If you're struggling to get to 23 cards consistently, I could see endless one being OK, but I rarely find myself having to force cards into a deck. Mostly I have to make tough decisions on what to cut. I get that drafts don't always go well, but I think that's much less of an issue in cube where the card quality from top to bottom is generally high and those 10th-15th cards are often fine-to-good and many are main deck able. Like I don't think it's a stretch to say that 1 out of, at minimum, every 100 drafts I do I might not get to 23 playables, and that's not big-upping myself but moreso saying that the cards are good up and down and I'm getting good cards at the end of packs.
I haven't tested this yet, so I could be way off on my assumptions. Disclaimer up front. This could all prove to be bullocks.
Here's what I do know. When I draft, I often find gaps in my curve. I struggle to make cuts too of course, but usually at specific CMC's. Rarely (never?) at all CMC slots. I will almost always have more 4's than I can run, but 2's can be lacking (very common for me at least - I guess I don't like two drops as a general rule) and sometimes 3's.
I'm not the greatest drafter. I freely admit that. I don't take it very seriously. I should keep better track of how many cards I've picked up at each CMC, but I'm lazy and just ballpark it. And at the end, I'm usually off a card or two and then I'm scrambling to find something to fill a spot on my curve. Endless One to the rescue.
More importantly though, games don't usually play out where you get exactly what you want when you want it. You can design your deck with the most lovely curve ever, and you are still at the mercy of the shuffle. Again, Endless One to the rescue. It goes wherever you need it to during the game. On T3, if my choice is another 2 drop or Endless One as a 3/3, I'm probably better off with the 3/3. This is true (for the most part) at the most crucial points of the curve (2-4). And late game it's a random huge (albeit generic) threat. Sure, it can be chumped and doom bladed etc, but if I'm top decking and a 6/6 doesn't get me back into it, the game was probably over regardless of what I drew (this isn't a control card I don't think, so talking about this from a more aggressive deck list's perspective).
I'd rather play a second cube-worthy 2-drop and miss my 3-mana play than play this guy as "curve filler". I like that it's flexible, but that doesn't do me any good if none of the modes are what I want.
I wanted to test this card, so I tossed it into my Abzan aggro/midrange test deck and played two games versus a Dimir combo/control test deck. I seeded my opening hand with Endless One and 6 random cards both games (to ensure it would see play - or at least I'd have the option of playing it).
The Abzan deck won both games and Endless One was cast each time. First game, I got a great aggressive start and got the Dimir deck down to very low life (< 5). Dimir stabilized with board wipe and a dragon, so I then cast Endless One as a 5/5 and Dimir was forced to trade. That was a key play as it turned out. Second game both decks durdle (I should have taken a mulligan with both hands honestly). Eventually, I make a 4/4 Endless One after several of my smaller creatures get neutralized. Endless One ends up dealing 8 points of damage before dying.
Small sample set obviously, but it played well here. My guess is I'd be very unlikely to cast this on T2 as a 2/2, but that has more to do with the fact that I never play all-in aggro decks (and 3/3's are just a lot more useful). I realized too that it's fetchable with Ranger of Eos (which happened to be in this Abzan deck). Nifty since it can be a real buzz kill to have Ranger fetch two useless dudes later in the game when you really need something with more substance.
I wanted to test this card, so I tossed it into my Abzan aggro/midrange test deck and played two games versus a Dimir combo/control test deck. I seeded my opening hand with Endless One and 6 random cards both games (to ensure it would see play - or at least I'd have the option of playing it).
As I said before, the problem isn't "this card can be good in X situation," the problem is "will this make it in my deck of 40 cards." If you hadn't forced it into your deck, do you think it would have made the cut naturally?
I'm pretty sure at that point any 4+ cmc drop would dominate the game in your favor even more than a 4/4 or 5/5. He just wouldn't make it into the decks normally.
As I said before, the problem isn't "this card can be good in X situation," the problem is "will this make it in my deck of 40 cards." If you hadn't forced it into your deck, do you think it would have made the cut naturally?
I don't know. I value flexibility more than most, so I don't think it's a last pick honestly. There are just too many times in a game where you have this great 2 drop but it's T5 and you wished it was bigger. Endless One is always bigger when you need it to be. In fact, it's always exactly as big as you have available mana should you choose that option.
As always, I want to point out that my meta is a bit slower than most cubes here (and it's heavy midrange). It also runs a higher percentage of removal (quantity, but quality is lower than what most run). As a result, scaling threats are pretty good here.
In this particular matchup I tested, the Dimir deck had a million and one ways to kill something with 2 toughness, but very few ways to kill something with 5 toughness. I knew that of course, so used it against myself in that first game. Still, this kind of card I believe will do better in practice than it will on paler specifically because it can be cast for max value in every single game at whatever point of the game you need it.
Again, people play 2 power 2 drops all the time. And sometimes that's all you get (because the situation wasn't ideal). But you do it because you want to keep pressure on and/or you have no better play. More games of Magic play like that in my experience versus how we tend to theory craft (where everything is played in the ideal scenario). IMO, that is the nature of limited environments (and cube is definitely more limited than constructed).
It seems that this discussion is slowly becoming an endless one...
Agree, and it seems like there are two camps here: Those that see it as an always last pick that will rarely be worth the cube slot, and those that see it as a flexible threat that is worth the cube slot. I am personally part of the latter camp and my playtest experience thus far has been pretty similar to ahadabans, so for now Endless One is staying in my cube for extended testing. I totally see the validity of the "this card will never be worth the slot" argument though. My group and I just like this guy and probably overvalue modal cards... so we are going for it. Maybe to the detriment of my cube? Who knows, we are happy
I see both the allure / distaste for this card, I don't fault anyone for being on either camp. If you do like this card for your cube and it has been testing well, I do suggest that you at least try Chimeric Mass if you haven't, especially if you support artifacts matters and / or Wildfire.
I think Chimeric Mass is just way above Endless One. This last one was sweet at the BFZ prerelease weekend, but that's pretty much it. And it's not like Chimeric Mass is something that's close from being cubable... I don't want to disrespect anyone but Endless One doesn't look like cube material at all, no matter what cube size you're running.
Chimeric mass was actually really annoying being forced to have upkeep 1. I feel like they are on the same level of power simply due to that. Yes dodging sorcery speed removal is nice, but upkeep 1 is a lot to ask.
That upkeep 1 late game is totally worth the cost. And it also means as a fatties it at least pass the vindicate test, which Endless one fail miserably
That upkeep 1 late game is totally worth the cost. And it also means as a fatties it at least pass the vindicate test, which Endless one fail miserably
Pretty sure Chimeric Mass fails the Vindicate part of the Vindicate test, but it dodges all other non-artifact sorcery speed removal
No but seriously, not being a creature all the time is just as good as it is "bad", especially in the Wildfire scenario. Not dying to your OWN sweepers is huge.
Where I would actually want an X/X for X I don't care about failing sorcery speed removal tests. I want an X/X for X in an aggro/midrange deck, in a control deck I'd rather just use a planeswalker or real resilient threat. In my aggro, midrange deck i also want to be curving out, not paying upkeep 1. I honestly prefer this over chimeric mass for that reason, that being said, I'm not going to run either.
Though I don't get why they'll do this for an eldrazi. Fail design IMO. I don't like the flexibility bit.
Huh? This is actually a really good card design:
Elegance - It is the simplest and cleanest way to print a X/X for X. No additional mana, ability or card type, just a straightforward X/X for X.
Flavor - It is sufficiently weird for an Eldrazi. It's a creature that has no defined size and can be a bear one time and a colossus the next.
Power - It is not good enough for competitive constructed or cube, but it is playable in limited and casual constructed, so it is not a total dud.
All in all, it is both a fitting Eldrazi and an Eldrazi card is a perfect fit for this creature. I really wish it had a simple ability that would push it into cubability range (doesn't it look a bit as if it is flying in the picture?), but that would substract from its elegance. Even if it hasn't great playability, it is an A class card design. And I actually think the design being so good is a reason why so many want to give it a try and instinctively want to play with it, even though it is not a strong card.
Where I would actually want an X/X for X I don't care about failing sorcery speed removal tests. I want an X/X for X in an aggro/midrange deck, in a control deck I'd rather just use a planeswalker or real resilient threat. In my aggro, midrange deck i also want to be curving out, not paying upkeep 1. I honestly prefer this over chimeric mass for that reason, that being said, I'm not going to run either.
I think that EO is no near playable in aggro, neither midrange. At any casting cost, it wont ever be close to what those kind of decks need. And I think it's true no matter where you put it in the curve.
Power - It is not good enough for competitive constructed or cube, but it is playable in limited and casual constructed, so it is not a total dud.
I really think people are undervaluing the flexibility this card offers. I don't disagree this is bogus in constructed, but cube is a completely different animal (it's much closer to limited).
Everyone keeps comparing it to cards with the same CMC, but that is not how this is going to be played most of the time. You will have 4 lands in play and have no 4 drop in hand. In that scenario, you can play a 3 drop and not use all your mana, but if you are the beatdown that is suboptimal play most of the time. You can play two 2 drops (assuming you have two), but that overextends you potentially and are they impactful enough that late in the game? That is where a 4/4 will start to look really damn good. And this scenario just improves as the game goes on.
Now, you could just run a better 4 drop instead. Sure, but how about those games when you just need a 2 or 3 drop? Or that game where for whatever reason you find yourself with 6 mana because the game just got stalled or you got flooded or whatever. Bam! Here's this giant thing my opponent at least has to have an answer for (and even if they do, cool that's one less removal spell for my other threats). That's the flexibility I'm talking about.
And it's COLORLESS. Every creature based deck can take advantage of this card.
I would like to point out that I would take most of my 3 drops over a vanilla 4/4 in most scenarios. Its not about how much mana your spending, its about how much value you're getting. If I have EO and a 3 drop in hand and 4 mana to spend, the Kitchen Finks is probably the stronger play. I'm passing on EO at 720.
Power - It is not good enough for competitive constructed or cube, but it is playable in limited and casual constructed, so it is not a total dud.
I really think people are undervaluing the flexibility this card offers. I don't disagree this is bogus in constructed, but cube is a completely different animal (it's much closer to limited).
Everyone keeps comparing it to cards with the same CMC, but that is not how this is going to be played most of the time. You will have 4 lands in play and have no 4 drop in hand. In that scenario, you can play a 3 drop and not use all your mana, but if you are the beatdown that is suboptimal play most of the time. You can play two 2 drops (assuming you have two), but that overextends you potentially and are they impactful enough that late in the game? That is where a 4/4 will start to look really damn good. And this scenario just improves as the game goes on.
Now, you could just run a better 4 drop instead. Sure, but how about those games when you just need a 2 or 3 drop? Or that game where for whatever reason you find yourself with 6 mana because the game just got stalled or you got flooded or whatever. Bam! Here's this giant thing my opponent at least has to have an answer for (and even if they do, cool that's one less removal spell for my other threats). That's the flexibility I'm talking about.
And it's COLORLESS. Every creature based deck can take advantage of this card.
I think Chimeric Mass is more flexible than this card. Seeing how that card has existed for a good amount of years and nobody seems to be cubing it at the moment really tells you a lot about how much people value its inferior (IMO) Eldrazi cousin.
I think Chimeric Mass is more flexible than this card. Seeing how that card has existed for a good amount of years and nobody seems to be cubing it at the moment really tells you a lot about how much people value its inferior (IMO) Eldrazi cousin.
Chimeric Mass is much worse in aggro/midrange because of the upkeep cost. So I don't think you are comparing apples and oranges.
I would like to point out that I would take most of my 3 drops over a vanilla 4/4 in most scenarios. Its not about how much mana your spending, its about how much value you're getting. If I have EO and a 3 drop in hand and 4 mana to spend, the Kitchen Finks is probably the stronger play. I'm passing on EO at 720.
Why is Kitchen Finks a better play? Is it a better card in a vacuum? Obviously. But if your opponent has an 0/4 wall, Finks is useless to you as far as winning the game goes. And you don't care about the 2 life or the recurring nature of the card if it can't put pressure on your opponent (talking about as the beatdown). A 4/4 kills the wall and forces your opponent to deal with it. It's all about context. In game context.
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Here's what I do know. When I draft, I often find gaps in my curve. I struggle to make cuts too of course, but usually at specific CMC's. Rarely (never?) at all CMC slots. I will almost always have more 4's than I can run, but 2's can be lacking (very common for me at least - I guess I don't like two drops as a general rule) and sometimes 3's.
I'm not the greatest drafter. I freely admit that. I don't take it very seriously. I should keep better track of how many cards I've picked up at each CMC, but I'm lazy and just ballpark it. And at the end, I'm usually off a card or two and then I'm scrambling to find something to fill a spot on my curve. Endless One to the rescue.
More importantly though, games don't usually play out where you get exactly what you want when you want it. You can design your deck with the most lovely curve ever, and you are still at the mercy of the shuffle. Again, Endless One to the rescue. It goes wherever you need it to during the game. On T3, if my choice is another 2 drop or Endless One as a 3/3, I'm probably better off with the 3/3. This is true (for the most part) at the most crucial points of the curve (2-4). And late game it's a random huge (albeit generic) threat. Sure, it can be chumped and doom bladed etc, but if I'm top decking and a 6/6 doesn't get me back into it, the game was probably over regardless of what I drew (this isn't a control card I don't think, so talking about this from a more aggressive deck list's perspective).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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I wanted to test this card, so I tossed it into my Abzan aggro/midrange test deck and played two games versus a Dimir combo/control test deck. I seeded my opening hand with Endless One and 6 random cards both games (to ensure it would see play - or at least I'd have the option of playing it).
The Abzan deck won both games and Endless One was cast each time. First game, I got a great aggressive start and got the Dimir deck down to very low life (< 5). Dimir stabilized with board wipe and a dragon, so I then cast Endless One as a 5/5 and Dimir was forced to trade. That was a key play as it turned out. Second game both decks durdle (I should have taken a mulligan with both hands honestly). Eventually, I make a 4/4 Endless One after several of my smaller creatures get neutralized. Endless One ends up dealing 8 points of damage before dying.
Small sample set obviously, but it played well here. My guess is I'd be very unlikely to cast this on T2 as a 2/2, but that has more to do with the fact that I never play all-in aggro decks (and 3/3's are just a lot more useful). I realized too that it's fetchable with Ranger of Eos (which happened to be in this Abzan deck). Nifty since it can be a real buzz kill to have Ranger fetch two useless dudes later in the game when you really need something with more substance.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
As I said before, the problem isn't "this card can be good in X situation," the problem is "will this make it in my deck of 40 cards." If you hadn't forced it into your deck, do you think it would have made the cut naturally?
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I don't know. I value flexibility more than most, so I don't think it's a last pick honestly. There are just too many times in a game where you have this great 2 drop but it's T5 and you wished it was bigger. Endless One is always bigger when you need it to be. In fact, it's always exactly as big as you have available mana should you choose that option.
As always, I want to point out that my meta is a bit slower than most cubes here (and it's heavy midrange). It also runs a higher percentage of removal (quantity, but quality is lower than what most run). As a result, scaling threats are pretty good here.
In this particular matchup I tested, the Dimir deck had a million and one ways to kill something with 2 toughness, but very few ways to kill something with 5 toughness. I knew that of course, so used it against myself in that first game. Still, this kind of card I believe will do better in practice than it will on paler specifically because it can be cast for max value in every single game at whatever point of the game you need it.
Again, people play 2 power 2 drops all the time. And sometimes that's all you get (because the situation wasn't ideal). But you do it because you want to keep pressure on and/or you have no better play. More games of Magic play like that in my experience versus how we tend to theory craft (where everything is played in the ideal scenario). IMO, that is the nature of limited environments (and cube is definitely more limited than constructed).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Though I don't get why they'll do this for an eldrazi. Fail design IMO. I don't like the flexibility bit.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Agree, and it seems like there are two camps here: Those that see it as an always last pick that will rarely be worth the cube slot, and those that see it as a flexible threat that is worth the cube slot. I am personally part of the latter camp and my playtest experience thus far has been pretty similar to ahadabans, so for now Endless One is staying in my cube for extended testing. I totally see the validity of the "this card will never be worth the slot" argument though. My group and I just like this guy and probably overvalue modal cards... so we are going for it. Maybe to the detriment of my cube? Who knows, we are happy
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thats my cube
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Pretty sure Chimeric Mass fails the Vindicate part of the Vindicate test, but it dodges all other non-artifact sorcery speed removal
No but seriously, not being a creature all the time is just as good as it is "bad", especially in the Wildfire scenario. Not dying to your OWN sweepers is huge.
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thats my cube
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Elegance - It is the simplest and cleanest way to print a X/X for X. No additional mana, ability or card type, just a straightforward X/X for X.
Flavor - It is sufficiently weird for an Eldrazi. It's a creature that has no defined size and can be a bear one time and a colossus the next.
Power - It is not good enough for competitive constructed or cube, but it is playable in limited and casual constructed, so it is not a total dud.
All in all, it is both a fitting Eldrazi and an Eldrazi card is a perfect fit for this creature. I really wish it had a simple ability that would push it into cubability range (doesn't it look a bit as if it is flying in the picture?), but that would substract from its elegance. Even if it hasn't great playability, it is an A class card design. And I actually think the design being so good is a reason why so many want to give it a try and instinctively want to play with it, even though it is not a strong card.
Well, then people need to start seeing Endless One as "protection from artifact destruction in general".
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I think that EO is no near playable in aggro, neither midrange. At any casting cost, it wont ever be close to what those kind of decks need. And I think it's true no matter where you put it in the curve.
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I really think people are undervaluing the flexibility this card offers. I don't disagree this is bogus in constructed, but cube is a completely different animal (it's much closer to limited).
Everyone keeps comparing it to cards with the same CMC, but that is not how this is going to be played most of the time. You will have 4 lands in play and have no 4 drop in hand. In that scenario, you can play a 3 drop and not use all your mana, but if you are the beatdown that is suboptimal play most of the time. You can play two 2 drops (assuming you have two), but that overextends you potentially and are they impactful enough that late in the game? That is where a 4/4 will start to look really damn good. And this scenario just improves as the game goes on.
Now, you could just run a better 4 drop instead. Sure, but how about those games when you just need a 2 or 3 drop? Or that game where for whatever reason you find yourself with 6 mana because the game just got stalled or you got flooded or whatever. Bam! Here's this giant thing my opponent at least has to have an answer for (and even if they do, cool that's one less removal spell for my other threats). That's the flexibility I'm talking about.
And it's COLORLESS. Every creature based deck can take advantage of this card.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I think Chimeric Mass is more flexible than this card. Seeing how that card has existed for a good amount of years and nobody seems to be cubing it at the moment really tells you a lot about how much people value its inferior (IMO) Eldrazi cousin.
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Chimeric Mass is much worse in aggro/midrange because of the upkeep cost. So I don't think you are comparing apples and oranges.
Why is Kitchen Finks a better play? Is it a better card in a vacuum? Obviously. But if your opponent has an 0/4 wall, Finks is useless to you as far as winning the game goes. And you don't care about the 2 life or the recurring nature of the card if it can't put pressure on your opponent (talking about as the beatdown). A 4/4 kills the wall and forces your opponent to deal with it. It's all about context. In game context.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/