This is the type of thing that is very cube dependent. You might have a group that will skew a certain direction and have midrange/aggro players using rocks and you need more, you might support wildfire or artifact dec ( They can be 360 material but aren't necessarily). Also people's opinion of control decks vary greatly. There is almost always a B/X control deck in my group that does just fine without mana rocks. I have a player who like Grizis control and generally passes on signets, using black and red cheap one-for-one and getting ahead with blue draw.
The same argument wtwlf makes about signets I feel about the amount of fixing (I think 4 sets at 450 is pushing it, where he has mentioned that 405 is where he would add the 4th set).
It all has to do with the dynamics you are seeking to achieve in draft. I feel the ideal is where the end of packs aren't cluttered up with one type of card as being the idea state.
I'm going to assume this means signets are fine in large cubes but not in smaller or even midsize ones (because you said it was too much even for your own cube which is 540). There are a number of (tuned) 450 cubes that I reference that also run the signets. I definitely wouldn't call their cubes unhealthy and I'm sure they run the signets because it's "healthy" for their environments. And at 405 with the full set of signets, aggro still wins more than its fair share here.
It's not just my control decks that want them. My midrange decks want them. My Artifact, Wildfire, Reanimator, Spells Matter, Blink and Ramp decks want them. Even Kiki-Jiki wants them. Every deck here other than aggro wants these signets so yes decks have to compete for them and no there's not a "bottomless supply". If at least two thirds of decks want them and 10 is a bottomless supply well then there's a bottomless supply of a lot of other things...
I don't think generic control decks need them in order to be competitive. Most decks can be plenty competitive with 1-2 mana rocks, maybe 3 if the deck really wants them. Which between moxen, fast mana, 2cc rocks and all the other artifact mana in the cube, they can get ahold of if they prioritize them during the draft. I found 10 Signets to be WAY to many 2cc rocks in a small powered cube, because of all the other mana available. And it's not that decks don't want them, it's that they don't need that quantity of them in the draft for everybody to still be capable of building a competitive deck. Similar to fixing, you can have too much of a good thing.
But hey, all I can do is share my experiences. If the Signets work for you, that's awesome and I'm glad. They proved to be too many for my powered cube lists when I ran them, but of course that doesn't mean your playgroup is going to have the same experiences. Enjoy cubing with whatever configuration works best! Cube and let cube.
Quote from dschumm »
4 sets at 450 is pushing it, where he has mentioned that 405 is where he would add the 4th set
Probably not for me, but if people are trying to squeeze in a 4th set, they might be able to do it at that size if they take fixing out elsewhere so it's not oversaturated.
1)Power start -> Ob Nixilis is basically game over. This is One big advantage Ob nixilis has over a card like vraska, which I see it compared to occasionally. This is true for other good 5 mana cards in cube, but definitely not all. If your way of dealing with planeswalkers is attacking with creatures, and you don't have anything broken of yourself to catch up.... Ob nix ends the game.
Watched it pull it's weight a couple times. Further affirmed my opinion of him (450-540+ Planeswalker), but noticed a lot of people even in larger cubes are not looking at him.
2)I think I overrated Drana a bit. I didn't actually get to play her, but I had a deck that was basically perfect for her and ran the thought of experiment "if I had drana here, how good would she be" and it wasn't that great most of the time. Still think she's great, but I was anticipating her being on the flesh carver/ophiomancer tier in black agro decks...
Retracting that prediction.
3) Gideon, Played with him the most over the past month. He's very good, but not spectacular. a tier behind elspeth, but still plays in the same league. He's basically exactly as good as he looks.
4)I still believe people are sleeping on Quarantine Field :). Was discussing it with the best player in Toronto (Lucas Siow) and he was fully on board with it being great in cube in the right deck.
5) Played with scatter to the winds a few games, never came close to awakening, but was always great. Never underestimate "counter target spell" in cube Worked very well with the mix of mana leak, force spike, condescend type counters I had that my opponents were attempting to play around. Further reinforces that cancel isn't far from cube playable in itself.
6) Manlands are great BW one showed up for me again, and was much better than the filter land it replaced. No surprises here
Relative Evaluations:
Ob Nixilis +
Scatter to the winds =
Manlands =
Gideon =
Drana -
But the only power level opinion I'm confident in by now is Gideon and the man lands, everything else still developing experience with.
Thanks for the feedback on Quarantine Field. I really want to like that card, but I was so afraid of the floor that I overlooked the ceiling. A 6cc spell that exiles 2 nonland permanents would be an intriguing card, and this is very likely better than such an effect because of it's scalable nature. I may test it out myself and see how it does.
1)Power start -> Ob Nixilis is basically game over. This is One big advantage Ob nixilis has over a card like vraska, which I see it compared to occasionally. This is true for other good 5 mana cards in cube, but definitely not all. If your way of dealing with planeswalkers is attacking with creatures, and you don't have anything broken of yourself to catch up.... Ob nix ends the game.
Watched it pull it's weight a couple times. Further affirmed my opinion of him (450-540+ Planeswalker), but noticed a lot of people even in larger cubes are not looking at him.
Interesting, I'll probably test Ob Nixilis now based on this, thanks!
I take the Field, but then I've always found Fetters to be rather overrated. Getting O-Rings blown up is a downside, but there's plenty of problematic permanents that a Fetters just doesn't deal with. In a cube environment where needing a mana sink comes up surprisingly often, I'll take that huge upside over a lifegain effect that doesn't even matter against some decks.
Then again, "take upside" is basically my draft motto, so I'm pretty biased.
I like and know Faith's Fetters, so my instinct is to side with that card. But the ability to exile more than one permanent is a pretty big upside. I think I'd test Quarantine Field over it for a while and see which one performs better in the long run.
I'm also trying out the new Teetering Peeks style lands, mostly on the back of the black and green ones. A free volrath's stronghold activation and completely changing how your deck mulligans is a lot of upside for coming into play tapped.
* The two planeswalkers are low my priority list. I include them if I get them for cheap, but I am not going out of my way to acquire them.
So, that are 17 cards in total, even more than I initially expected. There are a few among those where I suppose they might not work out so well, but there are a few cards like this every set. So, all in all, BFZ is a pretty decent set for my cube.
I think Quarantine Field is probably much better than I gave it credit for. Instant scrutiny for white four drops though at this point, especially with adding Ravages of War very soon, and even Gideon had to have a good look-over before I slotted him in.
I don't like Ob Nix much.
Gideon and Drana are great. White goodstuff and Black aggro didn't need the extra ammo respectively, but we like upgrades here in cube land.
Seeing as I don't really post in my cube thread, my BFZ adds are going to look something like this, bearing in mind I'm making some other changes that I have left over from acquiring bits and pieces.
Dismember --> Despoiler of Souls - I dunno, I like it but black is so tight. Need more 1B aggro dudes please. Drana, Liberator of Malakir --> Xathrid Necromancer - Necromancer massively overperforms, but black three drops are just too congested and I've rather take an A-grade aggro card than a B-grade Staxy one Ruinous Path --> Brutal Hordechief - Easy, more PW bullets are great. Hordechief is just OK and am happy with other four drops.
RRR
Nowt to see here...
GGG
Woodland Wanderer --> Woodland Bellower - Bellower is OK but I don't need another six drop right now. Wanderer is pretty good and I wanted another stompy four drop.
Lavaclaw Reaches --> Dreadbore - I don't need Dreadbore as much with a more versatile removal coming in, and I want more manlands, even lesser ones. Lumbering Falls --> Trygon Predator Kiora, Master of the Depths --> Sagu Mauler - I'm totally OK running both Kioras. I will certainly miss Mauler, though. Magister of Worth --> Shambling Vent - Magister is an amazing ramp, control and reanimator card... but I can't cut Vindicate, Sorin or Souls. Shambling Vent is going to be useful in a bunch of decks.
I still haven't played with Field yet to confirm my predictions... Only time I saw it used was out of the sideboard in an agro deck and it was used as an expensive oring to take out a primevil titan.
I like Faith Fetter's a lot.. Only cut it due to over-saturation of similar effects and curve reasons. Why I'm testing Field is the upside. Suspect it's a great card in a subset of decks. Whereas fetter is "fine" everywhere.
Which is better for your cube is likely cube dependent. On first glance like Quarantine better in powered cubes that supports artifact ramp. It really wants a big mana deck or a deck that goes long for maximum blow out potential. Control decks in powered cubes are often built to generate more mana than in unpowered cubes (sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault and grim monolith). Targeting someone's moxen as a second or third target will likely be relevant.
Also, in "midrange heavy" large cubes, I think Quarantine field will be better.
in agro decks Fetters > Quarantine Field (likely sideboard only)
in control decks Fetters >= Quarantine Field (life gain is very relevant, maybe more so than the scaling)
in ramp decks/midrange Quarantine Field >>> Faith fetters.
The biggest complaint I've ever had with Faith Fetter's is it's inability to remove equipment from already equipped creatures. Have had that be relevant many many times.
@Goodking - I'm surprised with the Grafted Wargear cut. It's been extremely strong for us and I'd even cut one of the lower end Swords to keep it in (if there is no other cut). Many times I've boarded out a Sword in favour of the Wargear, and Swords feel more midrangy to me. That 0 equip cost makes all the difference in aggro and I value it very highly.
Goodking, that Grafted Wargear cut is so obvious I'm upset I didn't think of it before you. Wargear has been such a staple for so long that I never even thought of cutting it. The three-drop slot has gotten just disgustingly crowded lately.
I don't see why someonevwould want to cut Grafted Wargear... The card is absolutly insane. You got to be kidding.
It used to be a staple but still is. I alao think it's even better than some of the swords in a lot of agressive decks.
This x100. I pick Wargear over a Sword quite often in hard aggro. It also brings more to the cube then a fifth sword. Not that I am advocating cutting a Sword. Now that would be crazy talk
EDIT: Maybe if you don't support aggro. Then I might understand cutting it in a small cube.
The same argument wtwlf makes about signets I feel about the amount of fixing (I think 4 sets at 450 is pushing it, where he has mentioned that 405 is where he would add the 4th set).
It all has to do with the dynamics you are seeking to achieve in draft. I feel the ideal is where the end of packs aren't cluttered up with one type of card as being the idea state.
It's not just my control decks that want them. My midrange decks want them. My Artifact, Wildfire, Reanimator, Spells Matter, Blink and Ramp decks want them. Even Kiki-Jiki wants them. Every deck here other than aggro wants these signets so yes decks have to compete for them and no there's not a "bottomless supply". If at least two thirds of decks want them and 10 is a bottomless supply well then there's a bottomless supply of a lot of other things...
But hey, all I can do is share my experiences. If the Signets work for you, that's awesome and I'm glad. They proved to be too many for my powered cube lists when I ran them, but of course that doesn't mean your playgroup is going to have the same experiences. Enjoy cubing with whatever configuration works best! Cube and let cube.
Probably not for me, but if people are trying to squeeze in a 4th set, they might be able to do it at that size if they take fixing out elsewhere so it's not oversaturated.
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I find 10 2-mana artifact ramp to be too much and 0 to be too few.
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Some quick thoughts.
1)Power start -> Ob Nixilis is basically game over. This is One big advantage Ob nixilis has over a card like vraska, which I see it compared to occasionally. This is true for other good 5 mana cards in cube, but definitely not all. If your way of dealing with planeswalkers is attacking with creatures, and you don't have anything broken of yourself to catch up.... Ob nix ends the game.
Watched it pull it's weight a couple times. Further affirmed my opinion of him (450-540+ Planeswalker), but noticed a lot of people even in larger cubes are not looking at him.
2)I think I overrated Drana a bit. I didn't actually get to play her, but I had a deck that was basically perfect for her and ran the thought of experiment "if I had drana here, how good would she be" and it wasn't that great most of the time. Still think she's great, but I was anticipating her being on the flesh carver/ophiomancer tier in black agro decks...
Retracting that prediction.
3) Gideon, Played with him the most over the past month. He's very good, but not spectacular. a tier behind elspeth, but still plays in the same league. He's basically exactly as good as he looks.
4)I still believe people are sleeping on Quarantine Field :). Was discussing it with the best player in Toronto (Lucas Siow) and he was fully on board with it being great in cube in the right deck.
5) Played with scatter to the winds a few games, never came close to awakening, but was always great. Never underestimate "counter target spell" in cube Worked very well with the mix of mana leak, force spike, condescend type counters I had that my opponents were attempting to play around. Further reinforces that cancel isn't far from cube playable in itself.
6) Manlands are great BW one showed up for me again, and was much better than the filter land it replaced. No surprises here
Relative Evaluations:
Ob Nixilis +
Scatter to the winds =
Manlands =
Gideon =
Drana -
But the only power level opinion I'm confident in by now is Gideon and the man lands, everything else still developing experience with.
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Interesting, I'll probably test Ob Nixilis now based on this, thanks!
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I'd take Faith's Fetters, it's splashable and the life gain is very relevant.
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Then again, "take upside" is basically my draft motto, so I'm pretty biased.
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-It can deal with manland
-There's life gain
-the ETB effects doesn't trigger again if it got destroy
However, Field can deal with many more permanents and I view that as more important.
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I'm adding:
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (Gideon Jura, long hated)
Quarantine Field
Eldrazi Skyspawner (Whirler Rogue has shown blue loves tokens)
Scatter to the Winds
Clutch of Currents (Prowess)
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Ruinous Path (Can't get enough flexible answers)
Carrier Thrall
Zulaport Cutthroat
Greenwarden of Murasa
Retreat to Kazandu (I hope for a more fair Curse of Predation, but I'll probably be disappointed)
Seek the Wilds (I do wish it yarded the cards, but this is close enough to impulse I'm giving it a shot)
Catacomb Sifter (Solid stats and body, repeated value, ETB trigger, best friends with Gravecrawler/Evolutionary Leap, solid card)
Hedron Archive
Lumbering Falls
Shambling Vent
I'm also trying out the new Teetering Peeks style lands, mostly on the back of the black and green ones. A free volrath's stronghold activation and completely changing how your deck mulligans is a lot of upside for coming into play tapped.
Savannah Lions >> Expedition Envoy
* Ajani Goldmane >> Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Dissolve >> Scatter to the Winds
Thrill-Kill Assassin OR Reassembling Skeleton >> Carrier Thrall
Phyrexian Arena >> Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Malicious Affliction >> Ruinous Path
Heir to the Wilds OR Birthing Pod >> Scythe Leopard
Surrak, the Hunt Caller >> Woodland Wanderer
Genesis OR Vorapede >> Greenwarden of Murasa
Mana Reflection >> From Beyond
Deathrite Shaman >> Catacomb Sifter
Fire // Ice >> Herald of Kozilek
* Kiora, the Crashing Wave >> Kiora, Master of the Depths
Nevinyrral's Disk >> Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Basilisk Collar OR Lightning Greaves >> Hedron Archive
Temple of Silence >> Shambling Vent
Temple of Mystery >> Lumbering Falls
* The two planeswalkers are low my priority list. I include them if I get them for cheap, but I am not going out of my way to acquire them.
So, that are 17 cards in total, even more than I initially expected. There are a few among those where I suppose they might not work out so well, but there are a few cards like this every set. So, all in all, BFZ is a pretty decent set for my cube.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I don't like Ob Nix much.
Gideon and Drana are great. White goodstuff and Black aggro didn't need the extra ammo respectively, but we like upgrades here in cube land.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
WWW
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar --> Ojutai Exemplars - Most expendable four drop available
Ravages of War --> Mirran Crusader - Cuttable three drop for Geddon 2.0
UUU
Memory Lapse --> Aether Adept - for some reason, Memory Lapse wasn't in my cube... no idea why. Will also be looking for a cut for Scatter to the Winds, potentially.
BBB
Dismember --> Despoiler of Souls - I dunno, I like it but black is so tight. Need more 1B aggro dudes please.
Drana, Liberator of Malakir --> Xathrid Necromancer - Necromancer massively overperforms, but black three drops are just too congested and I've rather take an A-grade aggro card than a B-grade Staxy one
Ruinous Path --> Brutal Hordechief - Easy, more PW bullets are great. Hordechief is just OK and am happy with other four drops.
RRR
Nowt to see here...
GGG
Woodland Wanderer --> Woodland Bellower - Bellower is OK but I don't need another six drop right now. Wanderer is pretty good and I wanted another stompy four drop.
123
Hedron Archive --> Grafted Wargear - With 5 Swords, I'm good for 3 drop equipment, and 3 drops in general have got so much better that it's expendable now
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger --> Uncertain, may not be including Ulamog but he's on the fringes.
Engineered Explosives --> Dismember - Been meaning to move this to black for a while
Hangarback Walker --> Gemstone Mine - I have too much fixing now with the manlands.
WUBRG
Lavaclaw Reaches --> Dreadbore - I don't need Dreadbore as much with a more versatile removal coming in, and I want more manlands, even lesser ones.
Lumbering Falls --> Trygon Predator
Kiora, Master of the Depths --> Sagu Mauler - I'm totally OK running both Kioras. I will certainly miss Mauler, though.
Magister of Worth --> Shambling Vent - Magister is an amazing ramp, control and reanimator card... but I can't cut Vindicate, Sorin or Souls. Shambling Vent is going to be useful in a bunch of decks.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I still haven't played with Field yet to confirm my predictions... Only time I saw it used was out of the sideboard in an agro deck and it was used as an expensive oring to take out a primevil titan.
I like Faith Fetter's a lot.. Only cut it due to over-saturation of similar effects and curve reasons. Why I'm testing Field is the upside. Suspect it's a great card in a subset of decks. Whereas fetter is "fine" everywhere.
Which is better for your cube is likely cube dependent. On first glance like Quarantine better in powered cubes that supports artifact ramp. It really wants a big mana deck or a deck that goes long for maximum blow out potential. Control decks in powered cubes are often built to generate more mana than in unpowered cubes (sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault and grim monolith). Targeting someone's moxen as a second or third target will likely be relevant.
Also, in "midrange heavy" large cubes, I think Quarantine field will be better.
in agro decks Fetters > Quarantine Field (likely sideboard only)
in control decks Fetters >= Quarantine Field (life gain is very relevant, maybe more so than the scaling)
in ramp decks/midrange Quarantine Field >>> Faith fetters.
The biggest complaint I've ever had with Faith Fetter's is it's inability to remove equipment from already equipped creatures. Have had that be relevant many many times.
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Update to 500 (+50)
+ 25 colored
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Lone Missionary
-> Angel of Serenity
-> Ravages of War
-> Karakas
-> Terminus
-> Hokori, Dust Drinker
UUU
-> Thirst for Knowledge
-> Frost Titan
-> Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
-> shelldock isle
-> complicate
BBB
-> Reassembling Skeleton
-> Mardu Strike Leader
-> Sheoldred, Whispering One
RRR
-> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
-> chandra, the firebrand
-> chandra, the other one
-> fireball
-> ghitu slinger
GGG
-> Polukranos, World Eater
-> Tooth and Nail
-> Growth Spasm
-> Wall of Blossoms
WUBRG
Grenzo
-> Venser, the Sojourner
-> Shadowmage Infiltrator
-> Murderous Redcap
-> Terminate
-> Xenagos, the Reveler
-> Stirring Wildwood
-> Abrupt Decay
-> Gerrard's Verdict
-> Kiora, the Crashing Wave
-> Electrolyze
-> Lightning Helix
123
Brutal Hordechief
-> Ankh of Mishra
-> Icy Manipulator
-> Black Vise
-> Basalt Monolith
-> Precursor Golem
-> Ancient Tomb
-> Oblivion Stone
-> 5x Talismans
-> Hangarback Walker
Battle for Zendikar
-> Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
-> Drana, Liberator of Malakir
-> Ruinous Path
-> Greenwarden of Murada
-> Hedron Archive
-> Ulamog, the Ceaseless
-> Lumbering Falls
-> Shambling Vent
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It used to be a staple but still is. I also think it's even better than some of the swords in a lot of agressive decks.
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This x100. I pick Wargear over a Sword quite often in hard aggro. It also brings more to the cube then a fifth sword. Not that I am advocating cutting a Sword. Now that would be crazy talk
EDIT: Maybe if you don't support aggro. Then I might understand cutting it in a small cube.
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