Kozilek, the Great Distortion (Mythic) 8{<>}{<>}
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast ~, if you have fewer than seven cards in hand, draw cards equal to the difference.
Menace
Discard a card with with CMC X: Counter target spell with CMC X
12/12
Wastes (Common)
Basic Land
{T}: Add {<>} to your mana pool
Mirrorpool (Mythic)
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {<>} to your mana pool. 2{<>}, {T} Sacrifice ~: Copy target instant or sorcery spell you control. You may choose new targets for the copy. 4{<>}, {T} Sacrifice ~: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of target creature you control.
These may be fake but if so they're pretty high quality fakes with art that we've never seen before.
We have a new mana symbol and no idea what it means, but people are speculating that {<>} means exclusively colorless mana.
Edit: Forgot Kozilek's P/T
Edit 2: Updated the link since the original source has been taken down.
If <> works how I think it does (requires colorless mana, so Island doesn't produce it but Wasteland does), I sadly don't think these cards are going to work in most cube environments. People already stretch manabases to the limit as is, and only Painlands, Filterlands, and colorless utility lands will be able to produce <>, none of which you can get a consistent enough amount of. You'd probably have to be willing to play some number of Wastes, which makes your deck worse on the whole. Unless there are enough great cards to commit to making this a full-blown archetype, I just don't think it's going to mesh with cube as we know it.
If <> works how I think it does (requires colorless mana, so Island doesn't produce it but Wasteland does), I sadly don't think these cards are going to work in most cube environments. People already stretch manabases to the limit as is, and only Painlands, Filterlands, and colorless utility lands will be able to produce <>, none of which you can get a consistent enough amount of. You'd probably have to be willing to play some number of Wastes, which makes your deck worse on the whole. Unless there are enough great cards to commit to making this a full-blown archetype, I just don't think it's going to mesh with cube as we know it.
If this is true, I agree. I really don't think we can have productive discussion about this until we know what <> means.
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If <> works how I think it does (requires colorless mana, so Island doesn't produce it but Wasteland does), I sadly don't think these cards are going to work in most cube environments. People already stretch manabases to the limit as is, and only Painlands, Filterlands, and colorless utility lands will be able to produce <>, none of which you can get a consistent enough amount of. You'd probably have to be willing to play some number of Wastes, which makes your deck worse on the whole. Unless there are enough great cards to commit to making this a full-blown archetype, I just don't think it's going to mesh with cube as we know it.
i think these are fakes, so not worth worrying about, but you are forgetting manarocks, which I know I run quite a few of at least.
Although it does carry over the "theme" of bfz, of weird cards that require a bunch of synergy to be good.
Well, Wastes lacks a basic land type, so there's some interesting rules things going on here (if they're real). Without a land type, the card inherently has no text, as basic lands gets their mana abilities from their subtypes. This could be mitigated by the <> symbol standing for "t: add <>" on Wastes specifically. However, what if <> means mana produced by a basic land? They could add extra rules baggage that means lands with the basic SUPERtype have "t: add <>"? Or just that Wastes has "t: add 1" and <> just means any mana produced by a basic (think Snow, here). Could be interesting!
Good point on the mana rocks, but many of those tend to produce colored mana of some sort. It's possible that I'm overestimating the difficulty of producing "true colorless"... it's the kind of thing we'll need to do some serious analysis on, much like we did for devotion. Some other cards that come to mind that produce this mana are Boreal Druid, Channel, and Metalworker. Rampant Growth effects can also fetch a singleton Wastes.
As for Kozilek itself, I think I like it the least of the 10-11 mana Eldrazi, even past the mana restriction. He's the worst of the Titans when cheated into play, since his discard ability wants you to have a full grip and he doesn't have a devastating attack trigger. If you want to get value off the cast trigger, you need to make a real commitment to casting him, and you want to be worrying about whether you have enough enablers to cast your fatty instead of futzing around with extra fixing for one specific card in your deck.
In the future, if possible, please separate each card into its own thread. From the discussion take place here, it seems to be focusing on the Kozilek and the "6th color" of mtg. So please treat this thread as MCD on the 6th color of mtg for now.
The fact that all three of them are using original art that is stylistically consistent with current MTG art and also that they also make sense given what is supposed to be depicted (Kozilek is recognizably Kozilek) makes me think that these are real.
I think there are three likely scenarios for {<>}:
{<>} is shorthand for exclusively colorless mana, e.g. Sol Ring will now be {T}: Add {<>}{<>} to your mana pool.
{<>} is a supertype for mana, similar to Snow mana. {<>} mana can be produced by everything with a certain characteristic. It will be possible for something to be, say R and {<>} at the same time.
{<>} is actually a sixth color.
I lean towards #1 simply because it's a pretty elegant solution that still plays well with existing MTG cards.
I think there are three likely scenarios for {<>}:
{<>} is shorthand for exclusively colorless mana, e.g. Sol Ring will now be {T}: Add {<>}{<>} to your mana pool.
{<>} is a supertype for mana, similar to Snow mana. {<>} mana can be produced by everything with a certain characteristic. It will be possible for something to be, say R and {<>} at the same time.
{<>} is actually a sixth color.
I think (1) is the most likely here. It makes sense thematically (Eldrazi are all about colorless stuff) and places a restriction on these costs without making them too restrictive. Contrast this to (3): It would simply be too restrictice if {<>} could only be payed for with {<>}. It also makes less sense, since Eldrazi care about colorless mana, not a specific sixth color. Also, the {<>} symbol has the same color as colorless mana symbols. I think the wording of Wastes speaks against (2), since it neither has a supertype nor subtype that would support this theory.
[On the other hand, if {<>} could be payed for with any colorless mana, then why don't Wastes and Mirrorpool simply produce 1? Also, can {<>} mana be used to pay for colorless costs? I really do think that the latter must be true. Otherwise, running Wastes and other lands that only produce {<>} would be suicide, even in a deck full with {<>} costs. This brings us back to the first question though: Why don't these lands simply tap for 1? EDIT: Reading a few other threads, it appears most likely that {<>} will from now on be colorless mana as a ressource, so that a reprint of Sol Ring would indeed say "T: Add {<>}{<>} to your mana pool." which would finally solve an old problem with colorless mana: There would finally be a disctinction between colorless mana as a ressource and generic mana costs that can be payed for with colorless mana or colored mana of any kind.]
If it is indeed (1), then paying for {<>} could be manageable in cube without too much of a stretch. Everyone is already running some artifacts and some lands that produce colorless mana. (Btw, the inclusion of cards with {<>} costs would make painlands better.) Plus, you could just put a few Wastes into your basic land pool.
As for Kozilek himself: I am super sad that he doesn't cost 10. The additional restriction of two {<>}s in his cost makes him really hard to cast. And he isn't an artifact, so Tinker and mana from cards like Renowned Weaponsmith and Grand Architect can't be used. And if you cheat him out (through reanimation or Sneak effects) you don't get the card draw effect. I run 6 artifacts that produce at least 2, 1 that produces 1 and 12 lands that produce 1. So, unless a player gets almost all of the former or multiple of the latter, it seems necessary to play a few Wastes, which would hurt casting your colored spells. I would have cubed with Kozilek if his cost was 10. As is, he is almost uncastable and not that great to cheat into play.
Then again, if we get enough strong cards with {<>} costs, including them as a theme might be worth it. You just have to run a few Wastes. (Which can be fetched by most green land searchers, btw.) Mirrorpool for example looks pretty strong for a land.
I'm assuming that <> will function more like snow mana. So this Kozilek costs 10 total mana, 2 of which has to be <> mana. You won't be able to cast him with ten basic Islands. I'm also assuming that <> will count as regular old colorless mana. So you would be able to use a Wastes to cast a Sol Ring. If this is the case, then I don't see how any of the <> cards will find their way into the cube. It's just too narrow to really support.
Imho, it is technically a sixth color of mana. But it has some benefits and restrictions in comparison to purple:
Benefits:
As I understand it, <> replaces all instances of colorless mana production. That means colorless mana no longer is generic mana, but COLORLESS MANA as a technical color. Colorless mana being technically a color still makes it viable for paying generic mana cost on cards, like WUBRG do. So colorless mana does not equal generic mana anymore.
If all colorless mana producers now produce <>, it is like colorless mana existed as a technical color since Magic came out.
Restrictions:
Colorless only being a technical color and not a real color like WUBRG makes it inferior.
- It has no basic land type.
- It can't be named as color modifier. (like Alter Reality)
- Other things in the same vein.
I'd prefer if it was worded like Snow Mana is, but it doesn't work that easy, because lands are colorless. So 'colorless source' can't be the criterium for technical colorless mana. Hence, the new symbol.
---
TL;DR: For me it is the simple change from colorless mana == generic mana to colorless mana != generic mana.
Colorless mana existed since Magic came out and colorless mana has always been != generic mana. They have never been the same. The problem was simply that colorless mana and generic mana used the same mana symbols. Mark Rosewater wrote about this a few times and thought it was a huge problem, even if most players weren't aware of it. It seems that OGW finally introduces a distinct symbol for colorless mana. This doesn't change anything in the relation or properties of colorless and generic mana though. It simply means that there is finally a visual distinction between them that makes their mechanical distinction visible.
Also, <> can't be like snow mana! Snow mana was a property added to the color of mana. You never had just snow mana, you had "snow green" or "snow blue" or "snow colorless". This property was added by the supertype Snow. Now look at Wastes. It has only two mechanically relevant words: Basic and Land. Land is just the card type. So, the ability to produce mana at all (because as we can see, the card Wastes has no rules text) must come from the Basic supertype. Which is not a new supertype btw, so it can't suddenly add a property to the mana. Basic + basic land type define which color of mana the land produces for tapping. Without a basic land type, this can only be colorless mana. Plain and simple colorless mana. This means that <> is the new symbol for colorless mana. It is not like snow mana.
In short, OGW intruduces two things:
1. A new symbol for colorless mana as a ressource, to finally separate it from generic mana as a cost. This is not a rules change. Just a visual overhaul, like the new way Charms, Commands and other modal cards are written.
2. Colorless mana as a cost. This is brand new. So far, what appeared to be colorless costs were actually generic mana costs: Costs that could be paid for with any color of mana or colorless mana. Now we have colorless symbols in mana costs which means that those costs can only be paid for by colorless mana.
This is the interpretation of the three spoiled cards that makes by far the most sense. I am 99% sure that this is correct.
Even if Kozilek costed 10 I'd be pretty unimpressed. He's pretty much a big dude with Menace that dies to almost every kill spell, and unless you're casting it with 2 cards in hand you get the same as the other big K. You can reanimate him, but there are much better options already available for that. Pretty easy pass unless the <> is something completely different than what people are thinking.
I have to agree with star slayer's conclusions, it sounds quite like we will be getting, but this will affect cards from every single set if it is true. Example:
I play D&T in legacy. I can now only cast sword of fire and ice by using wastelands (appropriate given the name of the basic land) and Rishadan ports. I cannot use plains or Karakas to do it. This is such a major ripple to introduce in a small set that I think <> may mean something else.
Wrong. In Star Slayer's theory, when you add mana to your pool, it will be in the form of <> mana. Which can be used to satisfy 1 or <>. So colorless mana as a cost won't change at all. He's suggesting that colorless mana when it's produced will be displayed as <>.
..........
But more likely than not, they're not going to retrofit existing colorless mana producers, and you'll have to use new sources of <> mana to cast/activate <> cards.
I have to agree with star slayer's conclusions, it sounds quite like we will be getting, but this will affect cards from every single set if it is true. Example:
I play D&T in legacy. I can now only cast sword of fire and ice by using wastelands (appropriate given the name of the basic land) and Rishadan ports. I cannot use plains or Karakas to do it. This is such a major ripple to introduce in a small set that I think <> may mean something else.
<> = 1 or 1 mana of any color for a colorless spell or ability
This will interact flavorfully with devoid from the previous set, without breaking every colorless card ever printed. Also, it will function similarly to phyxerian mana.
Generic costs aren't going away, Kozilek and Mirrorpool both have them. Sword of Fire and Ice isn't some "ripple" since it isn't even changed by this.
I'm a little surprised that people are so hung up on new Kozi's cost (the strength of the card text aside). I can't imagine hard casting him without using a mana rock of some kind, and almost all of the commonly played mana rocks in Cube will give you two colorless mana with the big exceptions being Coalition Relic and the Signets. How many instances will you have 10 mana and not have at least two of it coming from colorless sources?
It definitely happens, especially in green ramp decks using Rofellos and Gilded Lotus and land untappers (Nissa) and mana doublers and stuff. You'd definitely need to check when deckbuilding to make sure you have enough colorless exclusive sources to play it.
But if what's more likely to be the case actually pans out, you'll need new <> sources to cast the new <> cards, and existing colorless mana producers won't work for you.
..........
The other option is that this new symbol is just "Eldrazi Mana" and is exclusive to this plane. There would be no retro changes to any of the existing colorless sources or rules, and only new cards that tap for <> can be used to satisfy those costs when you see them. They would print new <> rocks and more <>-producing nonbasics, and it would be a little niche mana experiment with this one set/plane. I kinda hope that's the case, just for simplicity's sake.
Both the "Eldrazi Mana" theory and the "Colorless Overhaul" theory seem plausible to me. But this mechanic being exclusive to this plane, and needing <> mana from new cards to cast/activate <> spells seems more likely.
The other option is that this new symbol is just "Eldrazi Mana" and is exclusive to this plane. There would be no retro changes to any of the existing colorless sources or rules, and only new cards that tap for <> can be used to satisfy those costs when you see them. They would print new <> rocks and more <>-producing nonbasics, and it would be a little niche mana experiment with this one set/plane. I kinda hope that's the case, just for simplicity's sake.
I hope that not the case, because that would be so very niche.
<> as producing colorless mana, and requiring colorless mana in costs, would be an errata/rewording of many, many cards, but at least it opens the design space up and we would see it in future sets too.
Thran Dynamo reading T: add <><><> to your mana pool, may look a bit strange at first, but not stranger than something like Soulbright Flamekin, ha.
It would be niche, and it would probably kill a lot of potential cube activity ...but it's so much easier! and I'm an old, lazy, crotchety Magic player and that option is so easy!
I'm a little surprised that people are so hung up on new Kozi's cost (the strength of the card text aside). I can't imagine hard casting him without using a mana rock of some kind, and almost all of the commonly played mana rocks in Cube will give you two colorless mana with the big exceptions being Coalition Relic and the Signets. How many instances will you have 10 mana and not have at least two of it coming from colorless sources?
8<><> is a lot harder to cast than 10 in cube. And 10 is already pretty hard to cast. As I said earlier, I run only 6 cards that produce two or more colorless mana, plus 13 that produce a single one. And the only commonly used ones that I don't run are Ancient Tomb, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith, because my cube is unpowered. I could add 5 more if I replaced my Scars fastlands with the allied painlands though. And maybe 1 or 2 more by switching some of my miscellaneous lands around. Even if I do so, that is still not that much.
Hardcasting new Kozilek can draw me a lot of cards. I expect 4-6 in a usual case, considering that he will be at the top of the curve. I'd be fine paying 10 for him. Requiring two of those mana to be colorless puts quite some restrictions on the deck though. I probably would have to run a few Wastes to cast him reliably. And at that point, I think he is no longer worth it. A real shame. I was pretty sure that Kozilek was in OGW and I was looking forward to running double Kozilek next to my double Ulamog. Turns out he is in the set, but too hard to use profitably.
Btw, I googled a bit, but couldn't find the old Making Magic article in which Rosewater was talking about the problem of colorless mana using the same symbols as generic mana costs. I found two posts on his tumblr though that indirectly talk about it (this one and this one). Also, it seems that Aaron Forsythe mentioned the possibility of printing a colorless-producing basic land a year ago (here is a thread about it)!?
Kozilek, the Great Distortion (Mythic)
8{<>}{<>}
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast ~, if you have fewer than seven cards in hand, draw cards equal to the difference.
Menace
Discard a card with with CMC X: Counter target spell with CMC X
12/12
Wastes (Common)
Basic Land
{T}: Add {<>} to your mana pool
Mirrorpool (Mythic)
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {<>} to your mana pool.
2{<>}, {T} Sacrifice ~: Copy target instant or sorcery spell you control. You may choose new targets for the copy.
4{<>}, {T} Sacrifice ~: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of target creature you control.
These may be fake but if so they're pretty high quality fakes with art that we've never seen before.
We have a new mana symbol and no idea what it means, but people are speculating that {<>} means exclusively colorless mana.
Edit: Forgot Kozilek's P/T
Edit 2: Updated the link since the original source has been taken down.
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If this is true, I agree. I really don't think we can have productive discussion about this until we know what <> means.
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i think these are fakes, so not worth worrying about, but you are forgetting manarocks, which I know I run quite a few of at least.
Although it does carry over the "theme" of bfz, of weird cards that require a bunch of synergy to be good.
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As for Kozilek itself, I think I like it the least of the 10-11 mana Eldrazi, even past the mana restriction. He's the worst of the Titans when cheated into play, since his discard ability wants you to have a full grip and he doesn't have a devastating attack trigger. If you want to get value off the cast trigger, you need to make a real commitment to casting him, and you want to be worrying about whether you have enough enablers to cast your fatty instead of futzing around with extra fixing for one specific card in your deck.
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I think there are three likely scenarios for {<>}:
I lean towards #1 simply because it's a pretty elegant solution that still plays well with existing MTG cards.
Though, those new cards seems unlikely to be cubable... Sadly.
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[On the other hand, if {<>} could be payed for with any colorless mana, then why don't Wastes and Mirrorpool simply produce 1? Also, can {<>} mana be used to pay for colorless costs? I really do think that the latter must be true. Otherwise, running Wastes and other lands that only produce {<>} would be suicide, even in a deck full with {<>} costs. This brings us back to the first question though: Why don't these lands simply tap for 1? EDIT: Reading a few other threads, it appears most likely that {<>} will from now on be colorless mana as a ressource, so that a reprint of Sol Ring would indeed say "T: Add {<>}{<>} to your mana pool." which would finally solve an old problem with colorless mana: There would finally be a disctinction between colorless mana as a ressource and generic mana costs that can be payed for with colorless mana or colored mana of any kind.]
If it is indeed (1), then paying for {<>} could be manageable in cube without too much of a stretch. Everyone is already running some artifacts and some lands that produce colorless mana. (Btw, the inclusion of cards with {<>} costs would make painlands better.) Plus, you could just put a few Wastes into your basic land pool.
As for Kozilek himself: I am super sad that he doesn't cost 10. The additional restriction of two {<>}s in his cost makes him really hard to cast. And he isn't an artifact, so Tinker and mana from cards like Renowned Weaponsmith and Grand Architect can't be used. And if you cheat him out (through reanimation or Sneak effects) you don't get the card draw effect. I run 6 artifacts that produce at least 2, 1 that produces 1 and 12 lands that produce 1. So, unless a player gets almost all of the former or multiple of the latter, it seems necessary to play a few Wastes, which would hurt casting your colored spells. I would have cubed with Kozilek if his cost was 10. As is, he is almost uncastable and not that great to cheat into play.
Then again, if we get enough strong cards with {<>} costs, including them as a theme might be worth it. You just have to run a few Wastes. (Which can be fetched by most green land searchers, btw.) Mirrorpool for example looks pretty strong for a land.
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Benefits:
As I understand it, <> replaces all instances of colorless mana production. That means colorless mana no longer is generic mana, but COLORLESS MANA as a technical color. Colorless mana being technically a color still makes it viable for paying generic mana cost on cards, like WUBRG do. So colorless mana does not equal generic mana anymore.
If all colorless mana producers now produce <>, it is like colorless mana existed as a technical color since Magic came out.
Restrictions:
Colorless only being a technical color and not a real color like WUBRG makes it inferior.
- It has no basic land type.
- It can't be named as color modifier. (like Alter Reality)
- Other things in the same vein.
I'd prefer if it was worded like Snow Mana is, but it doesn't work that easy, because lands are colorless. So 'colorless source' can't be the criterium for technical colorless mana. Hence, the new symbol.
---
TL;DR: For me it is the simple change from colorless mana == generic mana to colorless mana != generic mana.
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Also, <> can't be like snow mana! Snow mana was a property added to the color of mana. You never had just snow mana, you had "snow green" or "snow blue" or "snow colorless". This property was added by the supertype Snow. Now look at Wastes. It has only two mechanically relevant words: Basic and Land. Land is just the card type. So, the ability to produce mana at all (because as we can see, the card Wastes has no rules text) must come from the Basic supertype. Which is not a new supertype btw, so it can't suddenly add a property to the mana. Basic + basic land type define which color of mana the land produces for tapping. Without a basic land type, this can only be colorless mana. Plain and simple colorless mana. This means that <> is the new symbol for colorless mana. It is not like snow mana.
In short, OGW intruduces two things:
1. A new symbol for colorless mana as a ressource, to finally separate it from generic mana as a cost. This is not a rules change. Just a visual overhaul, like the new way Charms, Commands and other modal cards are written.
2. Colorless mana as a cost. This is brand new. So far, what appeared to be colorless costs were actually generic mana costs: Costs that could be paid for with any color of mana or colorless mana. Now we have colorless symbols in mana costs which means that those costs can only be paid for by colorless mana.
This is the interpretation of the three spoiled cards that makes by far the most sense. I am 99% sure that this is correct.
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Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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Wrong. In Star Slayer's theory, when you add mana to your pool, it will be in the form of <> mana. Which can be used to satisfy 1 or <>. So colorless mana as a cost won't change at all. He's suggesting that colorless mana when it's produced will be displayed as <>.
..........
But more likely than not, they're not going to retrofit existing colorless mana producers, and you'll have to use new sources of <> mana to cast/activate <> cards.
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Generic costs aren't going away, Kozilek and Mirrorpool both have them. Sword of Fire and Ice isn't some "ripple" since it isn't even changed by this.
But if what's more likely to be the case actually pans out, you'll need new <> sources to cast the new <> cards, and existing colorless mana producers won't work for you.
..........
The other option is that this new symbol is just "Eldrazi Mana" and is exclusive to this plane. There would be no retro changes to any of the existing colorless sources or rules, and only new cards that tap for <> can be used to satisfy those costs when you see them. They would print new <> rocks and more <>-producing nonbasics, and it would be a little niche mana experiment with this one set/plane. I kinda hope that's the case, just for simplicity's sake.
Both the "Eldrazi Mana" theory and the "Colorless Overhaul" theory seem plausible to me. But this mechanic being exclusive to this plane, and needing <> mana from new cards to cast/activate <> spells seems more likely.
Also, it could all be fake, lol.
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I hope that not the case, because that would be so very niche.
<> as producing colorless mana, and requiring colorless mana in costs, would be an errata/rewording of many, many cards, but at least it opens the design space up and we would see it in future sets too.
Thran Dynamo reading T: add <><><> to your mana pool, may look a bit strange at first, but not stranger than something like Soulbright Flamekin, ha.
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Hardcasting new Kozilek can draw me a lot of cards. I expect 4-6 in a usual case, considering that he will be at the top of the curve. I'd be fine paying 10 for him. Requiring two of those mana to be colorless puts quite some restrictions on the deck though. I probably would have to run a few Wastes to cast him reliably. And at that point, I think he is no longer worth it. A real shame. I was pretty sure that Kozilek was in OGW and I was looking forward to running double Kozilek next to my double Ulamog. Turns out he is in the set, but too hard to use profitably.
Btw, I googled a bit, but couldn't find the old Making Magic article in which Rosewater was talking about the problem of colorless mana using the same symbols as generic mana costs. I found two posts on his tumblr though that indirectly talk about it (this one and this one). Also, it seems that Aaron Forsythe mentioned the possibility of printing a colorless-producing basic land a year ago (here is a thread about it)!?
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG