I have a 465 unpowered cube. I was thinking of adding Tinker into the cube, however I was wondering if by doing so, I would be forced to add the typical win-cons like Darksteel Colossus or Sphinx of the Steel Wind into the cube as well. My thinking is that if I add Tinker as an archetype in my cube, I'd try to make it as fair as possible and make even the earliest-cast Tinkers as interactive as possible.
I feel that Sphinx of the Steel Wind is uninteractive because when it enters the battlefield early, it pretty much shuts your opponent down by virtue of it having lifelink, vigilance and protection.
The reason I was thinking of doing it this way is that my cube in general is not very powerful. I don't want to share the whole list, but let's just say that cards like Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine are too powerful for my cube in it's current version.
What are your thoughts on this? Should I improve the overall power of my cube before adding Tinker? Is Tinker as an archetype just not good enough if it's not all-out with the biggest of win-cons? Is making fundamentally unfair archetypes more fair simply hypocritical?
I also want to ask what are the usual cards that enable Tinker-type archetypes. Goblin Welder? Argivian Restoration? And are there any good non-creature artifact win-cons?
Frankly, it doesn't sound like your cube is at a power level where you really want Tinker. The more fair/interactive targets are stuff like Wurmcoil, Battlesphere, maybe Sundering Titan (Not very interactive vs multicolor, unless they just happen to have a lot of non-typed non basics). I guess Duplicantcould be okay.As far as noncreatures go Memory Jar is a reasonable one, but it doesn't sound you would necessarily want Memory Jar in your cube. Gilded Lotus can sometimes be okay, or batterskull, and Staff of Nin might be worth experimenting with.
The cards which enable Tinker are mana rocks, very simply. Obviously you don't have moxen, and I'm guessing you also pass on the Sol Ring/Grim Monolith type stuff. In that case I can't seriously recommend Tinker unless you have at least 6 signets, preferably with enough other mana rocks to get your count to at least 15.
Edit: If you aren't already running him, Daretti is a fun Tinker variant at a more interactive power level, and he can do some work even if you fail to pick up any huge artifacts.
I have the full cycle of signets and some miscellaneous mana rocks to make a total of around 17. I was wondering if there were cards similar to Tinker in effect, like how reanimator has redundancy in the form of Reanimate, Animate Dead, Exhume, Necromancy, etc...
If you don't even run Grave Titan for being too strong though, I'm not sure that you want Tinker at all. It just seems like that kind of effect is not what your cube is about. Do you have a reanimator archetype? If so, what are the usual targets? It might be good to post a link to your cube for the sake of the discussion.
Edit: My cube is linked in my sig, but for context it's probably in between the power level of your cube and the "typical" unpowered cube. It's also undergoing some changes at the moment, so the list isn't 100% up to date, but it's getting there.
I think you can make value tinker a thing. Steel Hellkite is a good suggestion. It's a card with a very strong effect but you need to wait a full turn AND it has to connect. That's still pretty scary to face on turn 3 but it's not going to cause scoops. You can get hit once by it and still come back and win, especially early in the game where you have less to lose to the destroy effect.
Wurmcoil is better than grave titan, so if you are not running that (which I agree with), the engine does not belong in your list either. Myr Battleshere is also walking a fine line on power level, but if you have a lot of sweeper effects you can mitigate it somewhat. I don't personally run it anymore as battleshere on T3 is usually GG.
Tinkering for Gilded Lotus is a fine play in a lower powered environment, especially nice when you sacrifice something like perilous myr to get it.
The hard part will be having enough things worth tinkering for (which is a two for one technically) and getting enough value that it's worth the card disadvantage while keeping it from being totally degenerate. So you'll have to play with it, but it can be done.
Playing Tinker means taking on a lot of risk, because it means running a card that will do absolutely nothing if you don't have an artifact in play already, and you're 2-for-1ing yourself when you cast it, so the reward really needs to be worth it for the Tinker player with targets that won't mean a total blowout because they die to Doom Blade or Manic Vandal without giving any value whatsoever. If I drafted Tinker, I don't think I'd even play it if the best targets for it in my draft pool were Precursor Golem, Steel Hellkite, or Sharding Sphinx (although Myr Battlesphere is another matter).
I added Tinker to my cube when the power level was much lower than it is now, and ran Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Battle Ball, and Inkwell Leviathan as my primary Tinker targets. It was really popular, and the Tinker archetype won it's share of matches but has never been a dominant archetype.
As for Tinker targets worth playing, I wouldn't bother with Darksteel Colossus or Blightsteel Colossus because they can't be reanimated. I like Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but if you're not comfortable with it I'd recommend Batterskull, Scuttling Doom Engine, and Sundering Titan in addition to the ones from my initial Tinker package. If you do end up running Tinker, make sure you also have plenty of mana rocks. I recommend the full cycle of Signets, but there are plenty of other good choices.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
If you are looking for interactive games of magic, tinker -> sphinx/blightsteel is one of the last things I would do. Even myr battlesphere is borderline unwinnable for many decks.
If you are trying to make it fair you would need to tinker with your finishers and see how you liked the effect.
Battlesphere as the "premium" target maybe too strong. As a hardcasting target it's 90-95% as strong as wurmcoil/grave titan, but its even more powerful as a tinker target.
, scuttling doom engine, steel hellkite, bosh-iron golemn, batterskull, maybe memory jar for value?
If your signeting into tinker (turn 3 tinker) it will likely need to tinker for something with SOME sort of stabalizing effect tho, or it won't be worth it.
Thanks for the input guys. Certainly, testing will help a lot with my cube but I am yet to physically touch it since I lent it to be taken care of by a friend while I was out of the country for 10 months.
I believe there are some common characteristics among the good Tinker creature targets:
1. Has some way to evade removal.
2. Has a strong ETB or LTB effect.
Either 1, or 2, or both.
With this said, I think the best non-ridiculous targets would be cards like Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Scuttling Doom Engine, etc.
I'd like to keep Myr Battlesphere in my cube because I think it makes a good ramp target and overall top-end finisher. It certainly seems to have the most potential to insta-win, further emphasised by everyone's opinion of the card. Even so, it seems to be pretty manageable by either killing the main battlesphere or removing the tokens at once. I haven't tested very much with it, but what does everyone else think of this logic?
What does everyone think of Sundering Titan? Is removing almost all of the opponent's lands (decently likely they are playing multicolor decks) on turn 3 too uninteractive?
What about non-creature targets? I think I will try having Staff of Nin and Memory Jar in the cube. Does anyone else have any more ideas?
For me the biggest flaw with Sundering Titan is that it has both an ETB effect and an LTB effect that is not a "dies" trigger. This means that a blue player can't try to return it to your hand and counter it later, and white player can't exile it to avoid the trigger. If it hits the table on turn 3 or 4 the number of options for dealing with it without sacrificing all your lands are very limited. God forbid you and your opponent are playing mostly the same colors. My playgroup definitely felt like it crossed the line into unfun.
I don't personally believe it's unfair in a "normal" cube, but I think it would be out of place in yours.
Battlesphere is the best strong, but still managable tinker target. It dies to doomblade, Manic vandal, but leaves behind 4 1/1s, so its still ok even in the worst case scenario, whereas its BCS is still managable, huge blockable beater with a hellrider trigger essentially.
Sundering Titan can be pretty oppressive, or it can hurt you as much as your opponent. It really depends. The fact that it doesn't have evasion also means it can be chumped which gives your opponent time to recover. T3 Sundering Titan is not a guaranteed win.
Battleshere I think is slightly too efficient for an artifact, which is why I don't run it. But I can see it being acceptable in most lists as a relatively "fair" tinker target.
Wurmcoil Engine though is bogus. You need a full power max list to run that without having it warp your meta. Not just in tinker but any midrange or control deck, it's a card you automatically run because it instantly makes your deck better no matter what you are playing.
Eh, its not that great. Its a really powerful card, but I'd run it in a modern only cube with no reservations. I mean, I wouldn't even rank it as the best 6 drop. Grave titan takes that spot for me.
Sundering titan is 100% definitely a better tinker target than Wurmcoil. That card is stupid good, especially if your drafters like greedy manabases. It is definitely the most feel bad tinker target. Blightsteel is stupid, but at least you can still pretend to put up a defense with you spells.
You are running a fully powered cube though. Your meta is night and day different from unpowered metas, especially any running a less than power max list. Wurmcoil slots into any deck that gets to 6 mana, instantly makes those decks better and it derails aggressive strategies that can't win before T6. You need an exile effect or you just lose to it.
Sundering Titan is far less universally abusable due to the cost and even in the BCS it doesn't do what Wurmcoil does to tempo based decks. You can race Sundering Titan. You can't race Wurmcoil. In fact, the decks Sundering Titan hurts the most are durdle midrange decks, which run rampant in my meta. So I actually like running that card. I'm perfectly happy when I see NoDirectionGoodStuff.dec scoop.
Wurmcoil is better than the competition because it can be cast more often. But it's not as oppressive as the other targets, and I've never played a cube environment of any kind where it was close to needing to be banned.
I'd recommend against Tinker in an unpowered cube, as Tinker is basically a "power" card in cube. The closest thing to fair but playable tinker targets are probably Wurmcoil Engine and Myr Battlesphere.
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Some "fairer" win-cons I thought of were Precursor Golem, Sharding Sphinx and Myr Battlesphere.
I feel that Sphinx of the Steel Wind is uninteractive because when it enters the battlefield early, it pretty much shuts your opponent down by virtue of it having lifelink, vigilance and protection.
The reason I was thinking of doing it this way is that my cube in general is not very powerful. I don't want to share the whole list, but let's just say that cards like Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine are too powerful for my cube in it's current version.
What are your thoughts on this? Should I improve the overall power of my cube before adding Tinker? Is Tinker as an archetype just not good enough if it's not all-out with the biggest of win-cons? Is making fundamentally unfair archetypes more fair simply hypocritical?
I also want to ask what are the usual cards that enable Tinker-type archetypes. Goblin Welder? Argivian Restoration? And are there any good non-creature artifact win-cons?
The cards which enable Tinker are mana rocks, very simply. Obviously you don't have moxen, and I'm guessing you also pass on the Sol Ring/Grim Monolith type stuff. In that case I can't seriously recommend Tinker unless you have at least 6 signets, preferably with enough other mana rocks to get your count to at least 15.
Edit: If you aren't already running him, Daretti is a fun Tinker variant at a more interactive power level, and he can do some work even if you fail to pick up any huge artifacts.
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Mindslaver is another artifact win-con, especially with Academy Ruins, but it doesn't sound like your cube would want a lock like that.
I run Tinker with Myr Battlesphere, Bosh, Iron Golem, Æther Searcher and Steel Hellkite. I do also run Wurmcoil Engine. I don't have any of the if-you-see-me-turn-2-you-probably-just-lose guys like Sundering Titan and Blightsteel Colossus.
If you don't even run Grave Titan for being too strong though, I'm not sure that you want Tinker at all. It just seems like that kind of effect is not what your cube is about. Do you have a reanimator archetype? If so, what are the usual targets? It might be good to post a link to your cube for the sake of the discussion.
Edit: My cube is linked in my sig, but for context it's probably in between the power level of your cube and the "typical" unpowered cube. It's also undergoing some changes at the moment, so the list isn't 100% up to date, but it's getting there.
Wurmcoil is better than grave titan, so if you are not running that (which I agree with), the engine does not belong in your list either. Myr Battleshere is also walking a fine line on power level, but if you have a lot of sweeper effects you can mitigate it somewhat. I don't personally run it anymore as battleshere on T3 is usually GG.
Tinkering for Gilded Lotus is a fine play in a lower powered environment, especially nice when you sacrifice something like perilous myr to get it.
The hard part will be having enough things worth tinkering for (which is a two for one technically) and getting enough value that it's worth the card disadvantage while keeping it from being totally degenerate. So you'll have to play with it, but it can be done.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I added Tinker to my cube when the power level was much lower than it is now, and ran Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Battle Ball, and Inkwell Leviathan as my primary Tinker targets. It was really popular, and the Tinker archetype won it's share of matches but has never been a dominant archetype.
As for Tinker targets worth playing, I wouldn't bother with Darksteel Colossus or Blightsteel Colossus because they can't be reanimated. I like Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but if you're not comfortable with it I'd recommend Batterskull, Scuttling Doom Engine, and Sundering Titan in addition to the ones from my initial Tinker package. If you do end up running Tinker, make sure you also have plenty of mana rocks. I recommend the full cycle of Signets, but there are plenty of other good choices.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
If you are trying to make it fair you would need to tinker with your finishers and see how you liked the effect.
Battlesphere as the "premium" target maybe too strong. As a hardcasting target it's 90-95% as strong as wurmcoil/grave titan, but its even more powerful as a tinker target.
, scuttling doom engine, steel hellkite, bosh-iron golemn, batterskull, maybe memory jar for value?
If your signeting into tinker (turn 3 tinker) it will likely need to tinker for something with SOME sort of stabalizing effect tho, or it won't be worth it.
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I believe there are some common characteristics among the good Tinker creature targets:
1. Has some way to evade removal.
2. Has a strong ETB or LTB effect.
Either 1, or 2, or both.
With this said, I think the best non-ridiculous targets would be cards like Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Scuttling Doom Engine, etc.
I'd like to keep Myr Battlesphere in my cube because I think it makes a good ramp target and overall top-end finisher. It certainly seems to have the most potential to insta-win, further emphasised by everyone's opinion of the card. Even so, it seems to be pretty manageable by either killing the main battlesphere or removing the tokens at once. I haven't tested very much with it, but what does everyone else think of this logic?
What does everyone think of Sundering Titan? Is removing almost all of the opponent's lands (decently likely they are playing multicolor decks) on turn 3 too uninteractive?
What about non-creature targets? I think I will try having Staff of Nin and Memory Jar in the cube. Does anyone else have any more ideas?
I don't personally believe it's unfair in a "normal" cube, but I think it would be out of place in yours.
thats my cube
Battleshere I think is slightly too efficient for an artifact, which is why I don't run it. But I can see it being acceptable in most lists as a relatively "fair" tinker target.
Wurmcoil Engine though is bogus. You need a full power max list to run that without having it warp your meta. Not just in tinker but any midrange or control deck, it's a card you automatically run because it instantly makes your deck better no matter what you are playing.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Sundering titan is 100% definitely a better tinker target than Wurmcoil. That card is stupid good, especially if your drafters like greedy manabases. It is definitely the most feel bad tinker target. Blightsteel is stupid, but at least you can still pretend to put up a defense with you spells.
thats my cube
Sundering Titan is far less universally abusable due to the cost and even in the BCS it doesn't do what Wurmcoil does to tempo based decks. You can race Sundering Titan. You can't race Wurmcoil. In fact, the decks Sundering Titan hurts the most are durdle midrange decks, which run rampant in my meta. So I actually like running that card. I'm perfectly happy when I see NoDirectionGoodStuff.dec scoop.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
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