A little off topic from Scatter, but I see a lot of people really underselling Burst Lightning's first mode to make a parallel to Scatter and I don't think they are being fair in doing so.
I also see people overselling the first mode of Burst Lightning to diminish the value of Scatter, when Shock and Cancel are in a very similar league of cards. They're both serviceable in the right situations, and only need a small (but relevant) push to make them worthwhile.
I also think that the suite of available burn that can go into the cube is rather deep, but the shelf of "next-level" countermagic is rather shallow.
Shock is perfectly playable (we pay 2 mana for Magma Jet afterall) and I'd probably put it in most decks playing red, I just wouldn't devote a cube slot to it. The only one drop burn spell that's actually strictly better than Shock is Lightning Bolt.
Cancel is kind of in the same boat, except that there's at least 3 cards STRICTLY better than it (Forbid / Dissipate / Scatter).
Shock is perfectly playable (we pay 2 mana for Magma Jet afterall) and I'd probably put it in most decks playing red, I just wouldn't devote a cube slot to it. The only one drop burn spell that's actually strictly better than Shock is Lightning Bolt.
Cancel is kind of in the same boat, except that there's at least 3 cards STRICTLY better than it (Forbid / Dissipate / Scatter).
We pay 2 mana for a shock + Scry 2. w/o the scry 2, it's unplayable, even with Scry 1 I don't think I'd play that alternate-reality magma jet.
I know, I know. But I like more Deprive or (if you have the right cube) Logic Knot.
I don't see in what those spells are better options than Scatter to the Winds. And if you really think that control can't afford losing a land, I don't see why you should be playing Deprive over it. And Logic Knot just seems like a very flexible kind of counterspell. Looks like 900 and more cube material. Very bad early game, and then become a Counterpsell or Cancel that you can go around in the late game. Not better than Condescend IMO.
And yeah, Burst Lightning and Scatter to the Winds are very comparable. Everything's good is in the flexibility that both offer.
Shock might be better than Cancel, but there's a lot more burn spells we could add before Shock would be a reasonable add than there are additional good counters. I think that the available pool of counters beyond the commonly played cube ones is really shallow. Whereas there are a lot of playable burn spells that miss the cut.
Shock might be better than Cancel, but there's a lot more burn spells we could add before Shock would be a reasonable add than there are additional good counters. I think that the available pool of counters beyond the commonly played cube ones is really shallow. Whereas there are a lot of playable burn spells that miss the cut.
Not to keep beating this dead horse, but I don't think this is a strong argument for cancel over shock.
The number of better options above each card on the power scale really should have less to do with including those cards than how playable they actually would be in cube. Even if there are 100 cards better than shock, assuming shock plays better than cancel in cube (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't - that isn't the point of my objection) it doesn't really matter if cancel is the 4th best 3 mana counter or the 70th best. It's either playable or it isn't and the pool of available cards "above it" is pretty inconsequential.
I only hammer this point because I see these arguments made a lot for includes at all CMC. Such and such card is now the 20th most powerful 3 mana white card (or whatever) so it's no longer playable outside 900 card cubes. That doesn't really make any sense. Some cards stop being playable because the environment gets too fast (fair enough), but the number of cards people cut because that actually happens (versus just "powering up") is a very low percentage these days.
The point was that people who have been wanting "the next best hard counter" had no cubeworthy options before, but if I needed "the next best burn spell", I have like 20 cards to pick from. None of which would be Shock, but Cancel is pretty close to the top of that other list, because there simply aren't any other options.
I still think scatter is more like Rout or of other cards that have two overpriced options. Flexible is still awesome in cube, but without a cheap option the card is 540+ land where flexible cards with cheap options (like burst) are 360 material.
But all everything is going to come down to experience because we rarely get interesting counter spells.
A little late to the party, but I had scatter at the prerelease and it impressed me. Most of the time in limited you don't want to pass on turn 3 without developing your board anyhow. So more often than not, right as I was running out of gas in my hand, I was getting to about 6 mana and still had Scatter waiting for me.
Obviously BFZ limited is a totally different beast than cube (the risk of not countering a turn 3 or 4 BFZ play is quite a bit worse than missing out on countering JTMS or Elspeth), but it's worth a look.
I'm still ambivalent on the card overall, but I never saw the appeal in any of the cancel variants before this, so I'm a tougher sell.
I've sen it cast with awaken a couple of times so far, and it's usually a total blowout when you do. Which is why I still give it a significant edge over the other Cancel variants. But ya, Cancel is a serviceable spell when you need one.
Dissolve has always been solid in my Cube, I really like the free Scry but I may switch these for a while and test it out. I think Awaken could actually come up a few times late game do some work. Countering a late game threat that they are hopefully tapping out for, main phase C-Rifting away their board and having an extra attacker etc seems like a sweet deal? Is this card a Rare though? Feels like a good Uncommon, not that it matters for Cube but makes sense for limited.
I've sen it cast with awaken a couple of times so far, and it's usually a total blowout when you do. Which is why I still give it a significant edge over the other Cancel variants. But ya, Cancel is a serviceable spell when you need one.
I have seen it awoken quite a few times in cube and at the prerelease. Never once was the 3/3 'A total blowout'. It was always 'Nice'. But it was just another pud on a crowded board, or on an empty board it was a manland that could chip away, but usually died when it wasn't in a creature heavy deck.
Don't get me wrong I am warming up to it, but only if you feel that cancel is fine and are out of cheaper options you prefer. I like clutch of currents, ruinous path, and planar outburst better as awaken cards.
We are in total agreement here.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Cancel is kind of in the same boat, except that there's at least 3 cards STRICTLY better than it (Forbid / Dissipate / Scatter).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
We pay 2 mana for a shock + Scry 2. w/o the scry 2, it's unplayable, even with Scry 1 I don't think I'd play that alternate-reality magma jet.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Also, forgot to mention in my precious post that Burst Lightning is strictly better than Shock, but my statement still stands.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I don't see in what those spells are better options than Scatter to the Winds. And if you really think that control can't afford losing a land, I don't see why you should be playing Deprive over it. And Logic Knot just seems like a very flexible kind of counterspell. Looks like 900 and more cube material. Very bad early game, and then become a Counterpsell or Cancel that you can go around in the late game. Not better than Condescend IMO.
And yeah, Burst Lightning and Scatter to the Winds are very comparable. Everything's good is in the flexibility that both offer.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
2cc (or less) counterspells are pretty crowded anyways.
0cc
Force of Will
Daze
1cc
Force Spike
Mana Tithe (white card, but whatever)
2cc
Mana Drain
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Remand
Arcane Denial
Memory Lapse
Miscalculation
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Not to keep beating this dead horse, but I don't think this is a strong argument for cancel over shock.
The number of better options above each card on the power scale really should have less to do with including those cards than how playable they actually would be in cube. Even if there are 100 cards better than shock, assuming shock plays better than cancel in cube (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't - that isn't the point of my objection) it doesn't really matter if cancel is the 4th best 3 mana counter or the 70th best. It's either playable or it isn't and the pool of available cards "above it" is pretty inconsequential.
I only hammer this point because I see these arguments made a lot for includes at all CMC. Such and such card is now the 20th most powerful 3 mana white card (or whatever) so it's no longer playable outside 900 card cubes. That doesn't really make any sense. Some cards stop being playable because the environment gets too fast (fair enough), but the number of cards people cut because that actually happens (versus just "powering up") is a very low percentage these days.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But all everything is going to come down to experience because we rarely get interesting counter spells.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Obviously BFZ limited is a totally different beast than cube (the risk of not countering a turn 3 or 4 BFZ play is quite a bit worse than missing out on countering JTMS or Elspeth), but it's worth a look.
I'm still ambivalent on the card overall, but I never saw the appeal in any of the cancel variants before this, so I'm a tougher sell.
Maybe that's just bad variance, but beginning to think that dissolve is better and more people should be playing dissolve.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Modern: Jund
I have seen it awoken quite a few times in cube and at the prerelease. Never once was the 3/3 'A total blowout'. It was always 'Nice'. But it was just another pud on a crowded board, or on an empty board it was a manland that could chip away, but usually died when it wasn't in a creature heavy deck.
Don't get me wrong I am warming up to it, but only if you feel that cancel is fine and are out of cheaper options you prefer. I like clutch of currents, ruinous path, and planar outburst better as awaken cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!