To anyone saying that the new Ulamog is a "one hit kill": This will rarely be the case if he is cheated out in the early turns. He is more a two hit kill in those cases. Exiling 20 cards with the first attack means that the opponent has a total of 12-13 turns to win the game, minus 1 for each fetch or extra card draw. So, a deck that doesn't have or need too much card draw still has around 10 turns to win after a single Ulamog attack. For non-control decks, that should be enough time.
That's a good point, but the one hit kill statement is true for all the times that he's cheated out or played mid game. Also, from my experience, a turn one or two Fatty McFatterson (no matter the flavor) tends to be scoop central if they don't immediately have an answer.
I am actually a bit wary of this. Reanimating him early might feel really bad for opponents who are playing a fair deck.
I feel like this is, again, probably true for any fatty that's reanimated early. If your group gets the feel bads over a turn two fatty, then maybe that's not an archetype that should be pushed. You might also rethink the type of finishers and big guys you're including.
The question now is: Run him in addition to or instead of the old Ulamog? I think at 600 cards, I can get away with 3 Eldrazi Titans (2 Ulamog and 1 Kozilek).
I feel the same way, although I don't really know what else I would cut to make room for another big finisher like this. I do think this one is better than the original Ulamog, I just don't know if a like for like swap is correct.
Holy cow! Reanimateable Eldrazi Titan! Also, double Vindicate is a pretty good pay-off for ramp decks that actually hardcast him.
To anyone saying that the new Ulamog is a "one hit kill": This will rarely be the case if he is cheated out in the early turns. He is more a two hit kill in those cases. Exiling 20 cards with the first attack means that the opponent has a total of 12-13 turns to win the game, minus 1 for each fetch or extra card draw. So, a deck that doesn't have or need too much card draw still has around 10 turns to win after a single Ulamog attack. For non-control decks, that should be enough time.
Still, even if he needs two attacks to kill, a turn 2 or 3 Ulamog is really, really scary and almost impossible to straight up race. He basically asks: Do you have a card that gets rid of him for 3 mana or less?
I am actually a bit wary of this. Reanimating him early might feel really bad for opponents who are playing a fair deck. I might have preferred him if he exiled only 10 cards with each attack, rather than 20. I am still going to test him though, to see how much of a problem this really is. The question now is: Run him in addition to or instead of the old Ulamog? I think at 600 cards, I can get away with 3 Eldrazi Titans (2 Ulamog and 1 Kozilek).
The two hit kill is why I was going to argue he's worse (prior to realizing u can reanimate him).
Eldrazi in my cube get sneak attacked/show and tell/eureka/through the breached muchhhhhhhh more often than channel/hard cast.
If he only gets off one attack he doesn't do much, whereas one attack from the other eldrazi were devastating. Two attacks should win the game from any eldrazi.
Obviously insane - probably a little Too insane for us. My playgroup made me cut Sphinx of the Steel Wind for being too "uninteractive" after all. Then again, we're picking up new players this week, so maybe if they're more into cheaty decks we can give it a try...
Sphinx is selectively much less interactive than ulamog 2.0
Vs Sphinx Green is drawing to craterhoof only, and Red has a 1 turn clock to burn out past it.
This guy takes 3 turn to end the game, blocks 1 creature without gaining life and has to be tapped to attack.
Plus green can target it with Song of the dryads.
To anyone saying that the new Ulamog is a "one hit kill": This will rarely be the case if he is cheated out in the early turns. He is more a two hit kill in those cases. Exiling 20 cards with the first attack means that the opponent has a total of 12-13 turns to win the game, minus 1 for each fetch or extra card draw. So, a deck that doesn't have or need too much card draw still has around 10 turns to win after a single Ulamog attack. For non-control decks, that should be enough time.
While I originally agreed with the idea of a two-turn clock, we've never gotten a card that mills so much in one go. We can't evaluate it on the same basis as other millers because removing 20 cards out of the 30 or so you'll have after reanimation, unlike other millers, will affect the chances of drawing an answer and it will affect the clock (i.e. the common idea that a one-shot mill effect is useless). In practical terms, this also limits your opponent to answers they already have in hand, which is even more restrictive when dealing with indestructible. On top of that, it creates a kind of delayed victory condition, where your opponent will just die after a few turns even after pulling an answer. A hard cast turns the game around and just straight wins the turn after.
For ten mana, this is about on par for what I expected, i.e. as close as possible to straight-up winning the game when you cast it
To anyone saying that the new Ulamog is a "one hit kill": This will rarely be the case if he is cheated out in the early turns. He is more a two hit kill in those cases. Exiling 20 cards with the first attack means that the opponent has a total of 12-13 turns to win the game, minus 1 for each fetch or extra card draw. So, a deck that doesn't have or need too much card draw still has around 10 turns to win after a single Ulamog attack. For non-control decks, that should be enough time.
While I originally agreed with the idea of a two-turn clock, we've never gotten a card that mills so much in one go. We can't evaluate it on the same basis as other millers because removing 20 cards out of the 30 or so you'll have after reanimation, unlike other millers, will affect the chances of drawing an answer and it will affect the clock (i.e. the common idea that a one-shot mill effect is useless). In practical terms, this also limits your opponent to answers they already have in hand, which is even more restrictive when dealing with indestructible. On top of that, it creates a kind of delayed victory condition, where your opponent will just die after a few turns even after pulling an answer. A hard cast turns the game around and just straight wins the turn after.
For ten mana, this is about on par for what I expected, i.e. as close as possible to straight-up winning the game when you cast it
You are right it the first 20 cards exile does have an effect on the game state and can potentially end the game by itself down the road.
How likely that true is very deck dependent.
Most decks cheating the eldrazi will be using a lot of resources to get the eldrazi into play (or dig through the deck to be able to do so). After cheating the eldrazi , it may take a while to reassemble another haymaker.. Most opposing decks can deal 20 damage very quickly if not facing proper resistance (which most cheaty decks cannot provide since they dedicate so many resources to the haymakers). 7+ turns is wayyyyy more than enough for anything but a control deck.
Your logic about it effecting the likelyhood of drawing an answer only applies to decks with tutors or library manipulation effects, cold top decking, milling has no effect on the % of drawing an answer. Even if it mills you to your last card.
This is a powered cube card, the reanimation ability makes it too powerful for any kind of cube.
Easily the most realistic eldrazi in this format. The question isn't whether or not I include it but rather how many 8+ drops should I support at 540.
Really cool that it's reanimateable. What I don't like about the other Eldrazi is that they only go into the cheat-into-play ans super-ramp decks. Artifacts can also be tinkered, green fatties natural ordered, and every other creature can be reanimated. This is perfect for cheating, ramping and reanimating which makes me happy. For a card that costs 10 mana, it's okay that it usually wins you the game if you can get it into play. Griselbrand didn't make reanimation-decks too string, and neither do I think the new Ulamog will.
Not sure which Eldrazi to cut for it. Emrakul is the most narrow, but also the coolest. Probably Kozilek.
I like it, but wonder if our cube needs it. We have fatties in most colours, good artifact finishers and Karn en Ugin for ramp and Eureka decks. Living the dream with Channeling this is nice, but is it better then Ugin? Is reanimating this better then getting Griselbrand out of the grave?
People are complaining about being a huge clock, but guys come on it costs 10 mana! What do you expect? It has to be broken to be playable at all. Compare it to cheaper finishers (Inferno Titan, Woodfall Primus or Griselbrand). These are quite a bit cheaper and will most of the time win you the game too.
Complaining that it mills for 20 is weird, as there would be a lot less complaining if this card did damage instead. The end result is the same, namely you lose. It just seems to be a psychological dislike from 'losing' cards.
The game is basically over when any Eldrazi swings a second time. If anything, this one is less of a feel bad card because if you answer it after the first swing, you can still recover and win. Against annihilator 4, you really can't.
I'm very confused at the "too op" or too opressive comments. Unless you are cutting about a dozen+ cards for the same reason.
I love ulamog 2.0 because of it's versatility relative to the other eldrazi, but he's not a power level above them.
As a hardcasted target, he's the best by far for it's cost, but as a cheat target, no..
If he's show and tell or reanimated,
White has a million ways to answer him, blue can clone/bounce/control magic, black has edicts, red/green can race.
As a reanimation target, I wouldn't say he's any/much stronger than Inferno titan, grave titan, wurmcoil engine, myr battlesphere, dragonlord atarka.. Definitely not elesh norn or griselbrand. He's more resistant to black removal than most of the creatures I listed, ends the game a turn faster, but on the flip side, he provides very little stabilization vs opposing pressure.
Good points all around about the "unfair" factor. In fact, there are MANY situations I'd rather face down Ulamog 2.0 than Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. I don't really have a super ramp package yet so I don't run any of the other Eldrazi, but I will test this guy out as he can be reanimated.
I don't think very many people here are complaining about Ulamog, rather just voicing that he is a very powerful creature that may our may not fit well into ones cube. Personally, I love his versatility. Since I stopped capping the power level of my cube I welcome as many uber-crazy spells and creatures as possible. I can't wait to see some of the shenanigans Ulamog 2.0 will create.
Quick rules question. If you clone Ulamog do you get the double vindicate?
I don't think very many people here are complaining about Ulamog, rather just voicing that he is a very powerful creature that may our may not fit well into ones cube. Personally, I love his versatility. Since I stopped capping the power level of my cube I welcome as many uber-crazy spells and creatures as possible. I can't wait to see some of the shenanigans Ulamog 2.0 will create.
Quick rules question. If you clone Ulamog do you get the double vindicate?
No, it's an on-cast effect, not a ETB effect. It's like cloning a creature with cascade.
I'm glad to see this card print. I think it could easily replace Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. He trades Annihilator for protection, still get to bring value while you're casting it, win the game faster and finally provide to an Eldrazi the possibility of being reanimated.
His attack trigger could seems OP at first, but much like Sword of Body and Mind, I think it perfectly has a place in a power cube. I also like the fact that he breaks combo deck like Storm in one hit because he takes out all the combo pieces his pilot need. Other decks needed a way to sometimes break those kind of strategies and there it is. Sneak versus Storm match-up with this guy in would be very interesting. Same thing for Fast-Ramp versus Sneak.
Plus, like other already mention, it's sweet that he can be played in a lot of decks, like fast-ramp, reanimation and all sort of cheat.
I'm currently running Karn, Ugin, Emrakul, Kozilek, and ulamog in 360, I think I'm going to be cutting Emrakul and Kozilek for New Ulamog.
Why are you cutting 2 cards to make room for one? Just cut Emrakul and have a 10 drop and a 11 drop.
5 seemed like too much anyway, I just ran all 3 titans due to following a cycle
I think I'd cut Ulamog 1.0 before I'd cut Kozilek. 10 is much easier to achieve than 11, and the draw ability is pretty difficult to overcome even if Kozilek gets dealt with.
That's a good point, but the one hit kill statement is true for all the times that he's cheated out or played mid game. Also, from my experience, a turn one or two Fatty McFatterson (no matter the flavor) tends to be scoop central if they don't immediately have an answer.
I feel like this is, again, probably true for any fatty that's reanimated early. If your group gets the feel bads over a turn two fatty, then maybe that's not an archetype that should be pushed. You might also rethink the type of finishers and big guys you're including.
I feel the same way, although I don't really know what else I would cut to make room for another big finisher like this. I do think this one is better than the original Ulamog, I just don't know if a like for like swap is correct.
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The two hit kill is why I was going to argue he's worse (prior to realizing u can reanimate him).
Eldrazi in my cube get sneak attacked/show and tell/eureka/through the breached muchhhhhhhh more often than channel/hard cast.
If he only gets off one attack he doesn't do much, whereas one attack from the other eldrazi were devastating. Two attacks should win the game from any eldrazi.
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Vs Sphinx Green is drawing to craterhoof only, and Red has a 1 turn clock to burn out past it.
This guy takes 3 turn to end the game, blocks 1 creature without gaining life and has to be tapped to attack.
Plus green can target it with Song of the dryads.
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While I originally agreed with the idea of a two-turn clock, we've never gotten a card that mills so much in one go. We can't evaluate it on the same basis as other millers because removing 20 cards out of the 30 or so you'll have after reanimation, unlike other millers, will affect the chances of drawing an answer and it will affect the clock (i.e. the common idea that a one-shot mill effect is useless). In practical terms, this also limits your opponent to answers they already have in hand, which is even more restrictive when dealing with indestructible. On top of that, it creates a kind of delayed victory condition, where your opponent will just die after a few turns even after pulling an answer. A hard cast turns the game around and just straight wins the turn after.
For ten mana, this is about on par for what I expected, i.e. as close as possible to straight-up winning the game when you cast it
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You are right it the first 20 cards exile does have an effect on the game state and can potentially end the game by itself down the road.
How likely that true is very deck dependent.
Most decks cheating the eldrazi will be using a lot of resources to get the eldrazi into play (or dig through the deck to be able to do so). After cheating the eldrazi , it may take a while to reassemble another haymaker.. Most opposing decks can deal 20 damage very quickly if not facing proper resistance (which most cheaty decks cannot provide since they dedicate so many resources to the haymakers). 7+ turns is wayyyyy more than enough for anything but a control deck.
Your logic about it effecting the likelyhood of drawing an answer only applies to decks with tutors or library manipulation effects, cold top decking, milling has no effect on the % of drawing an answer. Even if it mills you to your last card.
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Easily the most realistic eldrazi in this format. The question isn't whether or not I include it but rather how many 8+ drops should I support at 540.
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Why are you cutting 2 cards to make room for one? Just cut Emrakul and have a 10 drop and a 11 drop.
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I just want to see the other ones now, if we're lucky enough to get them both in BFZ. Is Emrakul gonna slice 30 off the top?
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Not sure which Eldrazi to cut for it. Emrakul is the most narrow, but also the coolest. Probably Kozilek.
People are complaining about being a huge clock, but guys come on it costs 10 mana! What do you expect? It has to be broken to be playable at all. Compare it to cheaper finishers (Inferno Titan, Woodfall Primus or Griselbrand). These are quite a bit cheaper and will most of the time win you the game too.
Complaining that it mills for 20 is weird, as there would be a lot less complaining if this card did damage instead. The end result is the same, namely you lose. It just seems to be a psychological dislike from 'losing' cards.
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I love ulamog 2.0 because of it's versatility relative to the other eldrazi, but he's not a power level above them.
As a hardcasted target, he's the best by far for it's cost, but as a cheat target, no..
If he's show and tell or reanimated,
White has a million ways to answer him, blue can clone/bounce/control magic, black has edicts, red/green can race.
As a reanimation target, I wouldn't say he's any/much stronger than Inferno titan, grave titan, wurmcoil engine, myr battlesphere, dragonlord atarka.. Definitely not elesh norn or griselbrand. He's more resistant to black removal than most of the creatures I listed, ends the game a turn faster, but on the flip side, he provides very little stabilization vs opposing pressure.
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Quick rules question. If you clone Ulamog do you get the double vindicate?
No, it's an on-cast effect, not a ETB effect. It's like cloning a creature with cascade.
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His attack trigger could seems OP at first, but much like Sword of Body and Mind, I think it perfectly has a place in a power cube. I also like the fact that he breaks combo deck like Storm in one hit because he takes out all the combo pieces his pilot need. Other decks needed a way to sometimes break those kind of strategies and there it is. Sneak versus Storm match-up with this guy in would be very interesting. Same thing for Fast-Ramp versus Sneak.
Plus, like other already mention, it's sweet that he can be played in a lot of decks, like fast-ramp, reanimation and all sort of cheat.
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5 seemed like too much anyway, I just ran all 3 titans due to following a cycle
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I think I'd cut Ulamog 1.0 before I'd cut Kozilek. 10 is much easier to achieve than 11, and the draw ability is pretty difficult to overcome even if Kozilek gets dealt with.
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