My apologies if there's already a SCD thread on P. Arena; if there is, Google failed me.
So I still see people running this card even in 450 powered lists, and I'm wondering why. Two turns after you've played it, it's finally drawn you as many cards as a Divination – hardly anybody's idea of a cube staple. It's also done you two damage along the way, and had a more difficult casting cost.
But perhaps one should compare black cards to other black cards... yet few people are running things like Night's Whisper any more, or Read the Bones, which offers card selection for an additional mana.
I also don't know what deck wants to run this. It doesn't seem like aggro wants to spend the hypothetical turn three doing nothing and sandbagging for the late game. Yet control risks getting run over if they do nothing turn three and plan to take incremental damage in subsequent turns. Maybe some kind of grindy, Jund-y midrange deck?
Anyhow, your thoughts? Have you already cut PA? Is it close to the chopping block? Or is it a stalwart that you don't imagine getting cut soon?
I much prefer Arena, because it's the hardest to remove for the matchup where you need it the most, which is midrange against control. The games also extend to a length in that matchup where it will generate a lot more card advantage than any of the other options. It's not as good against aggro, but that doesn't matter much considering it gets played in decks that already beat up on aggro decks pretty well. It draws cards faster (and therefore draws more overall cards) than Muse, and it's much harder to get off the table. And the ceiling isn't capped like the 1-shot draw effects are, which already aren't great in the matchups where Arena struggles anyways. It's an old school card, but it still does the job it's included for better than the competition does.
It's a midrange tool against control; helps where the deck struggles the most. It's hard to remove, and generates a lot of card advantage in that matchup where games go particularly long. I have no plans on cutting it anytime soon.
If you're looking for a card advantage card to play in control rather than against it, I suggest using one of the 1-shot effects; probably Read the Bones. But if you want a card that's good against control, Arena is the best option by a good margin.
I've already cut it; I certainly don't miss it. My cubers and I found that the card needed to be cast on turn 3 or earlier; any later, and it was often set aside for higher impact spells, or life totals were such that casting it would put it precariously low. The Control decks, at least in my Cube environment, are usually proactively enough that simple sitting on an Arena and grinding out card advantage is not enough.
I've cut Phyrexian Arena a few months ago. It's a good card in some grindy matchups, but it is bad in and against fast decks. I kept wishing that it was just "1BB - Sorcery - Draw three cards and lose three life.". At this point, I think I'd include Read the Bones or even Painful Truths over it. Which is sad, since it is a pretty cool card depicting an important scene from the Weatherlight saga. Creatures have gotten better and games have gotten faster in my cube over the years though, so Arena has become too slow in comparison.
We also cut it some time ago. I never felt that it was a specific tool for that midrange-control match-up, rather a generically decent black value spell which could work in aggro, midrange or control alike. As my cube got faster though, it became less attractive owing to how slow it is. I am still running Muse, since getting some board presence for the extra 1 offsets the major problem with Arena, which is how it accrues reasonable value by three turns later, whilst not impacting the board in any way on a critical 3rd turn. However, Muse is cuttable when we get the next four drop bomb, where black is a bit shallow. Arena would still be playable if not for the glut of ridiculous 3 drops we have been gifted with.
I like Read the Bones a lot as well. But it and Phyrexian Arena play a very different role in the cube. RtB is nice for combo oriented strategies because it cheaply let you look through 4 cards in order to find pieces you need. That represent about 15% of your library on turn 3. Definitly interesting roleplayer then. It can also be decent in control to act like a pseudo Divination. But losing 2 life in the processus could be game ending sometimes. PA is for midrange and aggro. In those decks, it acts like slow but effective card advantage engine. The window for it in aggro is turn 2 to 4. In midrange, it is kind of good at any stage of the game, and even more if you can counterbalance the life loss by some card like Thragtusk and stuff. For those reason, I think it is not accurate to compare both cards. Their fonction are just so different.
Phyrexian Arena is one of my favorite cards, but I like drafting slow, grindy decks that want an extra card per turn. Still, it works well enough for us, and even without my clear bias I don't think I would cut it.
I also love how something has to die (i.e. your 1 life) in order to get a true champion out of the fight (the champion being the card.) Flavor isn't the determining factor, but it helps.
Phyrexian Arena is one of my favorite cards, but I like drafting slow, grindy decks that want an extra card per turn. Still, it works well enough for us, and even without my clear bias I don't think I would cut it.
I also love how something has to die (i.e. your 1 life) in order to get a true champion out of the fight (the champion being the card.) Flavor isn't the determining factor, but it helps.
Have been thinking this card. Does it still have a place in cube? My experience lately that it's been too slow, doesn't do anything when you cast it, and you don't get the immediacy like you would with other black draw spells. As cube has sped up, Phyrexian Arena has stayed the same speed and I'm seeing that be a liability more and more.
It's still great in slow, grindy match ups, but so are a lot of cards. It feels almost like too much of a silver bullet in that regard, and I've been thinking about cutting it.
What's your opinion? Do you still run Arena? Are you wanting to cut it? Why or why not?
Phyrexian Arena is one of those cards that I see across the table much more than I play myself. Unless I’m playing hard aggro, I always see it as a threat that must be countered or immediately destroyed. In a standard 8 man draft where aggro is 12.5/25% of the field, I still like Phyrexian Arena a lot. Who doesn’t love a 3-mana one-sided monarch?
There have been a number of games I've been in non-aggro where I look across the table, see the Phyrexian Arena played, and it's just like 'OK time for my busted play' and their side looks really bad. If it was actually monarch and drew a card that turn, I think it would be a lot different, but waiting a turn for that first card can be really brutal/underwhelming, especially when you aren't casting it on exactly t3 or close to that.
That's the other aspect too--I don't like how my card draw spell can be Disenchanted. At least with Read the Bones and other variants I get where I need to be and can scry, but when my opponent is disenchanting the card advantage engine it's brutal to pay 3 mana and get literal nothing but baiting out a disenchant. The fact that I can destroy it feels like a major weakness in comparison to other draw spells which can only be countered and immediately get you the cards for the same life-cost. I get that Arena's role is in more grindy matchups, but getting your grind engine destroyed really sucks.
----------------------------------
As an aside Steve: your post says 'Notes: L' but when I quote it that doesn't show up. Just curious, what is that?
It breaks the slower, grindier matchups wide open. You just have to decide if that scenario shows up often enough in your cube to justify its inclusion. It's currently riding the boards for me, but I'm always looking for an excuse to bring it back in. It's a really good card.
I cut it a fair while back and honestly haven't missed it. It's good in very slow matchups, but takes three turns to be better than a Divination or Sign in Blood.
Fwiw, if you like Arena - I still like Graveborn Muse since it provides a body too, so it has at least some immediate board impact, and can often draw >1 card, but I don't play that either st the moment.
I still run it but I plan on cutting it soon. I agree it's good in grindy matches, but so are so many other cards and it's pretty bad in fast matchups. Amazing card but definitely showing it's age IMO.
Wonder how a 2CC BB version that costs 2 life per turn would fare in cube...
I think it would become a liability too quickly, look at how powerful a 2/1 compared to a 1/1 is. At least with a card like Dark Confidant you sometimes pay 0 and it beats for 2.
I would give it a shot but it might be a little too steep in terms of life.
My apologies if there's already a SCD thread on P. Arena; if there is, Google failed me.
So I still see people running this card even in 450 powered lists, and I'm wondering why. Two turns after you've played it, it's finally drawn you as many cards as a Divination – hardly anybody's idea of a cube staple. It's also done you two damage along the way, and had a more difficult casting cost.
But perhaps one should compare black cards to other black cards... yet few people are running things like Night's Whisper any more, or Read the Bones, which offers card selection for an additional mana.
I also don't know what deck wants to run this. It doesn't seem like aggro wants to spend the hypothetical turn three doing nothing and sandbagging for the late game. Yet control risks getting run over if they do nothing turn three and plan to take incremental damage in subsequent turns. Maybe some kind of grindy, Jund-y midrange deck?
Anyhow, your thoughts? Have you already cut PA? Is it close to the chopping block? Or is it a stalwart that you don't imagine getting cut soon?
It's a midrange tool against control; helps where the deck struggles the most. It's hard to remove, and generates a lot of card advantage in that matchup where games go particularly long. I have no plans on cutting it anytime soon.
If you're looking for a card advantage card to play in control rather than against it, I suggest using one of the 1-shot effects; probably Read the Bones. But if you want a card that's good against control, Arena is the best option by a good margin.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Check out the Cube Discord channel here
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
I also love how something has to die (i.e. your 1 life) in order to get a true champion out of the fight (the champion being the card.) Flavor isn't the determining factor, but it helps.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Have been thinking this card. Does it still have a place in cube? My experience lately that it's been too slow, doesn't do anything when you cast it, and you don't get the immediacy like you would with other black draw spells. As cube has sped up, Phyrexian Arena has stayed the same speed and I'm seeing that be a liability more and more.
It's still great in slow, grindy match ups, but so are a lot of cards. It feels almost like too much of a silver bullet in that regard, and I've been thinking about cutting it.
What's your opinion? Do you still run Arena? Are you wanting to cut it? Why or why not?
Also: we miss you Spike Rogue <3
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
That's the other aspect too--I don't like how my card draw spell can be Disenchanted. At least with Read the Bones and other variants I get where I need to be and can scry, but when my opponent is disenchanting the card advantage engine it's brutal to pay 3 mana and get literal nothing but baiting out a disenchant. The fact that I can destroy it feels like a major weakness in comparison to other draw spells which can only be countered and immediately get you the cards for the same life-cost. I get that Arena's role is in more grindy matchups, but getting your grind engine destroyed really sucks.
----------------------------------
As an aside Steve: your post says 'Notes: L' but when I quote it that doesn't show up. Just curious, what is that?
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Sometimes I stream on twitch.tv/Game_Haus
Come trade with Puca Trade!, the best place to get those hard to get cards no one else will trade!
Fwiw, if you like Arena - I still like Graveborn Muse since it provides a body too, so it has at least some immediate board impact, and can often draw >1 card, but I don't play that either st the moment.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I think it would become a liability too quickly, look at how powerful a 2/1 compared to a 1/1 is. At least with a card like Dark Confidant you sometimes pay 0 and it beats for 2.
I would give it a shot but it might be a little too steep in terms of life.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear