we witnessed, and that would be assuming that she survives all the way until the 7th land drops or comes down when she can transform immediately, and that's a big set of ifs.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Still on the fence, like it sounds your group is. The recent movement away from land-based ramp to mana dorks and enchantment effects such as Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl just does not help Nissa much in her endeavour to transform. And potentially a 4/4 will not cut it in those long matches since you'll likely be dealing with large fliers and such. Repeatable CA is gonna help, though.
I'm going to keep her on my radar, may be a case of picking up a cheap foil as and when I can and trying it. Not ruling anything out.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Do you remember what other cards were in the deck that she was played in? Were there any land ramping creatures/spells at all? Did you have ways to bring her back for the late game like a Reveillark or reanimate effects?
No, as missing a land drop is part of the game. Especially if you look at curving out to 7 lands!
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
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No, because there were already other land ramp cards in the deck we were watching. Sometimes green will have multiples of those kinds of effects, and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they'll draw them, and sometimes they won't. Since those games had their fair share of STE activations, and Cultivates being cast, and Coursers hitting lands and the like, it seems pretty balanced to look at how many times 7 lands will be hit, because there were already replacement effects that provided extra lands in those games that might've been Nissa instead.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I rechecked this thread because I've been thinking long and hard about nissa in a small-medium powered cube (I think she's great in large cubes, as I explained in an earlier post) and eveytime I think about her, the better she seems in my eyes. Interesting that seems to be the trend of the thread too.
Will at least give her a test run at this point, and label her as an unlikely include.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Nissa is solid. If I were to cut a card in your cube for it, it'd probably be Ainok Survivalist.
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