Desertion was a blast! I used to cube with that card myself; had a cool altered one too. Ultimately I was stranded in bad spots with that card when I couldn't use it early and it cost too much mana for a 1-mode counterspell, and it was cut years ago. If it had a cheaper mode on it in addition to its regular ability, it would've been amazing.
If I had desertion still in this would replace it, but it is gone for the reason wtwlf mentioned. But half the reason it lasted so long was the funzies, kind of like bribery, but that card is always good. At 540 I would try scatter.
I still play rift, it is my bounce of choice but that is just me.
I ran Desertion for quite a while. It was usually a total blowout. However, 5 mana is a lot for a counterspell and it was a dead card in the early game and if the opponent already had enough pressure on the board, also in the mid game. 3 mana is so much more affordable for a purely reactive spell than 5 mana. Yes, Cancel is crappy, but having it as an option tacked onto your late game counter can be a real life saver.
They thought they would get a threat, but instead, they got nothing and you got a threat. BAM! Then you untap, attack with your unexpected creature and leave mana open to counter their next important spell. That's why counter + creature is so good.
Sure, a 3/3 is not a finisher, but it is a respectable threat. A random 3/3 can really hurt, as Beast Within has taught me. I actually used that card on my on permanents more often than I used it on opposing permanents, because that random 3/3 would make such a difference on the board.
Counter+Creature is good for sure.
The cost isn't. And the option to do that is less valuable than exiling a spell that can come back or scrying one imho.
Scrying one is probably worth half a card, as is getting a 3/3 (call of the Herd).
Except that in the first case, you don't pay double to get the bonus.
The comparison with Beast Within cannot be made, since Beast Within cost only 3 and deals with permanents instead of spells (plus the generated token is not on the same side of the board depending on how you use the spell). A 3/3 token matters more in the early game than in the late game, for sure.
Since the beginning you are comparing this card with others, but every time you only look at the upside.
But you are putting very different cards in the same basket. A 3/3 token is not the same as the flying body of a Draining Whelk. It cannot be blinked, bounced or reanimated. It will cost you 4 extra mana, for a total of 6 mana (because the first extra mana you spend gives you a Cancel, not a Counterspell). You cannot get the 3/3 unless you spend 6 mana. And so on...
I am not saying this card is useless, I am saying that the other options @3 are better, and most of the cubers don't even play those cards.
I never made a comparison to Beast Within. That's a completely different type of effect. No idea why you would even think that. I just used it as an example for a "random 3/3" (your words) having an actual board impact, even later in the game. It is not a finisher, but it is an actual and suprisingly serious threat.
I did compare Scatter to the Winds to some other cards though. That is completely normal when trying to evaluate a new card. You compare it to cards with similar effects. Similar effects, not identical effects. Of course those older cards have differences to the new card. It would be completely silly and a waste of time to bring up every single nuance and difference to the new card though. (Draining Whelk can be killed with a simple Shock or even Lava Dart while its trigger is on the stack! That is a totally relevant downside compared to Scatter that should be mentioned every single time those two cards are mentioned together! No, wait, nevermind, that should usually not be necessary.) Unless you want to make a point about those specific differences, it would be completely pointless. Scatter has a "counter + threat" mode, so I brought up other "counter + threat" cards, like Mystic Snake, Desertion and Draining Whelk. If you think that I shouldn't do this without going into every single detail, than you are basically setting way too high standards for what was meant to be just a simple evaluation of a new card. I am terribly sorry that I didn't take the time to satisfy your personal high standards for card comparisons.
Lastly, the cost is fine and the card is better than all other 3 mana counters except for Forbid. Dissolve is close enough that I can see arguments for running it over Scatter. Thinking that Hinder and Dissipate are better though is just way off base and shows that you are way undervalueing Scatter's power.
Capsize is the only one I wouldn't cut from that list.
Capsize is actually another fine comparison. Nobody would run a 1UU Boomerang, but with a strong 6cc mode strapped to it, it becomes good. I also think Scatter is the second best 1UU counterspell behind Forbid. That said, I don't know if I need a second 1UU counterspell at 540.
Nah, Capsize is weak. The only reason it was good is because you got value from bouncing 3cc+ anything and could just ignore the crappy little 2CC or less creatures bouncing off you. Now that those creatures are more numerous and just better, turn 3 Capsize is a horrible play, and turn 6 it's just mediocre. It was at its best turn 12+ where you could double Capsize, thus overwhelming your opponent's ability to play through the Capsize barrier.
The quality of the other bounce is really what ultimately killed Capsize. Now, even UUBoomerang isn't desireable, so the unkicked baseline on Capsize is nigh unplayable. You have to pay too big a premium for the 3cc mode in comparison to something cubeable than the other flexible value spells do. It's still a serviceable spell and a powerful card once you reach 6 mana in the right matchups, but it has lost a lot of its luster over the years thanks to the competition getting so much stiffer.
Because while the floor on Dissolve is higher, the ceiling is much lower. Counter + body effects are great, but they're all expensive, and have no value until you reach the late game. This card keeps the reasons why those cards are great, and shores up the weakness that they have in the midgame.
People are not arguing that this spell is going to replace any of the 2CC staples, only that it seems good enough to be include in a 450-540 and more cube as a second 3CC counterspell, next to the well known Forbid. And I think they're right. In fact, chances of seeing this counterspell becoming the second best option at 3 manas, where Dissolve has already failed, are pretty high because of the useful and powerful flexibility it offers.
I guess the hard part I have is that I didn't think cancel was that close to cubable. Yes my blue decks love counterspells but there are a variety of 2 casting cost options people don't play because they have restrictions(which I feel are less restrictive than a thrid mana) I play daze and force of will which have free modes because my control decks react to slowly (And I don't even have moxes). In the decks that durdle until turn 3, they should be doing something on 3 to get to that wrath or neutralize the threat on board.
Forbid is in a class by itself because it is basically a combo card that has cancel as a back up option. There is a reason it is the only one. Maybe if we were talking about awaken 5 or if the creature had flying or something than it is an end game work working to. But as a control player the last thing I want is my valuable 6th land lightning bolted before i can cast Consecrated Sphinz.
Play it as a Cancel? No, you've put that card for pretty much for one job, getting value with awaken.
No, I would play the card for two jobs: value with awaken or Cancel. Not playing it as Cancel when you need to, hoping for value later would be a bad play. Nobody would argue for this cards inclusion if it had no Cancel mode.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yes, when you have 6 mana, of course you don't play it as a Cancel.
I think you have a point in the Scatter 6cc mode not being that great. It's only a 3/3 (not whatever you countered as with Desertion), only has haste if you have 7 mana, costs you a land if it gets killed. That's all true. Still good enough to be considered, but not amazing.
Burst has two subpar modes. Saying they are both good is false. Neither are remotely cubeable alone (in the Lightning Blast example, not even with a 1 discount!) but the flexibility is great.
Scatter has two subpar modes too. Again, the flexibility is good.
Again, the six mana mode being bad because you might lose your land is just incorrect. If you are really in a position where losing a single land might make or break the game - I cannot think of many situations in my long cubing past where this is at all true - then just play the 3 mana option. It doesn't force to you play bad Magic. Honestly, having lands become threats is on the contrary great for control, because you have a higher proportion of them in your deck and they are often expendable chaff in the late-game. Even if my opponent removes my land it's probably a mild annoyance at absolute worst, and hey they just used removal - one less for my bombs.
If your 6th land is absolutely critical for your ability to win the game, don't awaken your land. Just Cancel in that case; that's what the mode is there for. Having the option built in to the card doesn't force you to play bad Magic.
And both of Burst's modes are trash. The value is all in the flexibility. Same goes here. And Burst's 5cc mode can definitely be played in a situation where it would have a drawback compared to it's 1cc mode; largely issues with tapping out. But if dropping your defenses and tapping 5 mana for a Lightning Blast isn't the right risk to take, you can take another line instead. Same with Scatter.
I think people are being way too harsh on burst lightning's first mode. 2 damage instant speed is totally decent and with all the aggressive creatures in cube, it's not that far off from 3 damage in the early game anyway. If you are comparing it to Lightning Bolt, you should stop doing that because Lightning Bolt is way over the curve.
I also agree that people are blowing the "drawback" on Scatter way out of proportion. You only cast that card for the awaken cost if there is a clear benefit in doing so. Much like Burst Lightning, I expect Scatter to function in it's cheaper mode most of the time. And that mode is serviceable much in the same way shock is.
The more I think about this card the more I believe it will be pretty decent. I doubt it will be amazing and a year from now I'll be surprised if any smaller cubes are still running it. But I might be under estimating how playable cancel is in cube.
Burst Lightning's modes are serviceable, and they can work for you in multiple stages of the game. But neither mode is good, as there are several strictly better versions of both modes that aren't cubed at all. Cancel and Shock are both far from cubeworthy on their own, but all they need to push them into playability is another mode that can push their ceilings; both BL and Scatter have that.
Cancel isn't even that far from being cubeworthy, ignoring for a moment all the just-barely strictly better versions. Larger cubes have utilized Dissipate for years, despite it being very meager upgrade. Cube is an environment with a lot of powerful synergies and haymakers, so the value of countermagic on the whole goes up. You don't much care about how "awful" Cancel is when it comes time to counter your opponent's game-winning Martial Coup.
And yeah, if you're worried about your land getting blown up and need more mana, just don't cast it with awaken. It's only ever going to be a problem if you played incorrectly.
I think our definitions of playable removal are different. Because you could run shock in cube and it would certainly be underwhelming, but if that was the power of your removal suite it would get played and it would work and your meta wouldn't break. It's not unplayable in the sense that something like Craw Wurm would be. Pretty much any removal is playable and that's an important distinction.
Firebolt is a staple in pretty much every cube, and it's worse than shock most of the time. The 2 for 1 potential of that card is often not impactful enough by the time you have 5 mana for the flashback. I see that all the time. I think Burst Lightning is better than that card because there are plenty of times I'm absolutely falling over myself to pay 5 mana for 4 damage because of how much work 4 damage can do versus 2 in the late game. I love burst lightning in case that isn't obvious.
A little off topic from Scatter, but I see a lot of people really underselling Burst Lightning's first mode to make a parallel to Scatter and I don't think they are being fair in doing so.
Ive recently added Galvanic Blast. Ive found that Shock with a little upside is definitely playable. There are a lot of creatures it kills for little mana investment. Personally id rather play Shock than Volcanic Hammer in my cube. So to me if Shock with a little flexibility/ upside is playable so are the Cancel variants, at 720 anyway.
A little off topic from Scatter, but I see a lot of people really underselling Burst Lightning's first mode to make a parallel to Scatter and I don't think they are being fair in doing so.
I also see people overselling the first mode of Burst Lightning to diminish the value of Scatter, when Shock and Cancel are in a very similar league of cards. They're both serviceable in the right situations, and only need a small (but relevant) push to make them worthwhile.
I also think that the suite of available burn that can go into the cube is rather deep, but the shelf of "next-level" countermagic is rather shallow.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I still play rift, it is my bounce of choice but that is just me.
Capsize is the only one I wouldn't cut from that list.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
I never made a comparison to Beast Within. That's a completely different type of effect. No idea why you would even think that. I just used it as an example for a "random 3/3" (your words) having an actual board impact, even later in the game. It is not a finisher, but it is an actual and suprisingly serious threat.
I did compare Scatter to the Winds to some other cards though. That is completely normal when trying to evaluate a new card. You compare it to cards with similar effects. Similar effects, not identical effects. Of course those older cards have differences to the new card. It would be completely silly and a waste of time to bring up every single nuance and difference to the new card though. (Draining Whelk can be killed with a simple Shock or even Lava Dart while its trigger is on the stack! That is a totally relevant downside compared to Scatter that should be mentioned every single time those two cards are mentioned together! No, wait, nevermind, that should usually not be necessary.) Unless you want to make a point about those specific differences, it would be completely pointless. Scatter has a "counter + threat" mode, so I brought up other "counter + threat" cards, like Mystic Snake, Desertion and Draining Whelk. If you think that I shouldn't do this without going into every single detail, than you are basically setting way too high standards for what was meant to be just a simple evaluation of a new card. I am terribly sorry that I didn't take the time to satisfy your personal high standards for card comparisons.
Lastly, the cost is fine and the card is better than all other 3 mana counters except for Forbid. Dissolve is close enough that I can see arguments for running it over Scatter. Thinking that Hinder and Dissipate are better though is just way off base and shows that you are way undervalueing Scatter's power.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Capsize is actually another fine comparison. Nobody would run a 1UU Boomerang, but with a strong 6cc mode strapped to it, it becomes good. I also think Scatter is the second best 1UU counterspell behind Forbid. That said, I don't know if I need a second 1UU counterspell at 540.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Forbid is in a class by itself because it is basically a combo card that has cancel as a back up option. There is a reason it is the only one. Maybe if we were talking about awaken 5 or if the creature had flying or something than it is an end game work working to. But as a control player the last thing I want is my valuable 6th land lightning bolted before i can cast Consecrated Sphinz.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
The selling point of the card is having OPTIONS open to you.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
No, I would play the card for two jobs: value with awaken or Cancel. Not playing it as Cancel when you need to, hoping for value later would be a bad play. Nobody would argue for this cards inclusion if it had no Cancel mode.
I think you have a point in the Scatter 6cc mode not being that great. It's only a 3/3 (not whatever you countered as with Desertion), only has haste if you have 7 mana, costs you a land if it gets killed. That's all true. Still good enough to be considered, but not amazing.
Scatter has two subpar modes too. Again, the flexibility is good.
Again, the six mana mode being bad because you might lose your land is just incorrect. If you are really in a position where losing a single land might make or break the game - I cannot think of many situations in my long cubing past where this is at all true - then just play the 3 mana option. It doesn't force to you play bad Magic. Honestly, having lands become threats is on the contrary great for control, because you have a higher proportion of them in your deck and they are often expendable chaff in the late-game. Even if my opponent removes my land it's probably a mild annoyance at absolute worst, and hey they just used removal - one less for my bombs.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
And both of Burst's modes are trash. The value is all in the flexibility. Same goes here. And Burst's 5cc mode can definitely be played in a situation where it would have a drawback compared to it's 1cc mode; largely issues with tapping out. But if dropping your defenses and tapping 5 mana for a Lightning Blast isn't the right risk to take, you can take another line instead. Same with Scatter.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I also agree that people are blowing the "drawback" on Scatter way out of proportion. You only cast that card for the awaken cost if there is a clear benefit in doing so. Much like Burst Lightning, I expect Scatter to function in it's cheaper mode most of the time. And that mode is serviceable much in the same way shock is.
The more I think about this card the more I believe it will be pretty decent. I doubt it will be amazing and a year from now I'll be surprised if any smaller cubes are still running it. But I might be under estimating how playable cancel is in cube.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
And yeah, if you're worried about your land getting blown up and need more mana, just don't cast it with awaken. It's only ever going to be a problem if you played incorrectly.
Cubetutor Link
Firebolt is a staple in pretty much every cube, and it's worse than shock most of the time. The 2 for 1 potential of that card is often not impactful enough by the time you have 5 mana for the flashback. I see that all the time. I think Burst Lightning is better than that card because there are plenty of times I'm absolutely falling over myself to pay 5 mana for 4 damage because of how much work 4 damage can do versus 2 in the late game. I love burst lightning in case that isn't obvious.
A little off topic from Scatter, but I see a lot of people really underselling Burst Lightning's first mode to make a parallel to Scatter and I don't think they are being fair in doing so.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I also see people overselling the first mode of Burst Lightning to diminish the value of Scatter, when Shock and Cancel are in a very similar league of cards. They're both serviceable in the right situations, and only need a small (but relevant) push to make them worthwhile.
I also think that the suite of available burn that can go into the cube is rather deep, but the shelf of "next-level" countermagic is rather shallow.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!