Needle Spires is solid. The new manduals don't reach the power of Worldwake's top ones, but being around Lavaclaw Reaches' power still makes them good cards. And keep in mind that RW isn't solely Boros aggro. Jeskai control (which is popular in my cube at least) will love this land.
I think the kind of deck that would want this land would rather have an untapped fixer. Doesn't look like we're getting enemy tango lands, but I'd rather run a filter land, pain land, or fast land, and I don't think most people are currently running all of those.
This is awesome. People all over the internet are hating on the new manlands likely because some of the Worldwake ones were absurd. I mean let's use Stirring Wildwood for example - that was a middle-tier Worldwake manland, but do you know ABSURD that card would be in current Standard? In Cube all of these manlands are good, and they would have to print something truly atrocious like a 6-mana vanilla 3/3 for it to not be playable.
It's funny you mention wildwood, since he was the second worst WWK mandual. The two standard environments just have a different powerlevel, so the BFZ ones have suffered relative to the WWK ones (on average -- meaning that Reaches is weighted at .2). That's not the end of the world, and as manafixing manlands they're all still a slam dunk for cubes as the 4th best fixing cycle, but each time one comes out I'm a little disappointed. If the rumored GB one is true, it's heads and shoulders above the powerlevel for the other enemy ones, but still middle of the pack compared to WWK.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Yadda Yadda, I get that manlands are good. But I will repeat what I said in the big thread it's a "Dumpster Fire"
Yes it is a bit of hyperbole but I feel like of all the color combinations that would have liked a manland with an activation cost under 4 it is r/w. And having a land that get's first attack in on turn 5, and trades with a beast token or an omenspeaker is not what I wanted. I didn't need a crazy high power level, nor did I expect one but coming into play tapped is a real issue for aggro decks, and this also has no evasion and no protection.
For me this is the worst one so far and will likely be worse than the r/u one when it is revealed. Not on it's face but because 75% of the decks coming from my cube would much rather have the pain land.
And for reference I am currently running ghitu encampment. Yes it is an under powered manland but it's cheap activation makes it worth it. I recommend it for anyone who does like the red manland.
We just have to live with the new manduals being on the level of Stirring Wildwood and Lavaclaw Reaches and not of the other three. I think this one is fine, but I wish it would turn into a 2/2. Trading with the typical 1/3 defensive guys sucks.
Wargear's trigger doesn't care whether the permanent is a creature when it resolves, only that it was a creature immediately before Wargear became unattached. You'll still sacrifice the land.
Yeah, you still sac the land. They errata'd wargear so that it says "unattached from a PERMANENT" to make it more clear (note that the errata didn't functionally change anything).
This land is so sweet. Will be better than Lavaclaw Reaches the vast majority of the time on its own, and has awesome interactions with passive pump abilities and anthems. It can swing into X/2 blockers, can bash for 4 on an open board, and ...oh ya, is also a mana fixing land. Slam dunk for sections running 4 or more lands. This is a great one!
This is the Boros land I was waiting for. Gets silly with just one anthem out. A bit mana-intensive so it can't wear equipment well, but 4 virtual power with upside is plenty good.
Boros needed a hard hitting land that can close out games post-wrath, be able to attack into chump-blockers without dying and ideally have some sort of synergy with the themes in the color. This land does all of those things. It's exactly the Boros land I was hoping for.
I think this land is better than people think. This is swinging for 6 with Spear of Heliod on the board immediately post wrath. Lots of anthem effects in white too, so the double strike is pretty relevant.
How much more do you want??? It was always going to come into play tapped, so that's not much of an argument against it. Four power for four mana with a chance to go bigger is just under Raging Ravine in damage output. Toughness is the only downside here, and while it sucks to go up against tokens, burn or Fireslinger/Omenspeaker, you still get to trade with your opponent's X/4s, tear down Walls and dominate combat against bears and dorks, like Raging Ravine, and for free (i.e. not costing you a nonland card). It's more than fair - it's essential to keep Boros on an even playing field
I don't know how much more... I just know I wasn't wow'd. I wanted to be wow'd. Whatever creature it becomes, it's going into everyone's cube, I get it.
It was always going to come into play tapped, so that's not much of an argument against it.
Umm... What I meant was UR won't care as much as WR will. A cip tapped land is a huge drawback for aggressive decks which is a majority of my Boros decks. Sure we have ones that are midrange/control but it's not the majority. Since this is the case I wanted something with a higher power level.
If this would turn into a 2/2, it would be pretty much perfect. I find the 1 toughness a bit annoying, but otherwise, it is a fine land of an appropriate power level.
If this would turn into a 2/2, it would be pretty much perfect. I find the 1 toughness a bit annoying, but otherwise, it is a fine land of an appropriate power level.
I agree with this EXCEPT I think I would have been happy either with an extra point of power or -1 activation cost. Either would have made this excellent. As it is, it's passable, will go into pretty much every cube and will see play but I feel like it will often be grudgingly so.
I don't know how much more... I just know I wasn't wow'd. I wanted to be wow'd. Whatever creature it becomes, it's going into everyone's cube, I get it.
Umm... What I meant was UR won't care as much as WR will. A cip tapped land is a huge drawback for aggressive decks which is a majority of my Boros decks. Sure we have ones that are midrange/control but it's not the majority. Since this is the case I wanted something with a higher power level.
Looking at the raw stats, I understand it's hard to be wowed. It's been years since the Worldwake manlands, things have changed a lot since then. Cubes are a lot stronger, in general there's much less room for inclusion, and Wizards is probably playing it safe. But four power for four mana is the going rate for a dual manafixing manaland. Are you saying you want something better than Raging Ravine? Even with the general toning down of BFZ's power, what we have here is a land that comes pretty close to the greatness of Ravine, Colonnade and Creeping Tar pit.
As for wow factor, I'm going to be wowed when this dude picks up a Bonesplitter, an Elspeth +1, or crashes in with any one of the battle cry, exalted or anthem effects that abound in these colors. In the meantime, this manland is one of the most important tools for Boros decks, and it's been a long time coming. You're right though, coming into play tapped is absolutely a tempo loss that Boros aggro doesn't want to deal with. I think the dual benefits of increasing manafixing and threat density outweigh that risk. You can mitigate it by sequencing your land drops and running a lower curve to minimize the tempo loss of one less land.
Now the next target is the fastland, which I hope we can both agree is quite crucial
I think the main problem with this man land is that, in boros decks, it is only good very, very situationally and CITP is a huge deal for those decks. The number of games you win because you were able to activate this post-wrath and swing for lethal are going to be a lot lower, IMO, then the number of games you lose because you keep a 2 lander with this and can't curve out, or where you have to mull a 2-lander because you can't afford the tempo loss from playing a CITP land (basically every boros deck I have ever seen drafted in normal cubes is aggressive.) This, then, leaves this land as a sideboard land for boros aggro against the control decks (games you should probably already be winning, and I hate cards that mostly languish in the board in cube) or as a land for RWX decks, all of which can be a lot more midrangy or controly than straight boros decks. I'm probably perfectly happy playing this card there, but do I want to replace a non-CITP land that is better in actual boros with this land that's better in 3-color? I don't think so. Basically every boros deck I have ever drafted would rather have battlefield forge in most games than this land, and we aren't even cubing that. Man lands are great, but some color pairs just don't want them because the tend to be, by their nature, super durdly.
I like it pretty ok, it's pretty much a 4/1 that can grows with equipment. Doesn't break into 360, but fine for cube 450 and above.
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Yes it is a bit of hyperbole but I feel like of all the color combinations that would have liked a manland with an activation cost under 4 it is r/w. And having a land that get's first attack in on turn 5, and trades with a beast token or an omenspeaker is not what I wanted. I didn't need a crazy high power level, nor did I expect one but coming into play tapped is a real issue for aggro decks, and this also has no evasion and no protection.
For me this is the worst one so far and will likely be worse than the r/u one when it is revealed. Not on it's face but because 75% of the decks coming from my cube would much rather have the pain land.
And for reference I am currently running ghitu encampment. Yes it is an under powered manland but it's cheap activation makes it worth it. I recommend it for anyone who does like the red manland.
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How much more do you want??? It was always going to come into play tapped, so that's not much of an argument against it. Four power for four mana with a chance to go bigger is just under Raging Ravine in damage output. Toughness is the only downside here, and while it sucks to go up against tokens, burn or Fireslinger/Omenspeaker, you still get to trade with your opponent's X/4s, tear down Walls and dominate combat against bears and dorks, like Raging Ravine, and for free (i.e. not costing you a nonland card). It's more than fair - it's essential to keep Boros on an even playing field
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Umm... What I meant was UR won't care as much as WR will. A cip tapped land is a huge drawback for aggressive decks which is a majority of my Boros decks. Sure we have ones that are midrange/control but it's not the majority. Since this is the case I wanted something with a higher power level.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I agree with this EXCEPT I think I would have been happy either with an extra point of power or -1 activation cost. Either would have made this excellent. As it is, it's passable, will go into pretty much every cube and will see play but I feel like it will often be grudgingly so.
Looking at the raw stats, I understand it's hard to be wowed. It's been years since the Worldwake manlands, things have changed a lot since then. Cubes are a lot stronger, in general there's much less room for inclusion, and Wizards is probably playing it safe. But four power for four mana is the going rate for a dual manafixing manaland. Are you saying you want something better than Raging Ravine? Even with the general toning down of BFZ's power, what we have here is a land that comes pretty close to the greatness of Ravine, Colonnade and Creeping Tar pit.
As for wow factor, I'm going to be wowed when this dude picks up a Bonesplitter, an Elspeth +1, or crashes in with any one of the battle cry, exalted or anthem effects that abound in these colors. In the meantime, this manland is one of the most important tools for Boros decks, and it's been a long time coming. You're right though, coming into play tapped is absolutely a tempo loss that Boros aggro doesn't want to deal with. I think the dual benefits of increasing manafixing and threat density outweigh that risk. You can mitigate it by sequencing your land drops and running a lower curve to minimize the tempo loss of one less land.
Now the next target is the fastland, which I hope we can both agree is quite crucial
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