MTG Salvation

I have never seen a player try and tutor up a dual land. It says basic, and as long as players read the card, it's not the least bit confusing or inelegant. Don't let the fear of players not reading a very easy to understand ability prevent you from playing a great card rantipole.

Every other card in cube that lets you tutor for a land and mentions a specific basic land type lets you tutor for duals with basic land types, too. This has also been true for almost every single land searcher from Alpha to Origins. Now, suddenly, we get a few cards that slap on the "basic Forest" restriction. Of course it is inelegant and potentially confusing. Do not expect players to read every card carefully when decades of play have set up expectations how certain cards play.

Well, your assumptions lead you to believe it's confusing and inelegant. My experience with the card suggests otherwise. But perhaps players in our groups play differently. My players tend to read cards before drafting/playing them. And they read them again when they cast them. It hasn't been confusing in ay way, shape or form even once.

It is undeniable that the card would be more elegant and less confusing if the word "basic" wasn't there.

I am not going to have a discussion on game design, player psychology and aesthetics here though.

Quote from Star Slayer »

It is undeniable that the card would be more elegant and less confusing if the word "basic" wasn't there.

I deny that. I don't think it's the least bit inelegant or confusing.

It would've been better (as in stronger) and too good for standard if it could fetch duals. But it's as easy to understand as they come.

Quote from Star Slayer »

I am not going to have a discussion on game design, player psychology and aesthetics here though.

You mean any more discussion? Okay.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

Quote from Star Slayer »

It is undeniable that the card would be more elegant and less confusing if the word "basic" wasn't there.

I deny that. I don't think it's the least bit inelegant or confusing.

If you deny that, then you are simply wrong, because it is an undeniable fact. You can say "the decrease in elegance and the increase in confusion are so minor that it doesn't matter" (and that is probably what you meant to say), but you can't sa "those aren't there".

FWIW, we've had her in for a while now (after not being a fan of her on paper after initial release) and she's been pretty good. She's not a 360 staple or anything, but she's a good card that provides some value in a lot of different green archetypes. As to the confusion and inelegance, I've not yet had a player accidentally tutor up a dual land with her. I have, however, seen players start to search then stop and read the card again to make sure that wasn't a possibility. That's usually followed by, "Oh, she only gets a basic Forest? Lame." But then the game continues and no one is confused. Honestly, I see more confusion and re-reading from a card like Dance of the Dead with its tiny text than I do with Nissa and we still have no problems reanimating creatures with Dance of the Dead.

For me the "elegance" of a card is pretty irrelevant when the card is strong, and an at-first worse Borderland Ranger that turns into a planes walker has proven to be solid.

And this card isn't confusing at all; it's pretty clear what it does since it says so on the card. The cards typically tend to do what is written.

Quote from Star Slayer »

If you deny that, then you are simply wrong, because it is an undeniable fact.

It's not an "undeniable fact" that Basic Forest is less elegant than Forest. That is your opinion. The additional complexity that getting any Forest goes into the evaluation and function of the card arguably makes it far more complicated, and therefore less elegant. It is an undeniable fact that getting any forest is less elegant than only getting a basic forest. If you deny that, than you are simply wrong.

There are far more complicated cards in most peoples cubes than this. I cant imagine not playing this particular card over complexity concerns. Cards with Suspend or Fading are a lot more complicated than this.

Nissa has been surprisingly good. The basic scenario of it being a forest only Bordorland Ranger, is rarely bad, most of the times just what those decks need. But the late game value is very impressive Often your opponent will have to deal with it before it turns, which means he has to kill a utility creature after it has been useful.

I was doubtful at first, but she has been great here at 470.

Star Slayer, there is nothing inelegant about Basic Forest. It is just different then what we are used too (and yes, weaker). There is nothing undeniable about your statement. Look at us denying it

Quote from CuberAng »

Nissa's been really good. Really. I consider her closed to a 450 unpowered staple and she might find a cut in powered enviroments too.

I'm very happy running her in my small powered cube... and though grabbing duals would be better, basic forests are just fine in practice. One of my favorites from Origins.

She played better than expected and don't think I'm in a huge rush to cut her. There hasn't been any confusion on her search ability.

None of our players have found the search restriction inelegant or confusing in the slightest. She's quite solid, and will likely have a home in our 540 unpowered for a long time.

She's great! I'd definitely be playing her at 450.

I play a non powered slightly powered down 360 Cube and she has been great. She demands some respect from your opponent at the very least. Basic Forest has been an issue 0% of the time. But what is an issue? Reminding someone they cant get their Breeding Pool and they need a basic forest?

Some people don't have water or food. Not fetching a Dual Land is fine.

Quote from BacchusNL »

Quote from Ace_Stevo »

Some people don't have water or food. Not fetching a Dual Land is fine.

We have to consider all the suffering in the world when evaluating a cube card now...? That's a bit of a bummer.

Hahahah, yeah man.

It's about 3 days old at this point, but I think the "inelegance" argument against the word "basic" is way off base. Nissa is like... really into forests. Real forests, not these breeding pools or whatever.

I even think it's nice to have a card strong enough (as she seems to be) and still coming with restrictions.
(I've been modo cubing all night and she's been cappin' fools for me.)

Quote from Leelue »

Nissa is like... really into forests. Real forests, not these breeding pools or whatever.

Yeah Nissa, I mean, even Rofellos thinks you're kind of a hardliner. Whew girl, lighten the hell up.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer was discussed Here in the Random Cube Card of the Day Thread. You know the stick, wood you visit the thread... I'll leaf now...

(Spoiler: She is ok; Borderland Ranger's planeswalking cousin.)