I think it's pretty good, double strike in a guild with access to anthems and burn (to get through creatures with more than 2 toughness) is scary.
We already knew that this would CIPT, no surprise here. In hard aggro having 5 lands to activate it is a lot, when you want to be winning on turn 5-7, but this is a great backup when things are not going as planned and you're not winning that fast.
I don't know how much more... I just know I wasn't wow'd. I wanted to be wow'd. Whatever creature it becomes, it's going into everyone's cube, I get it.
Umm... What I meant was UR won't care as much as WR will. A cip tapped land is a huge drawback for aggressive decks which is a majority of my Boros decks. Sure we have ones that are midrange/control but it's not the majority. Since this is the case I wanted something with a higher power level.
Looking at the raw stats, I understand it's hard to be wowed. It's been years since the Worldwake manlands, things have changed a lot since then. Cubes are a lot stronger, in general there's much less room for inclusion, and Wizards is probably playing it safe. But four power for four mana is the going rate for a dual manafixing manaland. Are you saying you want something better than Raging Ravine? Even with the general toning down of BFZ's power, what we have here is a land that comes pretty close to the greatness of Ravine, Colonnade and Creeping Tar pit.
As for wow factor, I'm going to be wowed when this dude picks up a Bonesplitter, an Elspeth +1, or crashes in with any one of the battle cry, exalted or anthem effects that abound in these colors. In the meantime, this manland is one of the most important tools for Boros decks, and it's been a long time coming. You're right though, coming into play tapped is absolutely a tempo loss that Boros aggro doesn't want to deal with. I think the dual benefits of increasing manafixing and threat density outweigh that risk. You can mitigate it by sequencing your land drops and running a lower curve to minimize the tempo loss of one less land.
Now the next target is the fastland, which I hope we can both agree is quite crucial
No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with 4 mana for 4 power, however, there are plenty of 4-5 power for 4 mana cards that aren't being played because most cubes have moved past them. Also, this is more like 5 mana for 4 power.
The power to cost ratio isn't really the problem, though. It's the continued tying up of resources that is the major concern. It's not uncommon for Boros decks to run 16 lands. Coming into play tapped and then tying up 5 mana is a lot to ask of an aggressive deck. Of course, you don't have to activate it but then you spent a turn possibly not curving so that you could play a man-land tapped that you're not activating which sucks.
Aggro deck can empty their hands pretty quickly. Do that, then activate your manland once you have nothing left to cast. Or activate it when don't want to cast any of the remaining cards in your hand. If you want to spend your mana differently, just don't activate it. It is still a dual land. The creature part is nearly free and should only be used when it is the best use for your mana.
Sure, the creature part is "free," but CITP is very much a real cost, especially in boros. That's the problem. Not that the creature is meh (i think it IS meh, but obviously a land being able to turn into a creature is only upside. A shockland that had "10, this land becomes a 1/1" would still be strictly better than a normal shockland), but that the tempo loss from a CITP is a real tempo hit in a 16-land aggro deck, especially when the upside takes 5 mana in a deck that doesn't reliably hit 5 by turn 6 or even 7.
The etbt drawback would be there no matter how good the creature part is. If you don't want to run an etbt land in your Boros aggro deck - don't. I don't like to run such lands in those decks either, but against decks with mass removal, this land is some nice insurance. Threatening 4 damage (or more, if you have played an Anthem earlier) after a Wrath is quite a bit. And even 16 land aggro deck hit their fifth mana eventually.
I prefer lands to enter untapped in my aggro decks, but increasing your threat density without losing colored mana sources is so much better. I will happily windmill slam this land into any deck that uses both of its colors of mana.
My biggest problem is that dual land slots are the tightest are in the the whole cube. I am just now trying 4 sets at 450 with my group and it already feels a little heavy. I know other people feel differently. But we all agree that fetch, abu duals, and shccks take the first 3 slots in each guild. With 1 slot left I really have to this land for the majority of my boros decks, as I really don't want another card to just support multicolor control/mind range/ goodstuff decks and I really don't support a big red deck. For my players there is almost always a boros aggro deck and there is often a Naya aggro deck, sometime there is a spells matter or a token deck in r/w. Of all these only the token deck really wants this card because it runs anthems and would like presence after wrath. In the naya deck it is decent because of the equipment or pumps run in those decks but that deck has access to plenty of manlands already.
It is definitely not a power level issue. I had my concerns with shambling vent on power elver reasons but it has been fine. I also play faerie conclave and gintu encampment. Both of those are 2/1 lands that hit more lightly than this but are so much cheaper to activate and go in so many more decks.
SO lots of complaining and naysaying by me on a card I will certainly try and may end up keeping but I am going to track the percentage of times this is better or worse than the competition and I don't think this is anywhere near as obvious as some people make out.
Of all these only the token deck really wants this card [...]
I disagree completely. If your deck wants RW mana and can produce RW mana, this card is great and I'd want it in my final 40. Over every existing Boros land that's not a dual land, shock land or fetch land. Sometimes ETBT is a drag, but even aggro decks can usually find a place in the curve to fit the land in, and increasing your threat density is just as good (if not better) for your deck than entering untapped would be. Especially since it can immediately pressure the opponent post-wrath. If you don't go overboard with ETBT fixing, a lone land entering tapped won't usually make or break your curve. Especially not in aggro when you have such a redundant suite of 1 and 2cc options. Having a free threat is usually such a huge upside that it easily negates the ETBT drawback. There are few justifications for entering the battlefield tapped, but manlands are just so powerful that they're easily worth it when they also fix your mana.
Of all these only the token deck really wants this card [...]
I disagree completely. If your deck wants RW mana and can produce RW mana, this card is great and I'd want it in my final 40. Over every existing Boros land that's not a dual land, shock land or fetch land. Sometimes ETBT is a drag, but even aggro decks can usually find a place in the curve to fit the land in, and increasing your threat density is just as good (if not better) for your deck than entering untapped would be. Especially since it can immediately pressure the opponent post-wrath. If you don't go overboard with ETBT fixing, a lone land entering tapped won't usually make or break your curve. Especially not in aggro when you have such a redundant suite of 1 and 2cc options. Having a free threat is usually such a huge upside that it easily negates the ETBT drawback. There are few justifications for entering the battlefield tapped, but manlands are just so powerful that they're easily worth it when they also fix your mana.
I hope so and maybe I am wrong. You are completely right that if people draft a fixing land they will play it and appreciate it when they are in the colors. I just think the the ETBT+4 mana activation+Most Aggro Guild(for my cube) make this much colors then it should be be given how sweet increased threat density is. I think this could have been a 2 mana activation 1/1 doublestrike, or a 3 mana 3/2 menace. But this is the card we have. In the end this might play out like slayer's stronghold adding some extra damage post wrath potential. And half a notch higher than the stronghold for fixing is enough to keep a spot in the cube.
Boros is an aggro guild but its not immune to flooding out or being controlled out of having threats. The utility is still sweet. This would actually be pretty bad as a 1/1 double strike for 2, it wouldn't be a clock on its own, it would only trade with a bear so it can rarely favorably attack, you would only ever activate it when you're out of gas and probably have another 2 mana to spare anyway. Getting in for 4 the turn after a wrath without spending a card is all I need to run a boros guildgate. Making the activation 3 instead of 4 would have helped push it but I don't think the difference is going to matter as often as you'd think.
On the hierarchy of dual lands so far, I think this rates fairly well towards the bottom. I like it less than either of the BFZ offerings, for example. Although this one (and Lavaclaw Reaches similarly) has a severe drawback in the typical decks produced by the pairing, it's still capable of producing a strong threat for low opportunity cost, and ending games rapidly on an empty board. So I think it's still an easy include since I have an essentially open slot after Ajani V, Boros Charm and Figure of Destiny.
As for wow factor, I'm going to be wowed when this dude picks up a Bonesplitter, an Elspeth +1, or crashes in with any one of the battle cry, exalted or anthem effects that abound in these colors. In the meantime, this manland is one of the most important tools for Boros decks, and it's been a long time coming. You're right though, coming into play tapped is absolutely a tempo loss that Boros aggro doesn't want to deal with. I think the dual benefits of increasing manafixing and threat density outweigh that risk. You can mitigate it by sequencing your land drops and running a lower curve to minimize the tempo loss of one less land.
Now the next target is the fastland, which I hope we can both agree is quite crucial
Maybe I don't put as much weight on the anthems/pumps because there's not a whole lot in my cube personally, especially ones that stick around after a board wipe. Being effectively 5 mana to use, I don't think I'll be equipping it too often either. Also, for the most part my Boros decks are chock full of threats compared to the other guilds (ie. the nature of blue decks not having a lot, or green decks having mana dorks) so I don't feel like I'm ever short on threats. More is nice for sure but not as much as other guilds, which have less threats to begin with.
Being a manland it's definitely still the 4th best dual and I agree with you, the risk is for sure worth the reward so I'll be running it. Just gotta be honest and say this doesn't make me salivate as I wanted something with a higher power level/higher in the tier list for a land that cip's tapped for this particular guild.
I agree with steve_man that this will be awesome for Naya. It may not be the best mandual, but it's a mandual and clearly the 4th best land in the color pair.
I detest how lazy the design is. Solid card for the decks that need it, a fixer and a 4 power beater for control decks and aggro decks alike, overall a pretty easy albeit simple include. My gripe is that it's just so bland. The original manduals cycle didn't function too much differently but they put the effort in to make them more unique than just "classic evergreen here" and "classic evergreen there". Regeneration, lifelink, double strike, hexproof compared to generic-cost firebreathing, reach, unblockable, flying+vigilance, and an attack trigger that grows the land larger and larger.
It just makes the U/R one utterly predictable -- 1UR to make a 2/2 that loots upon combat damage would make me giddy, but we'll probably just get UR for 2/2 flying, and cubers will just slam dunk that one too with little regard for the sadness that is this lost opportunity.
Let's not write off cards that haven't even been seen yet! Perhaps the Worldwake cards are being viewed through rose-tinted glasses. The only Worldwake manland that was more than an evergreen mechanic was Raging Ravine. Celestial Colonnade is literally Serra Angel. Stirring Wildwood is literally Heartwood Treefolk. Firebreathing on overcosted critters has been red since the game's inception. Creeping Tar Pit's ability has been around since Odyssey at least. If the argument is that cherrypicking evergreen mechanics is bad, does anyone really think the Worldwake manlands are a strong example to hold up as proof? They're arguably a lot safer in design than Lumbering Falls and Shambling Vent, both abilities which are very rarely seen on competitively costed cards.
I guess my point of contention lies with the phrase that the WWK lands "don't function too much differently" than the OGW lands, yet they are somehow more "unique". I'm not seeing it, but I'm open to being convinced
If all 10 of these lands had come out at once, there's no way people would be saying the ally ones are more interesting or unique, 4 of them are pretty generic, the GW one is practically a vanilla creature, and none of them do things as ballsy as putting hexproof on an attacking land. I think people just have a lot of nostalgia for old Zendikar.
The argument that most people are making isn't that the WWK Manlands are more unique, just merely that they're more pushed. Celestial Colonnade is Serra Angel for the same approximate cost of Serra Angel. Stirring Wildwood is Cloudcrown Oak for 1 colorless cheaper than the approximate cost of Cloudcrown Oak Creeping Tar Pit is a Covert Operative for two less than the approximate cost of Covert Operative (admittedly this isn't the most-pushed creature, but it's probably at least one discounted from a more pushed one) Lavaclaw Reaches is a Fiery Hellhound with an easier Firebreathing.
The only one without a direct comparison is Raging Ravine, which seems most similar to Rubblebelt Raiders at approximately the same cost.
The point is that the WWK ones seem like they're generally aggressively costed, while the BFZ/OGW ones so far all seem to be a bit under the curve.
However, it's like pizza. Even bad pizza is still pretty darn good. Manlands are easily the fourth best dual in each color pair, even when they're mediocre, so there's no reason someone at 450+ shouldn't be running these.
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I love the pizza analogy, I use it all the time because it's really, really hard to mess up pizza to the point that it's inedible.
I actually just started playing with the manlands this year. For the 3 years I've had my cube, I always dismissed them for coming into play tapped, but their opportunity cost is so low that even a subpar manland is still a good card.
I really hope the BG one has deathtouch instead of regeneration.....
I really hope the BG one has deathtouch instead of regeneration.....
Be careful what you wish for. If they do go the deathtouch route, they may make it a 1/4 or something. I'd much rather have a bigger activated body and regenerate than less power and deathtouch.
We already knew that this would CIPT, no surprise here. In hard aggro having 5 lands to activate it is a lot, when you want to be winning on turn 5-7, but this is a great backup when things are not going as planned and you're not winning that fast.
No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with 4 mana for 4 power, however, there are plenty of 4-5 power for 4 mana cards that aren't being played because most cubes have moved past them. Also, this is more like 5 mana for 4 power.
The power to cost ratio isn't really the problem, though. It's the continued tying up of resources that is the major concern. It's not uncommon for Boros decks to run 16 lands. Coming into play tapped and then tying up 5 mana is a lot to ask of an aggressive deck. Of course, you don't have to activate it but then you spent a turn possibly not curving so that you could play a man-land tapped that you're not activating which sucks.
But, without anthem effects or pump spells (I run few) think this land is in the bottom tier of man lands.
I do like how it has synergy with anthem effects/pump spells, in cubes with more of those, could see this being better than in mine.
That being said I'll still happily include.
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It is definitely not a power level issue. I had my concerns with shambling vent on power elver reasons but it has been fine. I also play faerie conclave and gintu encampment. Both of those are 2/1 lands that hit more lightly than this but are so much cheaper to activate and go in so many more decks.
SO lots of complaining and naysaying by me on a card I will certainly try and may end up keeping but I am going to track the percentage of times this is better or worse than the competition and I don't think this is anywhere near as obvious as some people make out.
I disagree completely. If your deck wants RW mana and can produce RW mana, this card is great and I'd want it in my final 40. Over every existing Boros land that's not a dual land, shock land or fetch land. Sometimes ETBT is a drag, but even aggro decks can usually find a place in the curve to fit the land in, and increasing your threat density is just as good (if not better) for your deck than entering untapped would be. Especially since it can immediately pressure the opponent post-wrath. If you don't go overboard with ETBT fixing, a lone land entering tapped won't usually make or break your curve. Especially not in aggro when you have such a redundant suite of 1 and 2cc options. Having a free threat is usually such a huge upside that it easily negates the ETBT drawback. There are few justifications for entering the battlefield tapped, but manlands are just so powerful that they're easily worth it when they also fix your mana.
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I hope so and maybe I am wrong. You are completely right that if people draft a fixing land they will play it and appreciate it when they are in the colors. I just think the the ETBT+4 mana activation+Most Aggro Guild(for my cube) make this much colors then it should be be given how sweet increased threat density is. I think this could have been a 2 mana activation 1/1 doublestrike, or a 3 mana 3/2 menace. But this is the card we have. In the end this might play out like slayer's stronghold adding some extra damage post wrath potential. And half a notch higher than the stronghold for fixing is enough to keep a spot in the cube.
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Being a manland it's definitely still the 4th best dual and I agree with you, the risk is for sure worth the reward so I'll be running it. Just gotta be honest and say this doesn't make me salivate as I wanted something with a higher power level/higher in the tier list for a land that cip's tapped for this particular guild.
Also, I now have a double striker that I can target with Mutagenic Growth!
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It just makes the U/R one utterly predictable -- 1UR to make a 2/2 that loots upon combat damage would make me giddy, but we'll probably just get UR for 2/2 flying, and cubers will just slam dunk that one too with little regard for the sadness that is this lost opportunity.
I guess my point of contention lies with the phrase that the WWK lands "don't function too much differently" than the OGW lands, yet they are somehow more "unique". I'm not seeing it, but I'm open to being convinced
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Celestial Colonnade is Serra Angel for the same approximate cost of Serra Angel.
Stirring Wildwood is Cloudcrown Oak for 1 colorless cheaper than the approximate cost of Cloudcrown Oak
Creeping Tar Pit is a Covert Operative for two less than the approximate cost of Covert Operative (admittedly this isn't the most-pushed creature, but it's probably at least one discounted from a more pushed one)
Lavaclaw Reaches is a Fiery Hellhound with an easier Firebreathing.
The only one without a direct comparison is Raging Ravine, which seems most similar to Rubblebelt Raiders at approximately the same cost.
Meanwhile, if we look at the BFZ ones:
Shambling Vent is a 2/3 lifelink for 3. There are a couple of other 2/3 Lifelinks for 3 with multiple other abilities (Liliana, Heretical Healer and Vampire Nighthawk come to mind).
Lumbering Falls is a 3/3 Hexproof for 4. Meanwhile, Thrun, the Last Troll is a 4/4 Hexproof Regenerate for 4. Witchstalker is a 3/3 Hexproof for 3 with extra abilities.
This card is a 2/1 Double Strike for 4. Three mana gets you a 2/2 Doublestrike with bonus abilities, but even recently we've had vanilla 2/2 Double Strikes at uncommon for 3 (Iroas's Champion)
The point is that the WWK ones seem like they're generally aggressively costed, while the BFZ/OGW ones so far all seem to be a bit under the curve.
However, it's like pizza. Even bad pizza is still pretty darn good. Manlands are easily the fourth best dual in each color pair, even when they're mediocre, so there's no reason someone at 450+ shouldn't be running these.
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I actually just started playing with the manlands this year. For the 3 years I've had my cube, I always dismissed them for coming into play tapped, but their opportunity cost is so low that even a subpar manland is still a good card.
I really hope the BG one has deathtouch instead of regeneration.....
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Be careful what you wish for. If they do go the deathtouch route, they may make it a 1/4 or something. I'd much rather have a bigger activated body and regenerate than less power and deathtouch.
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