Do yourself a favor and start glimpse drafting! It's by far my favorite draft format now. You see a large portion of the cube, the drafting format becomes complex enough to add a new layer w/o making it too complex for new players to not know whats up, and the decks are ******* sweet. I would need to consistently be drafting with 6+ players to not be glimpse drafting.
This thing needed a relevant ability to make it into cube. A blank X/X for X is no where near good enough. Grenzo makes the cut because he does something interesting and gains you some amount of card advantage.
I think people are dramatically underrating this card in cube. I'm going to snap-include it in my 540 and I predict it will always be good. The fact that it cant be hit by artifact removal makes it even more reliable. Many, many decks will be happy to have this card - ramp decks get a card that's simultaneously a late-game threat but can also be used to contest the board early. Aggro hands will always curve out with this. The only deck I see that would be unhappy to play this card is control, but I'm fine with that as control has plenty of tools anyway.
I dont think its bad. I feel like I give ramp enough targets already. But I will check back for progress results for those that give it a run. Ive certainly been wrong before.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong - most cubes (mine included) already have enough ramp targets. But this is a card that is only a ramp target if it needs to be. Are you ramping, but playing against aggro? Turn 2 rampant growth into a 4/4 on turn 3 is just fine against that. Even without ramp in hand, a lot of times you are just looking to survive, and this card is good for that at every part of the early game (Turn 2 2/2 or turn 3 3/3 can buy you some time against aggro if needed).
I think people are dramatically underrating this card in cube. I'm going to snap-include it in my 540 and I predict it will always be good. The fact that it cant be hit by artifact removal makes it even more reliable. Many, many decks will be happy to have this card - ramp decks get a card that's simultaneously a late-game threat but can also be used to contest the board early. Aggro hands will always curve out with this. The only deck I see that would be unhappy to play this card is control, but I'm fine with that as control has plenty of tools anyway.
I'll definitely be testing this.
I don't feel like it's being underrated, people just aren't excited for what is essentially an X/X for X vanilla creature. It's not necessarily *bad* in a limited point of view as on-curve creatures in limited are generally good, but from a cube stand point compared to other cards that are being run it's not really *good* either. There's just no point in the curve where I'd cast this and feel like I'm getting my mana's worth, at least from a cube point of view.
The problem with this card is that its primary function is to be curve filler. It's hard to justify to a cube slot for a filler card, especially when nobody is playing Chimeric Mass anymore.
This card is much better than Chimeric Mass. Due to the activation cost, you cant play Chimeric Mass on turn 2 to trade with an early aggro threat, or as a turn 4 4/4. Activation cost means you're always one mana behind the curve when you cast it. Being an artifact also opens you up to 2-for-1s.
I'm looking at this card the way I do charms - while each mode seems boring, it's the flexibility of having any of them when you need it that makes it more interesting/useful.
So many people were excited about this card that we had to test it. It's not good. An X/X for X is just never what I want, and after seeing it in action, I would never cut an on-color or on-theme cube card from my final 40 for this. I would have to be absolutely desperate for playables (like playing off-color Morphs) before I'd put this in a cube deck.
Chimeric Mass dodges sorcery creature removal and wrath effects, interacts with all the artifact cards in the cube and can be tutored by Trinket Mage and it was still awful. This card isn't much better. In fact, it's very often much worse.
The flexibility on this card is akin to any number of other inefficient X spells. Endless One is to creatures what Blaze is to burn spells. Flexible because you can play it anywhere in the curve, but never good despite that upside.
I think I would rather have chimeric mass just because I can tutor it with Trinket Mage. I dont feel like a need a curve filler. Maybe in an underpowered cube, but even in my 720 Unpowered i dont think a curve filler is what people want to draft.
This card is much better than Chimeric Mass*, but it is the epitome of subpar at every point of the curve. Even if the flexility pushes this up to an overall mediocre package, a mediocre and unexciting card rarely makes maindecks in cube. Looks like a pure filler for midrange decks.
* Only a dedicated artifact deck would prefer the artifactness of Mass, but that is one out of over a dozen draftable archetypes in a typical cube. For every other deck, it is meaningless or even a drawback, since the typical cube should run more artifact removal than sorcery-speed creature removal. Since those pros and cons balance each other out, this leaves the need to pay 1 mana for every attack or block as a huge drawback for Mass. It usually means that Mass is -1/-1 smaller than Endless One. If I have 4 mana, but want to block, Mass will be a 3/3, while EO will be a 4/4. Even if I don't want to block that turn and make Mass a 4/4, attacking (or blocking) with it on the next turn disrupts my ability to use all my mana for new spells / other stuff / curving out. So Mass is clearly worse than EO and every claim to the contrary is just silly.
Not dying to your own wrath effects was a nice benefit that Mass has in control builds or midrange decks with sweepers. But X for an X/X is so mediocre; the only shot that it had to make a final 40 was in a deck that could take advantage of it's artifact-ness. Something that Endless One doesn't have.
Comparing this to blaze feels pretty unfair. Blaze is super inefficient at all costs, but especially early where it's almost unplayable (in cube at least). It is really only decent late in the game with a ton of mana.
Endless One is much more efficient card than that and it's colorless. Most everyone has 2/1 and 2/2 creatures for 2 mana in their cube. All with upside of course, but not all of it is unconditional upside (For the record, I consider things like first strike conditional upside because FS in particular is useless once there's something bigger on the other side of the table).
Sometimes you play a 2/2 or 2/1 on turn 2 and get nothing more out of it but you do it to stay on curve. And it's not a bad play at all if you want to keep pressure on. Endless One trades the conditional upside for being an on curve creature (P/T wise) at any point after T1 and it also can randomly be a huge monster if you top deck it in a long game. Those 2 mana 2/1's with upside are usually pretty weak top decks. Endless one is way better later in the game and totally playable (if unexciting) early. Blaze compares poorly and also requires a specific color of mana.
Again, maybe you power max guys have gotten your meta so juiced that bears, elephants and 4/4's for 4 are completely unplayable unless they come with additional perks. Or maybe you have drafts so highly tuned that a card which can be all three of those (and more) won't ever make your 23 playables. Fair enough I guess, but I find that hard to believe (or at least the exception not the rule with most cubes).
Again, maybe you power max guys have gotten your meta so juiced that bears, elephants and 4/4's for 4 are completely unplayable unless they come with additional perks. Or maybe you have drafts so highly tuned that a card which can be all three of those (and more) won't ever make your 23 playables. Fair enough I guess, but I find that hard to believe (or at least the exception not the rule with most cubes).
I cannot see this card ever make the final 23 in our cube drafts. We do 8-ma, rochester drafts and being short of playables is very rare. Maybe this happens more if you draft with just two players?
It is not that this card cannot be good in a certain game state, but it is never great. 1/1 for 1 is always ridiculous, 2/2 is pretty abysmal, 3/3 is pedestrian, 4/4 for 4 is lame and higher cc becomes just a dumb fatty. It seems to me that the times Endless One is just what you need, will be few and far between. Chimeric Mass at least has protection against sorceries and especially your own Wraths.
And as Wtwfl wrote, it is not even an artifact, so you cannot Tinker it away or boost it with Workshop.
Again, maybe you power max guys have gotten your meta so juiced that bears, elephants and 4/4's for 4 are completely unplayable unless they come with additional perks.
Your cube doesn't have to be "power maxed" for this to be the case. Vanilla curve creatures have been unplayable in all cubes of all sizes, powered or unpowered since the inception of the format.
Flexibility in where it lands isn't going to change how mundane of a creature it'll be at any phase of the game where you play it. Remember, this card is costing you a cube-worthy card from your final 40. I've never had a card in a cube deck I'd be willing to cut for this, unless my draft went completely downhill and I was bargaining for anything remotely playable.
Quote from ahadabans »
Blaze is super inefficient at all costs, but especially early where it's almost unplayable (in cube at least). It is really only decent late in the game with a ton of mana.
Replace Blaze in this sentence with Endless One and it's just as accurate.
I tried Endless One yesterday and it was mediocre at best. My cube is unpowered as well and I can attest this card is really unexciting.
Let me put it this way, this card is on the same power level of people playing Lore Seeker or Cogwork Librarian as the last card in their deck to fill their curve or if they lack their last playable. No one ever wants to and it's usually a last resort unless they have some artifact synergy. However, those Conspiracy Artifact creatures are exciting to have in the draft portion, this is not. I took this mid pack 1 over another card for my deck just to see how it was and I'm glad I did because I immediately took the card out after the draft was finished. The only 2 upsides are it being colorless and vanilla creature that can be played on any turn that served as the bear minimum in terms of stats means that's its ceiling will never be high.
This card was really unexciting and I am the one that's currently jamming Eldrazi from this set to test that are at least serviceable in an archetype. This one unfortunately was a quick and easy cut.
While we were testing it, we had to force it into decks instead of adding it to decks, because there were never cards we actually wanted to cut for it. And we were severely disappointed every time.
While Endless One doesn't support any archetype, Chimeric Mass at least has synergy with Artifact Matters cards and is actually a pretty useful win condition in Wildfire decks.
I'm still pretty favorable on this card. It's not awesome by any stretch but as a modal creature it's incredibly flexible. Another thing I like about Endless One is that sometimes drafts don't go the way you want them to and you just need another 2 drop or some fat at the top of the curve. Yes, this guy will pretty much always be a 23rd card, but I think dedicating one cube slot to a card that has such flexibility and is a completely fine hole filler in every deck is warranted. At least that's how me and my group view it.
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Thanks. I'll give it a try.
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I'll definitely be testing this.
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I don't feel like it's being underrated, people just aren't excited for what is essentially an X/X for X vanilla creature. It's not necessarily *bad* in a limited point of view as on-curve creatures in limited are generally good, but from a cube stand point compared to other cards that are being run it's not really *good* either. There's just no point in the curve where I'd cast this and feel like I'm getting my mana's worth, at least from a cube point of view.
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I'm looking at this card the way I do charms - while each mode seems boring, it's the flexibility of having any of them when you need it that makes it more interesting/useful.
Chimeric Mass dodges sorcery creature removal and wrath effects, interacts with all the artifact cards in the cube and can be tutored by Trinket Mage and it was still awful. This card isn't much better. In fact, it's very often much worse.
The flexibility on this card is akin to any number of other inefficient X spells. Endless One is to creatures what Blaze is to burn spells. Flexible because you can play it anywhere in the curve, but never good despite that upside.
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* Only a dedicated artifact deck would prefer the artifactness of Mass, but that is one out of over a dozen draftable archetypes in a typical cube. For every other deck, it is meaningless or even a drawback, since the typical cube should run more artifact removal than sorcery-speed creature removal. Since those pros and cons balance each other out, this leaves the need to pay 1 mana for every attack or block as a huge drawback for Mass. It usually means that Mass is -1/-1 smaller than Endless One. If I have 4 mana, but want to block, Mass will be a 3/3, while EO will be a 4/4. Even if I don't want to block that turn and make Mass a 4/4, attacking (or blocking) with it on the next turn disrupts my ability to use all my mana for new spells / other stuff / curving out. So Mass is clearly worse than EO and every claim to the contrary is just silly.
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Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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Endless One is much more efficient card than that and it's colorless. Most everyone has 2/1 and 2/2 creatures for 2 mana in their cube. All with upside of course, but not all of it is unconditional upside (For the record, I consider things like first strike conditional upside because FS in particular is useless once there's something bigger on the other side of the table).
Sometimes you play a 2/2 or 2/1 on turn 2 and get nothing more out of it but you do it to stay on curve. And it's not a bad play at all if you want to keep pressure on. Endless One trades the conditional upside for being an on curve creature (P/T wise) at any point after T1 and it also can randomly be a huge monster if you top deck it in a long game. Those 2 mana 2/1's with upside are usually pretty weak top decks. Endless one is way better later in the game and totally playable (if unexciting) early. Blaze compares poorly and also requires a specific color of mana.
Again, maybe you power max guys have gotten your meta so juiced that bears, elephants and 4/4's for 4 are completely unplayable unless they come with additional perks. Or maybe you have drafts so highly tuned that a card which can be all three of those (and more) won't ever make your 23 playables. Fair enough I guess, but I find that hard to believe (or at least the exception not the rule with most cubes).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I cannot see this card ever make the final 23 in our cube drafts. We do 8-ma, rochester drafts and being short of playables is very rare. Maybe this happens more if you draft with just two players?
It is not that this card cannot be good in a certain game state, but it is never great. 1/1 for 1 is always ridiculous, 2/2 is pretty abysmal, 3/3 is pedestrian, 4/4 for 4 is lame and higher cc becomes just a dumb fatty. It seems to me that the times Endless One is just what you need, will be few and far between. Chimeric Mass at least has protection against sorceries and especially your own Wraths.
And as Wtwfl wrote, it is not even an artifact, so you cannot Tinker it away or boost it with Workshop.
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Your cube doesn't have to be "power maxed" for this to be the case. Vanilla curve creatures have been unplayable in all cubes of all sizes, powered or unpowered since the inception of the format.
Flexibility in where it lands isn't going to change how mundane of a creature it'll be at any phase of the game where you play it. Remember, this card is costing you a cube-worthy card from your final 40. I've never had a card in a cube deck I'd be willing to cut for this, unless my draft went completely downhill and I was bargaining for anything remotely playable.
Replace Blaze in this sentence with Endless One and it's just as accurate.
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Let me put it this way, this card is on the same power level of people playing Lore Seeker or Cogwork Librarian as the last card in their deck to fill their curve or if they lack their last playable. No one ever wants to and it's usually a last resort unless they have some artifact synergy. However, those Conspiracy Artifact creatures are exciting to have in the draft portion, this is not. I took this mid pack 1 over another card for my deck just to see how it was and I'm glad I did because I immediately took the card out after the draft was finished. The only 2 upsides are it being colorless and vanilla creature that can be played on any turn that served as the bear minimum in terms of stats means that's its ceiling will never be high.
This card was really unexciting and I am the one that's currently jamming Eldrazi from this set to test that are at least serviceable in an archetype. This one unfortunately was a quick and easy cut.
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