Are the full art shocks and fetches going to be available in regular and foil or just foil? I'd love to pick them up for my cube but foiling is not really my thing anymore.
To my knowledge they are only available in the Foil slot at the "Special" rarity, so $$$$.
*My opinion unrelated to above.
I don't understand the hate for the new full art lands. They look very cool and I would assume people would be happy with at least getting some sort of reprint. I will be getting all 20 of the shock/fetch sets, unless the polluted delta is worse than the ONS.
I appreciate that they print new fetchable duals, but I don't think these will be good enough for our 540 cube, running already duals, fetches, shocks, painlands, and allied manlands. Enemy manlands would be *very* welcome though.
I like the art on the full-art versions. Only the border looks a bit irritating, but I always felt at first this way when they redesigned the border and then tend to like it after a while.
Unsure how good these are in our cube. We run two sets of fetches, normal ones and the mirage version. The Mirage fetches have been decent to good so far. They are always played, but aggro likes them a less.
These fetchable duals up the power of the fetches, but they can end up being too slow for a lot of decks. Maybe we will only play part of the cycle, in those combinations where the other options are not that great.
Man, I don't get the lack of love for these. Especially in controllish colors, these are great. But just being fetchable is such a huge deal. These are the 4th cycle for me behind Fetches/ABU/Shocks.
These are really bad in non-blue colors IMO. After dual / shock / fetch, UW and UB has the Mirage fetches and WWK manlands, so I would probably rank these as the 6th best lands in those guilds. I'd probably play the UR / UG ones assuming they complete the cycle and would probably rank those at about the 4th or 5th best option for those guilds because they don't have a lot going for them.
These are really bad in non-blue colors IMO. After dual / shock / fetch, UW and UB has the Mirage fetches and WWK manlands, so I would probably rank these as the 6th best lands in those guilds. I'd probably play the UR / UG ones assuming they complete the cycle and would probably rank those at about the 4th or 5th best option for those guilds because they don't have a lot going for them.
Surely these are better than the mirage fetches? Hell, I think I'd put the scry lands and buddy lands above the mirage fetches in slower colors. Maybe even the tri lands.
In UW / UB I rank the Mirage fetches as the 5th best land cycle right behind the WWK manlands. Being able to fetch for duals is important, not to mention it fuels Delve, thins your deck out, is recurrable with Crucible / Sun Titan / Loam, etc.
Awesome to see another fetchable dual land, but I think that in a 3-colors cube deck, those lands will be pretty bad. At least, the temples will get you to scry 1 and Mirage ones are better because they can fetch for a lot of colors with the right shocks or duals. Those lag lands will almost ETB tapped turn 3-4 and always will on turn 1-2. That's where they lost me. It will be sweet for construct though, whre you could have a higher fetch count in your deck. But only for 720 and more cubes at least.
Surely these are better than the mirage fetches? Hell, I think I'd put the scry lands and buddy lands above the mirage fetches in slower colors. Maybe even the tri lands.
Mirage Fetches can fix more then two colours which is a big difference.
I highly recommend people test out the Mirage fetchlands in UB and UW. I was skeptical at first, but now I'm like "wow, where have these been my whole life?" It's best to think of them NOT as bad versions of ONS / ZEN fetches, but as a Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds that trades the ability to search for any basic in exchange for the ability to search for dual lands.
The only two guilds where these new duals will be useful IMO will be in UR and UG, where they will probably be the 4th or 5th best option, but I'd imagine that a decent manland in those colors can outrank the new dual. UB and UW these are probably the 6th best option. Cubes would have to be like 800+ cards to consider these lands in non-blue guilds IMO.
Surely these are better than the mirage fetches? Hell, I think I'd put the scry lands and buddy lands above the mirage fetches in slower colors. Maybe even the tri lands.
Mirage Fetches can fix more then two colours which is a big difference.
Also, I think saying these are better than the Mirage fetches in cube isn't looking at the whole picture. As it is, with 20 fetchable lands and only 10 fetches (not counting the Mirage fetches), you sort of want a few more fetches. So, if you add in more fetchable lands, you probably want to be adding the Mirage fetches instead of including these over the Mirage fetches in order to support/take advantage of the additional fetching capabilities.
In non-blue guilds, I can't see myself playing these over check / filter lands and even fast lands in certain red / x guilds. The checkland will ALWAYS be faster outside of turn 1 where both are equal, and a filter land can at least cast other things such as off-color / colorless spells early on. Being fetchable is great, but it's far from an instant deal maker / breaker.
As a whole, here's where I'd rank every land cycle after dual / fetch / shock. There will probably some disagreements on what people rank higher between filters / fast / check / pain lands, but I believe they're pretty interchangeable in most non-blue guilds.
UR / UG
4th: BFZ duals (probably)
5th: filterlands
6th: painlands
7th: bouncelands??? (some people rank it higher in these guilds due to lack of competition but I'm not a fan)
8th: scrylands???
GW (the most stacked of stacked guild lands, lol)
4th: Horizon Canopy
5th: Stirring Wildwood
6th: Painland
7th: Checkland
8th: Fastland
9th: BFZ dual
10th: Gavony Township!
I could maybe see getting these full art Shocks for my cube. Fetches always feel like a weird thing to pimp out to that degree since they don't stay in play long to look at! if these end up being worth less than my Judge foil fetches, I could see making the swap though.
The new lands are probably not top tier but they are still fetchable duels. That's great stuff to have available as backup and they could replace ABU duals for people who don't have access to them, or want to play old cards, and want a second set of fetchable duals. So I'm very glad they have been printed.
I don't think you're in the minority. I feel the same way. I do think that some of the combinations if they extend these lands into the enemy guilds may benefit from having extra fetchable ETBT lands (mainly UR and UG as I mentioned above) but I can't see playing the allied colored ones in the cube.
I do think that some of the combinations if they extend these lands into the enemy guilds may benefit from having extra fetchable ETBT lands (mainly UR and UG as I mentioned above) but I can't see playing the allied colored ones in the cube.
Why do you think these lands would be so much better for Izzet and Simic?
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I do think that some of the combinations if they extend these lands into the enemy guilds may benefit from having extra fetchable ETBT lands (mainly UR and UG as I mentioned above) but I can't see playing the allied colored ones in the cube.
Why do you think these lands would be so much better for Izzet and Simic?
Many reasons
- They're fetchable
- The competition isn't that stiff in enemy guilds, plus blue doesn't want to take damage from painlands that much.
- Blue doesn't mind lands that ETB tapped as much as other colors, so they're not as punishing early game
A nice bonus is that green does care about Forests (except Nissa, Vastwood Seer, ironically the biggest tree-hugger in the game). My top contenders with laglands are starred:
I do think that some of the combinations if they extend these lands into the enemy guilds may benefit from having extra fetchable ETBT lands (mainly UR and UG as I mentioned above) but I can't see playing the allied colored ones in the cube.
Why do you think these lands would be so much better for Izzet and Simic?
Because those are the only color combinations that can afford the slower ETBT clause that are also missing the good land options.
It's not that they'll be great there, it's that if they were to be playable anywhere, it'd likely be in those two slots first.
Why do you think these lands would be so much better for Izzet and Simic?
Because those are the only color combinations that can afford the slower ETBT clause that are also missing the good land options.
It's not that they'll be great there, it's that if they were to be playable anywhere, it'd likely be in those two slots first.
OK, it sounds like you don't have much more enthusiasm for them in those guilds than I do. In my cube drafts, I've probably seen more Izzet and Simic tempo decks that want to drop threats in the first few turns than control decks, and even control decks will probably want to have their mana open to protect themselves from early aggro threats in the first three turns. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I love playing blue based tempo decks, but I've come to really question the idea that ETBT lands in blue are a good thing.
Based on your 540 cube, though, it looks like you're looking for a replacement for your 5th lands, Ravnica bouncelands in those particular guilds. "Tango" lands probably do make more sense if that's the case. At 465, I feel like I can safely pass on these.
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A little late but I'll chime in my with my opinions of the new BFZ duals (should we call them the double check lands?).
My Cube background: We have 5 lands/guild currently with the painlands being the 4th (mostly) complete cycle we run.
We seeded the double check lands in 2 drafts on Friday & they were consistently terrific in my powered 540. I love the painlands a lot...but I think these may be better. Even typing those words brings me pain because I'm such a proponent of the painlands & what they can do in a typical Cube deck. Watching the double check lands in action made me happy even when my opponent was fetching for them. The drawback does exist but was mitigated in most games by ETBT on T-1 or entering untapped later in the game. The drawback really hurt me one game because I played my lands out of order. Let's blame lack of experience with the lands & not the playskill of the pilot
The fetches, duals & shocks are the top 3 cycles without question. I hope that the manlands will be 4th after it's complete (I'm worried about how little they'll push them this time...I think Raging Ravine level of duals is the ceiling vs the best manlands like Celestial or Tar Pit, but that's a separate conversation). At this point if I was forced to run a 5th miscellaneous cycle then the double check lands would be a majority of them. The printing of these plus the pending cycle of manlands has forced me to reevaluate my land section. I've cut some miscellaneous lands to make room for six cycles in my 540 (the big 3 plus manlands, double check lands & the 6th will be mostly painlands with a few check lands & Horizon Canopy). I think the quality of the double check lands are worth increasing the total number of lands in my Cube by 3.
If you run more than 4 cycles of lands in your Cube then you should definitely test the complete cycle of these. I wasn't super excited when they were spoiled but seeing them in action has made me a believer. The basic land types are also a thing for cards like Rofellos, Koth, Daze & a host of other cards.
To my knowledge they are only available in the Foil slot at the "Special" rarity, so $$$$.
*My opinion unrelated to above.
I don't understand the hate for the new full art lands. They look very cool and I would assume people would be happy with at least getting some sort of reprint. I will be getting all 20 of the shock/fetch sets, unless the polluted delta is worse than the ONS.
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I like the art on the full-art versions. Only the border looks a bit irritating, but I always felt at first this way when they redesigned the border and then tend to like it after a while.
These fetchable duals up the power of the fetches, but they can end up being too slow for a lot of decks. Maybe we will only play part of the cycle, in those combinations where the other options are not that great.
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Surely these are better than the mirage fetches? Hell, I think I'd put the scry lands and buddy lands above the mirage fetches in slower colors. Maybe even the tri lands.
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Mirage Fetches can fix more then two colours which is a big difference.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
The only two guilds where these new duals will be useful IMO will be in UR and UG, where they will probably be the 4th or 5th best option, but I'd imagine that a decent manland in those colors can outrank the new dual. UB and UW these are probably the 6th best option. Cubes would have to be like 800+ cards to consider these lands in non-blue guilds IMO.
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Also, I think saying these are better than the Mirage fetches in cube isn't looking at the whole picture. As it is, with 20 fetchable lands and only 10 fetches (not counting the Mirage fetches), you sort of want a few more fetches. So, if you add in more fetchable lands, you probably want to be adding the Mirage fetches instead of including these over the Mirage fetches in order to support/take advantage of the additional fetching capabilities.
As a whole, here's where I'd rank every land cycle after dual / fetch / shock. There will probably some disagreements on what people rank higher between filters / fast / check / pain lands, but I believe they're pretty interchangeable in most non-blue guilds.
UB / UW
4th: WWK manlands
5th: Mirage fetchlands
6th: BFZ duals
7th: scrylands
8th: bouncelands???
UR / UG
4th: BFZ duals (probably)
5th: filterlands
6th: painlands
7th: bouncelands??? (some people rank it higher in these guilds due to lack of competition but I'm not a fan)
8th: scrylands???
GW (the most stacked of stacked guild lands, lol)
4th: Horizon Canopy
5th: Stirring Wildwood
6th: Painland
7th: Checkland
8th: Fastland
9th: BFZ dual
10th: Gavony Township!
RB / RG
4th: WWK manlands
5th: painlands
6th: fastlands
7th: checklands
8th: BFZ dual???
RW / BG / BW
4th: painland
5th: filterland
6th: checkland
8th: BFZ dual???
9th: scryland???
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The new lands are probably not top tier but they are still fetchable duels. That's great stuff to have available as backup and they could replace ABU duals for people who don't have access to them, or want to play old cards, and want a second set of fetchable duals. So I'm very glad they have been printed.
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Why do you think these lands would be so much better for Izzet and Simic?
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Many reasons
- They're fetchable
- The competition isn't that stiff in enemy guilds, plus blue doesn't want to take damage from painlands that much.
- Blue doesn't mind lands that ETB tapped as much as other colors, so they're not as punishing early game
- Mid-late game they have no drawback
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Because those are the only color combinations that can afford the slower ETBT clause that are also missing the good land options.
It's not that they'll be great there, it's that if they were to be playable anywhere, it'd likely be in those two slots first.
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OK, it sounds like you don't have much more enthusiasm for them in those guilds than I do. In my cube drafts, I've probably seen more Izzet and Simic tempo decks that want to drop threats in the first few turns than control decks, and even control decks will probably want to have their mana open to protect themselves from early aggro threats in the first three turns. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I love playing blue based tempo decks, but I've come to really question the idea that ETBT lands in blue are a good thing.
Based on your 540 cube, though, it looks like you're looking for a replacement for your 5th lands, Ravnica bouncelands in those particular guilds. "Tango" lands probably do make more sense if that's the case. At 465, I feel like I can safely pass on these.
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My Cube background: We have 5 lands/guild currently with the painlands being the 4th (mostly) complete cycle we run.
We seeded the double check lands in 2 drafts on Friday & they were consistently terrific in my powered 540. I love the painlands a lot...but I think these may be better. Even typing those words brings me pain because I'm such a proponent of the painlands & what they can do in a typical Cube deck. Watching the double check lands in action made me happy even when my opponent was fetching for them. The drawback does exist but was mitigated in most games by ETBT on T-1 or entering untapped later in the game. The drawback really hurt me one game because I played my lands out of order. Let's blame lack of experience with the lands & not the playskill of the pilot
The fetches, duals & shocks are the top 3 cycles without question. I hope that the manlands will be 4th after it's complete (I'm worried about how little they'll push them this time...I think Raging Ravine level of duals is the ceiling vs the best manlands like Celestial or Tar Pit, but that's a separate conversation). At this point if I was forced to run a 5th miscellaneous cycle then the double check lands would be a majority of them. The printing of these plus the pending cycle of manlands has forced me to reevaluate my land section. I've cut some miscellaneous lands to make room for six cycles in my 540 (the big 3 plus manlands, double check lands & the 6th will be mostly painlands with a few check lands & Horizon Canopy). I think the quality of the double check lands are worth increasing the total number of lands in my Cube by 3.
If you run more than 4 cycles of lands in your Cube then you should definitely test the complete cycle of these. I wasn't super excited when they were spoiled but seeing them in action has made me a believer. The basic land types are also a thing for cards like Rofellos, Koth, Daze & a host of other cards.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022