Sword of the Animist- Better than a lot of bad tier 2 equipment, but the pump is pretty small and it's often incorrect to cash a small creature that still can't get through in for a land. Still fine, but I had higher hopes.
You realise that the creature only has to attack to get the land, not 'get through'? Just checking here.
I'm looking forward to Relic Seeker and Harbinger some of the most.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It isn't like Jitte where it's often worth throwing away tokens just to get more counters on the Jitte; you really do want to get through, even though you don't have to. Also, many of the decks that want this are the grindier type and lack evasion to help with this.
In the times where it's incorrect to cash in a small creature for a land, don't do it. But those situations have been few and far between in testing anyways. Midrange decks almost outpace the creature quality of the opponent's deck in the midgame anyways. Not to mention that you don't even need a creature size advantage, just creature parity, because the Sword gives your attacking body the edge anyways, forcing bad blocks or getting extra damage (and lands) through. Sword doesn't ask midrange decks to do anything they're not already doing to profit. But it does give the deck access to something it can't get anywhere else.
Results from a two player triple deck sealed. (180 cards each 3 decks each, smash all 3 decks vs all 3 opp. Decks)
Kytheon: great. Flipped a few times indestructable was huge.
Jace: great. Flipped twice, both times great.
Something of note, stealing the new flipwalkers in creature form isn't as good, and actually limits what you doo with them after you steal them. (Fun interaction)
Talent of the telepath: interesting/good. Cast twice once unmastered just harmonize. 2nd time mastered options were silimgar command, abrupt decay, wheel of fortune. Sounds awesome except he had no targets for decay, all his dudes were etb with more than 3 toughness, and I had 7 cards in hand to his 1. The milling them was relevant for a necromancy though.
Whirler rogue:good only cast once. But have so many options for my next turn he couldn't answer enough things. Fun and flexible.
Scan-clan: ok. Renowned 4/4 times. Only burned him once, probably could have been any 3 drop aggro guy.
Molten vortex:good. Outright stole a game, and locked up another. The extra angle of attack made it better than just another burn spell.
That's all that made in to play.
Small sample but I like this set for cube.
Overall a slightly lower performance from many of the cards than I was expecting, this set is not on the power of khans/dragons of tarkir.
We found the overall performance inline with our expectations and also with your report. We were not expecting any high picks from this group of cards.
STRONG PERFORMANCE Languish
I didn't get to see it too much, but it blew my white weenie deck out hard twice, also watched it clear the boards in other games. Helping my friends build
their decks, there was UB reanimator deck that had many 5+ toughness finishers that languish looked very very good in.
verdict:
I think it might be very slightly better than damnation and will eventually be the second sweeper of choice (worse than toxic deluge) in 360 lists. If it turns out not better than damnation, 450+ cube will likely have 3 sweepers. This being one of the 3.
To us, Languish is clearly superior to Damnation because of its applications with large creatures. In general the color has too much going on to provide heavy support for control. This is partially due to the fact that Black is by far the most archetype oriented color which is dictated by Black's cards being the most color intensive/demanding of all colors.
The other dimension to keep in mind is that virtually every deck relies on creatures which makes Wrath effects more symmetrical and less desirable. The final consideration is the high resiliency of Cube creatures to Wrath effects in general and particularly the ones that come down before the critical turn 4. Other Cubes seem to have tended away from some of these creatures due to other concerns such as casting cost. In our Cube, Moat, Humility, Parallax Wave, Terminus etc. are superior choices to Wrath/Supreme Verdict.
Gideon-
In the games I played him, I never got to flip him, nor did the threat of flipping him make much of a difference with the board state that was developing against me. However, his indestructible ability proved relevant multiple times. In more explosive draws his planeswalker side is going to be phenomonal, but on average I suspect his power will come from the indestructable.
Verdict: Likely as good as predicted. 360 staple and a leg above most one drops. Mid to early-mid pick in my cube.
I agree with your assessment regarding the indestructibility although it remains to be seen whether the flip ability seals games where you have the perfect start or whether it is largely window dressing in games you were likely to win anyway (something like the debate swirling around the closer in baseball). I do not think this this card can compare to Mother of Runes and I don't think it can ever be an early pick since it is not a strong enough pull into White aggro. I think it is a mid and later pick. This is mostly second hand opinion because I did not play the card myself yet but that is how it seemed to go for our group.
Kiran and Pila nalaar-
Got to play her in a good stuff 2 power or less grixis deck, and was impressed. She gummed up the board providing great defense, was able to take out pesky creatures from the opponent if needed, and was able to chip in significant damage each turn.
Verdict: Slightly better than I predicted (and I liked her), 360 staple. Expect to be on par with siege gang commander. Probably slightly better. Mid-late pick in my cube.
This card does not have SGC as a comparable for us, because it wants to be used in niche (ie non beats) archetypes. SGC suffered from the fact that he only truly benefitted from random/sporadic synergies with other cards while not fitting the core plan of the red aggro deck(s). Five mana is also significantly more than four in those decks. We're undecided how much additional artifact support K&P requires in the color red (Feldon, Daretti, what have you). If it is too much for 360 then this card won't get a large archetype bonus and will have to make the Cube solely on its power level and despite the fact that it somewhat clashes with what 90% of the color red is oriented toward, especially the current crop of premium 4 drops. To some extent this is a choice in Cube design but there are practical and philosophical sides to the matter.
Lilliana Heretical Healer
In the right deck she's very easy to flip, and her flip reanimation side can provide a lot of utility, as well as shred control players hands apart.
Verdict: Great card, tier 1 black 3 drop, similar in power to ophiomancer and flesh carver. 360 staple. Mid to mid-late pick.
She fits black's themes and there are enough 3 drops still seeing play even at 360 that it is hard to imagine not playing her. I personally question her abstract power level if she is only being used as a "value" card -- probably fine but likely overrated -- but since Black is defined by archetype in our Cube I will demur on that question and just say that she is a mid pick if you are already on the right deck and a bottom pick otherwise.
MEDIOCORE PERFORMANCE Priest of the Blood Rite
I had him in 2 decks, and 2 players ran him. He was on the cusp of playable in both my decks (pod style deck and jund reanimator). I never got to cast him, but 2 games I died while he was stuck in my hand and I didnt have enough mana to cast him. Plus, one game there was a few situations where had I drew him off the top, he would have been decent, but not great.
My friend had him in a UB reanimator deck with clone effects.. Said it helped him win a game. He cast demon, metamorphed the demon token, blocked the opponents attack with the 2/2, then reanimated it the next turn. 3 5/5 flyers won the game for him easily.
Verdict:
More confident in my predictions of him being marginally better than the current best options we have. 360-450 range, but among the bottom quarter of 5 drops in cube. Late pick in my cube, will sit in sideboards. Some decks will happily have the card wheel to them.
Not convinced it is better than Ob Nix. Also not convinced that there is Cube design is a slave to the "need" for a Black 5 drop. I will try to convince our group to put him in so we can confirm with testing results, but in general 5 mana cards get worse as Cubes get tigher, faster, and more synergistic which produces more cohesive decks. You can argue that the Priest goes the opposite direction and gets better in those situations but I don't think so -- most of his best interactions are for random value and most of the cards cited so far are quite marginal at 360 themselves, for the same reason (Imperial Recruiter, Reveillark,.)
Currently not testing
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
I had Nissa in many decks. It was very hard to justify playing her in all of them. Although, it was close. I played her a couple times where maybe I shouldnt have to test her out. I drew her many times as a borderline ranger, and was slightly surprised how decent a borderland ranger felt in my cube. Unfortunately, she didn't flip once... But once she did draw a removal spell when I was at 5 lands. I looked around the room many times at green decks and almost never did they hit 7 lands.
Verdict:
In slower formats Nissa is going to be a very very good card. Her flip side becomes much more likely to happen, and her main side is better than most people realize.
My cube is fast and powerful, probably plays equivalent to most 360's if not slightly more powerful. I don't think she can hack it in my environment, but ill keep testing. If a lot of cultivate+ cards see print I might give her a second test run if I cut her.
450+ unpowered staple.
Not testing
POOR PERFORMANCE Relic seeker
Had it in a white weenie deck and a boros agro deck, saw it in a WG collected company deck. Got outclassed a bit too frequently for my liking. The card is not really what you want to be doing in swarm strategies. You really want it in a deck that's capable of getting it through and is able to grind long enough to get value off of the equipment it draws. Hard to explain but it felt slower and more conditional than I expected.
Verdict:
Maybe I was on the wrong side of variance, but the card is a bit more narrow than I was hoping. You need equipment AND ways to get it through, and in that case it's only good, not insane. Will keep testing, but it may fall in the 450-540 range, where I was hoping it was 360-450 quality.
I assume the enthusiasm for this card was because it was spoiled as an etb ability. Even then it was fringe until at least 450 in our opinion. Not testing. There is the argument that it is a bear with an interesting ability and potential p/t growth, but this argument reflects a conceptual bias towards building white aggro along "hate bear" lines. That is not the style of deck supported by the stable of white low drops, especially at one mana. It also doesn't mesh well with W/R aggro decks which are more or less "all in".
Evolutionary Leap
Decks that wanted this kind of effect, tended to want other more powerful creature based cube engines OVER this card. The decks that wanted to play it needed to have some removal to justify grinding, plus it needed a critical amount of creatures. This left room for 1 or 2 cards that could nothing by itself, consistently the decks had cards that were better at doing that. Survival of the fitest, swords, birthind pod, etc.. It was also more narrow than I was hoping. It lapped constantly in draft, and was consistently cut from decks that thought they wanted to play it.
Verdict:
Much more narrow than I was anticipating, partially because it doesn't stack up to the power of the engines already in cube. It also required a heavy green commitment to make use out of the sac effects. A very solid sideboard card against control at my power level, but in general I expect this card to make splashes in the 540+ range.
Agree that this is not an engine card which means that you have to evaluate it as a utility card. It is a difficult case to make. Also encourages playing less creatures which goes heavily against the grain in Cube. We will keep an eye out in case we are wrong about this card.
Abbot of Keral keep
Had it in a awsome BR sacrifice, tokens style deck with a variety of removal spells. Looked very solid in it, but mostly as a filler card. Had it in a grixis good stuff deck that was tilted in the proactive direction and wasn't impressed. Was hoping it would fringe playable in that style deck but it wasn't. One time I played it in the BR deck later in the game, the cantrip was very nice, but paying attention to the games and imagining "Do I want this card early in the game" answer I kept coming up with was... no. I think I over-estimated a 2/1 prowess for 2.
Verdict:
540+, As a card being cast on curve, it's too weak relative to the competition.
Agree, hard time imagining the place for this card outside of larger cubes that need more bodies. Can't foresee a deck where this won't serve as filler.
Cards you didn't touch on:
Jace, Whirler Rogue, Harbinger of Tides
Not sure how to size the blue cards up for "standard" cubes because in our Cube we treat Blue the same as other colors rather than gearing it exclusively for control and a super low creature count. Whirler Rogue has some very powerful interactions in particular. We're still mulling whether these cards are 360 or not.
Also not convinced that there is Cube design is a slave to the "need" for a Black 5 drop. I will try to convince our group to put him in so we can confirm with testing results, but in general 5 mana cards get worse as Cubes get tigher, faster, and more synergistic which produces more cohesive decks. You can argue that the Priest goes the opposite direction and gets better in those situations but I don't think so -- most of his best interactions are for random value and most of the cards cited so far are quite marginal at 360 themselves, for the same reason (Imperial Recruiter, Reveillark,.)
While I do agree that cubers shouldn't feel the 'need' to add a 5-drop in black (unless you're supporting Pod in which case the one Shriekmaw really isn't enough), I think the interactions and the 2/2 + 5/5 are good enough to warrant testing at the very least. However I do consider the cards mentioned to be much better than 'marginal' (ie. Reveillark is a staple, Recruiter I ranked in the top 20 in red) so it helps the interactions part of the evaluation for me. The -2 life is a real drawback though and has also caused me to cool off a little on the card.
---
I've been happy with Nissa myself so I'm glad to hear that she's getting reasonably good reviews, though perhaps it is due to people's lower expectations. Admittedly I am biased and want her to be good, and ramp gets drafted a lot here so there's that.
The Relic Seeker reviews are making me reconsider... I'm interested to hear more experiences with this guy.
I don't think Reveillark is a 360 'staple', either, FWIW. It and Recruiter are both cute and useful effects that I play (both of them) but not ones that I would be in grief for months over cutting. 'Lark needs quite a specific set-up for full value, and Recruiter needs a toolbox of ETB dudes or Stax deck to be worth paying 3 for the tiny body, despite the fact that it's a great early pick.
Priest is fine value on its own, and I never evaluate a card based on 'how many times can I blink/bounce/recur this' since most of the time, it won't come off. The 2 life is a major drawback but between the 7 power you just put down and the fact you can use it to chump or sac, I don't see it being an issue in the majority of situations. Being a creature (vs. OB Nix PW) is an advantage in so many ways though that it makes up for being worse in a vacuum.
I'm still very happy to cube Relic Seeker. Very pleased to get more equipment tutoring for a variety of decks, even if it is conditional. It's another two drop that I will (try to) ensure dies before it hits me if I see it on the other side of the table, which makes me change my game plan if I'm in control or midrange. These sorts of cards have traditionally been quite good in our cube though.
Nissa seems to be getting good write-ups and I still like the card. But getting to seven lands is kind of rare for our ramp decks, as a product of a fast environment and lots of creature/enchantment based ramp rather than Cultivate effects, and the fact that the cheat strategies like Tinker and Sneak Attack are generally supplementing those decks. OTOH I'm interested to hear more about Chandra if people are trying her out since heavy/mono-red is something I could bolster with a card or two.
Languish seems like it could actually be better than Damnation since it's a lot more exploitable if you are running a control deck. -4 is a nice number for Wildfire too.
I don't think Reveillark is a 360 'staple', either, FWIW.
This came up in another thread very recently. Dude, I have no idea what the (cube) world is coming to when Lark isn't a 360 staple. Do most games just end on turn 4 in your meta or something?
How insanely tight are your cube decks where you don't have time to not just get value but INSANE value out of Lark? In any white deck list that isn't purely control, this card has so many applications it's mind boggling. And even if it's not the most powerful card in a vacuum, it represents everything that is wonderful about synergy - combining multiple cards and getting effects that are greater than the sum of the parts.
A cube without this card would feel horribly soulless to me (no offense to those who have actually cut Lark). I think it would have to be so incredibly spike in nature, I don't know if I could enjoy myself.
On the subject of the priest, I put a proxy in my sacrifice deck and it was very solid. Not broken though. So that was positive. I still need to try it in more degenerate scenarios (blink/pod/etc).
Agreed with ahadabans. 'Lark is one of white's 20 best overall cards. So unless you're playing a cube that's so small that you don't have any white 5-drops, Reveillark is a staple.
My rule of staple is that the top 30 in each color (out of 50) will be count as staple in my mind. Reveillark is 360 staple for me as well.
But people do throw around 360 staple a lot. I bet there's more than 50 cards in each color people call staple but that would means all cards in the 360 cube can't be cut.
If you really want to get down to it, there probably isn't even such a thing as a true "staple". At least, not unless you attach an adjective to it. I think most here when they say "Staple", they are talking from a purely power focused list. And in that context, I would agree with WtWlf and Monkey that Lark is a staple. And as far as synergy effects go, I would also call it a staple. I certainly would never cut it even though my list is definitely not power focused. But someone might have a unique theme where Lark doesn't do what they want (or does it too well). And in that context, Lark may not be a staple. It may not even be playable.
We'd probably be better off just not using the term "staple" at all truthfully.
I don't think Reveillark is a 360 'staple', either, FWIW.
This came up in another thread very recently. Dude, I have no idea what the (cube) world is coming to when Lark isn't a 360 staple. Do most games just end on turn 4 in your meta or something?
How insanely tight are your cube decks where you don't have time to not just get value but INSANE value out of Lark? In any white deck list that isn't purely control, this card has so many applications it's mind boggling. And even if it's not the most powerful card in a vacuum, it represents everything that is wonderful about synergy - combining multiple cards and getting effects that are greater than the sum of the parts.
A cube without this card would feel horribly soulless to me (no offense to those who have actually cut Lark). I think it would have to be so incredibly spike in nature, I don't know if I could enjoy myself.
Did you even read my post? I do run 'Lark, and it's very good. However, I refuse to delude myself that 'Lark offers brilliant value every single time. It's well behind the curve as a 5 mana 4/3 flier, and has to die to get you value beyond that, and you have to have available targets in the graveyard, which are also helpful for whatever game-state is going on currently. Now each of these conditions is usually not hard to fill, but there are certainly occasions where the card has not earned its keep. While we usually get good-to-great value out of it, its high variance and inconsistency means I could totally understand some groups not running it in favour of something else, which was my original point. Even though it's a good card, I think it's one of the more overrated cards in the cube.
Maybe we just disagree on the definition of "staple", but I wouldn't call Reveillark a staple, either. Even though it most likely is the best white 5-drop, it is not universally useful and needs some set-up. Lightning Bolt is a staple, because it will always have the best damage to cost ratio as well as flexibility of all available burn spells. And that is true for all the decks that you can run it in. Reveillark on the other hand has some demands for the composition of your deck. And if you don't like to restrict yourself in such a way, you don't have to run Lark. Hm, it is hard to really explain what makes Bolt a staple for me and not Lark, but that's how I see it anyway.
OTOH I'm interested to hear more about Chandra if people are trying her out since heavy/mono-red is something I could bolster with a card or two.
I know mono red was the top tier deck on magic online but it doesn't get drafted a lot in my cube either. Maybe it's because there's too much non aggressive stuff in my red section (slots dedicated to Kiki/Twin, Daretti, Feldon, Recruiter) or because the burn spells are taken by too many drafters (gets splashed a lot, recently added Searing Blaze as a heavy red option). I'm hoping Chandra will get players drafting RDW more - she looks very strong there. Stoke the Flames and Exquisite Firecraft also look like solid options (though Fireblast might even be better than either).
Edit: Perhaps the term 'staple' needs to be defined. I always just thought a staple was a card that was accepted by the vast majority of cubers as powerful and easy includes, within their given restrictions (I assume that pauper/peasant cubes have their staples too, could be dead wrong). I consider Armageddon, Goblin Guide and Wurmcoil to be staples and they aren't cards that make every deck (though Wurmcoil almost does lol).
I have had a similar experience, but I'm trying to do a lot with my red section just like you guys (secondary reanimator colour, artifact support, token stuff). Since we're doing a bit more Glimpse drafting now, reintroducing some sort of interesting 'mono' support beyond adding a lot of CCC cards is possible. Please let me know if Chandra FoK works out for you guys.
I have had a similar experience, but I'm trying to do a lot with my red section just like you guys (secondary reanimator colour, artifact support, token stuff). Since we're doing a bit more Glimpse drafting now, reintroducing some sort of interesting 'mono' support beyond adding a lot of CCC cards is possible. Please let me know if Chandra FoK works out for you guys.
I'm very skeptical how good chandra is in mono-red in a small cube. Every angle I evaluate her at she fails. Average Damage per turn, vulnerable to removal, non-guarnteed damage. In a slow format she seems great as the damage can really add up, but I don't see it in a small cube.
Glancing at your list, even a strong 3 drop creature would be no where close to the thing I'd change to improve red.
I expect red to be only so-so in your cube actually. I'm sure versatility was one of the justifications you've used for your red composition, but each time you put in a more versatile spell that is merely "playable" in heavy-red agro , the more you hurt the archetype.
First off, you are missing red's best 4 drop (I know you believe hero is better, which is fine, they are close enough) but hellrider quite a bit better than thundermaw hellkite , siege-gang commander and sarkhan dragonspeaker in agro.
Cheap creatures -> cheap Burn spells are what red does best.
You are missing two top tier burn spells (fireblast + searing blaze) and the number of burn spells you run in your cube is fairly low.
Now I assume you aren't looking to do anything drastic (drastic is lava spike), but my recommendation is
a) get hellrider in there and cut one of your 5 drops
b) add searing blaze and fireblast (without cutting burn spells you currently run)
c) cut prophetic flame speaker if it's in there at all because you expect to use it in agro.
Let me preface this by saying that red aggro is in a very good place indeed in my cube, but I don't absolutely require mono-red aggro to be some sort of artificial powerhouse. Mono-red being so-so is fine, since only 50% of possible decks can be better than average, right?
First off, you are missing red's best 4 drop (I know you believe hero is better, which is fine, they are close enough) but hellrider quite a bit better than thundermaw hellkite , siege-gang commander and sarkhan dragonspeaker in agro.
Yes, but who said anything about running those in aggro? I don't include five drops for aggro decks. Our aggro decks have so many four drops drafted that they don't know what to do with them and some are inevitably left on the side. Red is getting another non-aggro four drop (Pia and Kiran) which is fine.
Cheap creatures -> cheap Burn spells are what red does best.
You are missing two top tier burn spells (fireblast + searing blaze) and the number of burn spells you run in your cube is fairly low.
I don't consider either of those spells top tier. Searing Blaze was always just alright and I'd reinclude any of the basic burn variants over it. Fireblast could come back, though, seeing as I may be expanding to 405. Good call.
They're top-tier if you're pushing mono-red, which was what his suggestions were centered around. For norma R/X decks, they're not as clutch.
This.
There's nothing inherently wrong with having mono-red mid tier, I'm responding to your interest in giving it additional support. Even a buffed chandra (2/3, improved planeswalker side) wouldn't do for heavy red what these spells I'm recommending do. I didn't realize at first you weren't running moxes/lotus etc, in no-fast mana environment red has an advantage over fully-powered. So red is definitely stronger than I first thought when I looked at your red section.
My advice is give searing blaze another try, it's a card that has some inherent variance and it's I'm guessing you've been on the bad side of it. Or weren't playing it with mana bases of 90%+ red sources. (fwiw I do prefer fireblast to it, so if you had to pick one, id choose that).
Improving mono-red comes down to having a greater concentration of higher output burn/mana cost support. You have all the strong cheap red creatures and more than enough concentration of it, but not much burn concentration to follow it up.
Side concept: lavaspike is insane in an all lavaspike deck, but it becomes worse than say char if your deck is all filled with shocks and has 16 lands.
If this isn't your goal, than I misinterpreted your post earlier regarding chandra. Plus, figured there was residual benefit for lurkers reading this.
I got some good cubing in while on vacation last week:
Evolutionary Leap: Ran it in a black green midrange deck with all the right pieces. It was TERRIFYING. Ophiomancer, Shriekmaw (evoke synergy), Deranged Hermit, Skullclamp, ect. Every game I untapped with it I was able to bury my opponent in card advantage. I see this as pretty close to BCS though, so I'd still be very interested in hearing how the ACS works out.
Abbot of Keral Keep: Card was good in a red/white agro deck. Not insane by any stretch but I was always glad to draw it. I cast it about 4 times and got 2 lands, one burn spell, and wasted a card to drop it as a turn 2 beater. Prowess definitely isn't evasion, but at least 50% of the time it attacked as a 3/2. I'm happy with the card and will likely keep it around for a bit.
Disciple of the Blood Rite: Played it as an agro finisher. It was good there. I never managed to assemble a deck where I could abuse the ETB, but I was glad to see it played well in a different archetype. The card is strong!
Despoiler of Souls: Did good work for me in a black/red agro deck. Recurred at least once a game and beat face. Great wrath protection. I was pretty cool on this card when it was spoiled, and experience exceeded my expectations.
I'm putting in all five flipwalkers and Languish. I think people are underestimating Nissa and Chandra. I'm pretty sure Nissa will make the cut. Chandra might get replaced with the new burn spell or Abbot of Keral Keep. Pia and Kiran Nalaar will find a place, but I'm still deciding what to remove. Priest of the Blood Rite warrants testing, but I think people have fixated on the BCS and not the ACS as testing reports here have demonstrated.
You realise that the creature only has to attack to get the land, not 'get through'? Just checking here.
I'm looking forward to Relic Seeker and Harbinger some of the most.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Cubetutor Link
And ya, Nissa is good.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Kytheon: great. Flipped a few times indestructable was huge.
Jace: great. Flipped twice, both times great.
Something of note, stealing the new flipwalkers in creature form isn't as good, and actually limits what you doo with them after you steal them. (Fun interaction)
Talent of the telepath: interesting/good. Cast twice once unmastered just harmonize. 2nd time mastered options were silimgar command, abrupt decay, wheel of fortune. Sounds awesome except he had no targets for decay, all his dudes were etb with more than 3 toughness, and I had 7 cards in hand to his 1. The milling them was relevant for a necromancy though.
Whirler rogue:good only cast once. But have so many options for my next turn he couldn't answer enough things. Fun and flexible.
Scan-clan: ok. Renowned 4/4 times. Only burned him once, probably could have been any 3 drop aggro guy.
Molten vortex:good. Outright stole a game, and locked up another. The extra angle of attack made it better than just another burn spell.
That's all that made in to play.
Small sample but I like this set for cube.
Cube Tutor
We found the overall performance inline with our expectations and also with your report. We were not expecting any high picks from this group of cards.
To us, Languish is clearly superior to Damnation because of its applications with large creatures. In general the color has too much going on to provide heavy support for control. This is partially due to the fact that Black is by far the most archetype oriented color which is dictated by Black's cards being the most color intensive/demanding of all colors.
The other dimension to keep in mind is that virtually every deck relies on creatures which makes Wrath effects more symmetrical and less desirable. The final consideration is the high resiliency of Cube creatures to Wrath effects in general and particularly the ones that come down before the critical turn 4. Other Cubes seem to have tended away from some of these creatures due to other concerns such as casting cost. In our Cube, Moat, Humility, Parallax Wave, Terminus etc. are superior choices to Wrath/Supreme Verdict.
I agree with your assessment regarding the indestructibility although it remains to be seen whether the flip ability seals games where you have the perfect start or whether it is largely window dressing in games you were likely to win anyway (something like the debate swirling around the closer in baseball). I do not think this this card can compare to Mother of Runes and I don't think it can ever be an early pick since it is not a strong enough pull into White aggro. I think it is a mid and later pick. This is mostly second hand opinion because I did not play the card myself yet but that is how it seemed to go for our group.
This card does not have SGC as a comparable for us, because it wants to be used in niche (ie non beats) archetypes. SGC suffered from the fact that he only truly benefitted from random/sporadic synergies with other cards while not fitting the core plan of the red aggro deck(s). Five mana is also significantly more than four in those decks. We're undecided how much additional artifact support K&P requires in the color red (Feldon, Daretti, what have you). If it is too much for 360 then this card won't get a large archetype bonus and will have to make the Cube solely on its power level and despite the fact that it somewhat clashes with what 90% of the color red is oriented toward, especially the current crop of premium 4 drops. To some extent this is a choice in Cube design but there are practical and philosophical sides to the matter.
She fits black's themes and there are enough 3 drops still seeing play even at 360 that it is hard to imagine not playing her. I personally question her abstract power level if she is only being used as a "value" card -- probably fine but likely overrated -- but since Black is defined by archetype in our Cube I will demur on that question and just say that she is a mid pick if you are already on the right deck and a bottom pick otherwise.
Not convinced it is better than Ob Nix. Also not convinced that there is Cube design is a slave to the "need" for a Black 5 drop. I will try to convince our group to put him in so we can confirm with testing results, but in general 5 mana cards get worse as Cubes get tigher, faster, and more synergistic which produces more cohesive decks. You can argue that the Priest goes the opposite direction and gets better in those situations but I don't think so -- most of his best interactions are for random value and most of the cards cited so far are quite marginal at 360 themselves, for the same reason (Imperial Recruiter, Reveillark,.)
Currently not testing
Not testing
I assume the enthusiasm for this card was because it was spoiled as an etb ability. Even then it was fringe until at least 450 in our opinion. Not testing. There is the argument that it is a bear with an interesting ability and potential p/t growth, but this argument reflects a conceptual bias towards building white aggro along "hate bear" lines. That is not the style of deck supported by the stable of white low drops, especially at one mana. It also doesn't mesh well with W/R aggro decks which are more or less "all in".
Agree that this is not an engine card which means that you have to evaluate it as a utility card. It is a difficult case to make. Also encourages playing less creatures which goes heavily against the grain in Cube. We will keep an eye out in case we are wrong about this card.
Agree, hard time imagining the place for this card outside of larger cubes that need more bodies. Can't foresee a deck where this won't serve as filler.
Cards you didn't touch on:
Jace, Whirler Rogue, Harbinger of Tides
Not sure how to size the blue cards up for "standard" cubes because in our Cube we treat Blue the same as other colors rather than gearing it exclusively for control and a super low creature count. Whirler Rogue has some very powerful interactions in particular. We're still mulling whether these cards are 360 or not.
---
I've been happy with Nissa myself so I'm glad to hear that she's getting reasonably good reviews, though perhaps it is due to people's lower expectations. Admittedly I am biased and want her to be good, and ramp gets drafted a lot here so there's that.
The Relic Seeker reviews are making me reconsider... I'm interested to hear more experiences with this guy.
Priest is fine value on its own, and I never evaluate a card based on 'how many times can I blink/bounce/recur this' since most of the time, it won't come off. The 2 life is a major drawback but between the 7 power you just put down and the fact you can use it to chump or sac, I don't see it being an issue in the majority of situations. Being a creature (vs. OB Nix PW) is an advantage in so many ways though that it makes up for being worse in a vacuum.
I'm still very happy to cube Relic Seeker. Very pleased to get more equipment tutoring for a variety of decks, even if it is conditional. It's another two drop that I will (try to) ensure dies before it hits me if I see it on the other side of the table, which makes me change my game plan if I'm in control or midrange. These sorts of cards have traditionally been quite good in our cube though.
Nissa seems to be getting good write-ups and I still like the card. But getting to seven lands is kind of rare for our ramp decks, as a product of a fast environment and lots of creature/enchantment based ramp rather than Cultivate effects, and the fact that the cheat strategies like Tinker and Sneak Attack are generally supplementing those decks. OTOH I'm interested to hear more about Chandra if people are trying her out since heavy/mono-red is something I could bolster with a card or two.
Languish seems like it could actually be better than Damnation since it's a lot more exploitable if you are running a control deck. -4 is a nice number for Wildfire too.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This came up in another thread very recently. Dude, I have no idea what the (cube) world is coming to when Lark isn't a 360 staple. Do most games just end on turn 4 in your meta or something?
How insanely tight are your cube decks where you don't have time to not just get value but INSANE value out of Lark? In any white deck list that isn't purely control, this card has so many applications it's mind boggling. And even if it's not the most powerful card in a vacuum, it represents everything that is wonderful about synergy - combining multiple cards and getting effects that are greater than the sum of the parts.
A cube without this card would feel horribly soulless to me (no offense to those who have actually cut Lark). I think it would have to be so incredibly spike in nature, I don't know if I could enjoy myself.
On the subject of the priest, I put a proxy in my sacrifice deck and it was very solid. Not broken though. So that was positive. I still need to try it in more degenerate scenarios (blink/pod/etc).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But people do throw around 360 staple a lot. I bet there's more than 50 cards in each color people call staple but that would means all cards in the 360 cube can't be cut.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
We'd probably be better off just not using the term "staple" at all truthfully.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Did you even read my post? I do run 'Lark, and it's very good. However, I refuse to delude myself that 'Lark offers brilliant value every single time. It's well behind the curve as a 5 mana 4/3 flier, and has to die to get you value beyond that, and you have to have available targets in the graveyard, which are also helpful for whatever game-state is going on currently. Now each of these conditions is usually not hard to fill, but there are certainly occasions where the card has not earned its keep. While we usually get good-to-great value out of it, its high variance and inconsistency means I could totally understand some groups not running it in favour of something else, which was my original point. Even though it's a good card, I think it's one of the more overrated cards in the cube.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Edit: Perhaps the term 'staple' needs to be defined. I always just thought a staple was a card that was accepted by the vast majority of cubers as powerful and easy includes, within their given restrictions (I assume that pauper/peasant cubes have their staples too, could be dead wrong). I consider Armageddon, Goblin Guide and Wurmcoil to be staples and they aren't cards that make every deck (though Wurmcoil almost does lol).
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm very skeptical how good chandra is in mono-red in a small cube. Every angle I evaluate her at she fails. Average Damage per turn, vulnerable to removal, non-guarnteed damage. In a slow format she seems great as the damage can really add up, but I don't see it in a small cube.
Glancing at your list, even a strong 3 drop creature would be no where close to the thing I'd change to improve red.
I expect red to be only so-so in your cube actually. I'm sure versatility was one of the justifications you've used for your red composition, but each time you put in a more versatile spell that is merely "playable" in heavy-red agro , the more you hurt the archetype.
First off, you are missing red's best 4 drop (I know you believe hero is better, which is fine, they are close enough) but hellrider quite a bit better than thundermaw hellkite , siege-gang commander and sarkhan dragonspeaker in agro.
Cheap creatures -> cheap Burn spells are what red does best.
You are missing two top tier burn spells (fireblast + searing blaze) and the number of burn spells you run in your cube is fairly low.
Now I assume you aren't looking to do anything drastic (drastic is lava spike), but my recommendation is
a) get hellrider in there and cut one of your 5 drops
b) add searing blaze and fireblast (without cutting burn spells you currently run)
c) cut prophetic flame speaker if it's in there at all because you expect to use it in agro.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Yes, but who said anything about running those in aggro? I don't include five drops for aggro decks. Our aggro decks have so many four drops drafted that they don't know what to do with them and some are inevitably left on the side. Red is getting another non-aggro four drop (Pia and Kiran) which is fine.
I don't consider either of those spells top tier. Searing Blaze was always just alright and I'd reinclude any of the basic burn variants over it. Fireblast could come back, though, seeing as I may be expanding to 405. Good call.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
They're top-tier if you're pushing mono-red, which was what his suggestions were centered around. For norma R/X decks, they're not as clutch.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This.
There's nothing inherently wrong with having mono-red mid tier, I'm responding to your interest in giving it additional support. Even a buffed chandra (2/3, improved planeswalker side) wouldn't do for heavy red what these spells I'm recommending do. I didn't realize at first you weren't running moxes/lotus etc, in no-fast mana environment red has an advantage over fully-powered. So red is definitely stronger than I first thought when I looked at your red section.
My advice is give searing blaze another try, it's a card that has some inherent variance and it's I'm guessing you've been on the bad side of it. Or weren't playing it with mana bases of 90%+ red sources. (fwiw I do prefer fireblast to it, so if you had to pick one, id choose that).
Improving mono-red comes down to having a greater concentration of higher output burn/mana cost support. You have all the strong cheap red creatures and more than enough concentration of it, but not much burn concentration to follow it up.
Side concept: lavaspike is insane in an all lavaspike deck, but it becomes worse than say char if your deck is all filled with shocks and has 16 lands.
If this isn't your goal, than I misinterpreted your post earlier regarding chandra. Plus, figured there was residual benefit for lurkers reading this.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Evolutionary Leap: Ran it in a black green midrange deck with all the right pieces. It was TERRIFYING. Ophiomancer, Shriekmaw (evoke synergy), Deranged Hermit, Skullclamp, ect. Every game I untapped with it I was able to bury my opponent in card advantage. I see this as pretty close to BCS though, so I'd still be very interested in hearing how the ACS works out.
Abbot of Keral Keep: Card was good in a red/white agro deck. Not insane by any stretch but I was always glad to draw it. I cast it about 4 times and got 2 lands, one burn spell, and wasted a card to drop it as a turn 2 beater. Prowess definitely isn't evasion, but at least 50% of the time it attacked as a 3/2. I'm happy with the card and will likely keep it around for a bit.
Disciple of the Blood Rite: Played it as an agro finisher. It was good there. I never managed to assemble a deck where I could abuse the ETB, but I was glad to see it played well in a different archetype. The card is strong!
Despoiler of Souls: Did good work for me in a black/red agro deck. Recurred at least once a game and beat face. Great wrath protection. I was pretty cool on this card when it was spoiled, and experience exceeded my expectations.
That's all for now!
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420