MTG Salvation

I can see the point of the new ones being a bit lazy. Stats + evergreen creature keyword is a pretty generic way to do a cycle. The WWK ones weren't like that. Only one of them was simply stats + evergreen keyword, while the others mixed it up with two evergreen keywords, one non-keyword mechanic, a triggerd ability and an activated ability. This has nothing to do with rose-tinted glasses: Even if all ten came out together, I would have noticed that the allied ones were more diverse and interesting than the enemy ones.

We haven't seen the final two though. Maybe those two don't follow the generic scheme and do something more interesting. If the BG one has indeed regeneration, that would be a bit better than simply having deathtouch, since it would give us a second one with an activated ability. I hope the UR one has evasion plus saboteur looting. Or maybe "whenever this attacks, tap target creature".

Edit: Bringing up Iroas's Champion makes me especially bitter that the RW one isn't a 2/2.

I suppose you could make an argument for less interesting, but as far as quality goes, the worst two of the 8 we have were from the original cycle, so 5 "middle of the pack" manlands is totally fine with me. I actually prefer it to having a huge disparity in powerlevel like the first cycle had, with Tar Pit and Colonnade being leagues better than the other ones.

I hope that the BG one has a big body, and that the UR one has evasion. I'm afraid of getting a low-power Golgari deathtoucher and a loot-on-connect Izzet one with no evasion. They'd be playable, but far worse than the other 8 if that's what they wind up doing.

Quote from Star Slayer »

Bringing up Iroas's Champion makes me especially bitter that the RW one isn't a 2/2.

Amen.

But I have always wanted a manland that trades with Sea Gate Oracle...

Serious question, does anyone have more than one example of things this trades unfavorably with in cube?

Off the top of my head, it might be something like 20 to 1 in numbers of favorable interactions to unfavorable. I already mentioned Fireslinger and Omenspeaker. Those are pretty much worst-case scenario for me. Umezawa's Jitte is a wash since it works just as well with you as against you.

Other popular X/3s and X/4s at three mana or less include Shambling Vent, Stirring Wildwood, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, Treetop Village, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Kor Skyfisher, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Blade Splicer, Spectral Procession, Sea Gate Oracle, True-Name Nemesis, Trygon Predator, Feldon of the Third Path, Courser of Kruphix, Liliana, Heretical Healer and Drana, Liberator of Malakir. There aren't enough Centaur Coursers in cube to tangle with this (Magus of the Wheel mostly).

Your mileage may vary, but for my investment I would be happy to trade my land with pretty much all of the above except Brimaz and the Kird creatures, and maybe Blade Splicer's token or Kor Skyfisher (and True-Name Nemesis lol).

Finally, consider whether 1 toughness actually makes a difference over 2 toughness in the above cases. Aside from the WCS, I don't think it makes a difference. In terms of removal, Twin Bolt, Electrolyze and Fire // Ice get slightly better. Damage-based sweepers like Earthquake get a bit better as well, if situational. You might get hit with a Tragic Slip, but again, anything that would take out X/1s will likely take out your X/2 as well, no?

I know getting hit with the corner case sucks, but let's keep things in perspective. Twenty cards (if you even run all of them) in a 360 cube is less than 6% of the entire thing. Have you considered the amount of creatures it does kill safely, as well as the equipment, anthems, burn, and pump available?

Well all those 2/3s would've traded with it even if it was a 2/2. So it only matters against an incredibly small number of cards.

Ok, that actually puts things into perspective. I run only 7 creatures that trade with the printed Needle Spires, but would just die to a 2/2 Needle Spires: Renowned Weaponsmith, Grand Architect, Sea Gate Oracle, Tradewind Rider, Thopter Engineer, Ohran Viper and Sygg, River Cutthroat. Even with a few instant speed 1 damage burn effects, that makes like 10 cards out of 600 where the 2nd point of toughness would matter. It would obviously be nicer if the land had that 2nd point of toughness, but it actually doesn't change its power level in cube by much.

And I don't run a single one of those creatures, so I have even less to worry about.

Quote from Wildfire393 »

The argument that most people are making isn't that the WWK Manlands are more unique, just merely that they're more pushed.
Celestial Colonnade is Serra Angel for the same approximate cost of Serra Angel.
Stirring Wildwood is Cloudcrown Oak for 1 colorless cheaper than the approximate cost of Cloudcrown Oak
Creeping Tar Pit is a Covert Operative for two less than the approximate cost of Covert Operative (admittedly this isn't the most-pushed creature, but it's probably at least one discounted from a more pushed one)
Lavaclaw Reaches is a Fiery Hellhound with an easier Firebreathing.
The only one without a direct comparison is Raging Ravine, which seems most similar to Rubblebelt Raiders at approximately the same cost.

Meanwhile, if we look at the BFZ ones:
Shambling Vent is a 2/3 lifelink for 3. There are a couple of other 2/3 Lifelinks for 3 with multiple other abilities (Liliana, Heretical Healer and Vampire Nighthawk come to mind).
Lumbering Falls is a 3/3 Hexproof for 4. Meanwhile, Thrun, the Last Troll is a 4/4 Hexproof Regenerate for 4. Witchstalker is a 3/3 Hexproof for 3 with extra abilities.
This card is a 2/1 Double Strike for 4. Three mana gets you a 2/2 Doublestrike with bonus abilities, but even recently we've had vanilla 2/2 Double Strikes at uncommon for 3 (Iroas's Champion)

The point is that the WWK ones seem like they're generally aggressively costed, while the BFZ/OGW ones so far all seem to be a bit under the curve.

However, it's like pizza. Even bad pizza is still pretty darn good. Manlands are easily the fourth best dual in each color pair, even when they're mediocre, so there's no reason someone at 450+ shouldn't be running these.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that the powerlevels of the old manlands are higher than the new ones based on your comparisons. Since all the old ones are being compared to useless cards, while the new ones are being compared to standard/modern/cube cards.

The argument could easily be turned around if you compared Lumbering Falls to Primal Huntbeast and Creeping Tar Pit to True-Name Nemesis

I do agree that the powerlevel has fallen a bit on the new ones, and needle spire seems weak when compared to Iroas's Champion. It could have been 1RW to activate, but it would have been very strong if that were the case.

Quote from steve_man »

I think 1RW activation could have been reasonable as a 3/1 first striker.

I would have preferred that for sure.

Not me. The double-strike opens up so many opportunities for awesome card interactions and a huge ceiling. Love the design just as it is.

I'm also really happy with the double strike over first strike choice. So much more you can do with that when designing your deck. And I sort of like the 1 toughness as it brings a risk/reward feel to the card. Potentially huge damage but you make your land very vulnerable.

An activation cost of 3 probably would have made it too good, but that's the only thing I'm not super happy with simply because this color combination does't always get to 5 mana.

Yeah, double strike makes it awesome with Anthems. And Mutagenic Growth.

Quote from Star Slayer »

I can see the point of the new ones being a bit lazy. Stats + evergreen creature keyword is a pretty generic way to do a cycle. The WWK ones weren't like that. Only one of them was simply stats + evergreen keyword, while the others mixed it up with two evergreen keywords, one non-keyword mechanic, a triggerd ability and an activated ability. This has nothing to do with rose-tinted glasses: Even if all ten came out together, I would have noticed that the allied ones were more diverse and interesting than the enemy ones.

We haven't seen the final two though. Maybe those two don't follow the generic scheme and do something more interesting. If the BG one has indeed regeneration, that would be a bit better than simply having deathtouch, since it would give us a second one with an activated ability. I hope the UR one has evasion plus saboteur looting. Or maybe "whenever this attacks, tap target creature".

Edit: Bringing up Iroas's Champion makes me especially bitter that the RW one isn't a 2/2.

I don't think the simplicity of the BFZ man lands was a result of laziness but a conscious design decision.

Unfortunately, the simple design is probably a trend you can count on just based on set context. Original flavor Zendikar was a less crowded block and with a much heavier focus on the "lands matters" theme. It makes sense that the manlands of that set would be a bit flashier. With the BFZ the focus is split much more with lands/allies/eldrazi so it follows that the manlands would use a more simple design because they aren't the marque anymore. Doesn't help that a lot of the sets complexity went into mechanics that don't matter for cube (devoid/ingest/processors) so there wasn't as much left over for the manlands a cube builder might want.

The sad tragedy of cards having to come out in a broader context then just themselves.

Quote from PyreDream »

Let's not write off cards that haven't even been seen yet! Perhaps the Worldwake cards are being viewed through rose-tinted glasses. The only Worldwake manland that was more than an evergreen mechanic was Raging Ravine. Celestial Colonnade is literally Serra Angel. Stirring Wildwood is literally Heartwood Treefolk. Firebreathing on overcosted critters has been red since the game's inception. Creeping Tar Pit's ability has been around since Odyssey at least. If the argument is that cherrypicking evergreen mechanics is bad, does anyone really think the Worldwake manlands are a strong example to hold up as proof? They're arguably a lot safer in design than Lumbering Falls and Shambling Vent, both abilities which are very rarely seen on competitively costed cards.

I guess my point of contention lies with the phrase that the WWK lands "don't function too much differently" than the OGW lands, yet they are somehow more "unique". I'm not seeing it, but I'm open to being convinced

If you were to predict what abilities each color pairing would have on their manland, you would have a hard time coming up with even 1 out of the 5 of the original ones (Reach was keyworded what, 3 years before it appeared on Stirring Wildwood?). "Lifelink", "Double strike" and "Hexproof" (been a keyword for almost 5 years now) would be incredibly easy to guess. You'd probably never in a million years guess Colonnade having two evergreens, Lavaclaw's firebreathing being colorless in requirement, or Raging Ravine's attack trigger. That's my point -- the function isn't affected too much when it comes to the cards actually being played, but the lazy design process itself is what bothers me. The new ones don't appear creative in the slightest.

First off, the new cycle isn't done yet. There's definitely a chance that if they're going to have more complicated keywords and abilities that it would make the most sense on the remaining two anyways.

Secondly, not all of the original manlands were shining examples of creative design. Reach and Unblockable are just as boring and predictable as Hexproof, Double Strike and Lifelink are.

Lastly, it's about function, not just form. Despite the fact that Tar Pit has a boring and predictable ability, it's still far and away the best manland. And when it was printed, people weren't complaining about a flavor fail for that card because it didn't have a weird attack trigger or an activated ability. All three of the new manlands are better than the worst two manlands from the original cycle, and even if their design is "boring", all the abilities are perfectly fitting. They make sense in the context of the guild, and that makes the design simple and elegant ...arguably even more important than being overly creative.

I love the new cycle. I think they're in the middle of the pack (right where they should be) in terms of powerlevel, the designs are simple and elegant, and they're all good.

I don't think there is anyting unexpected about power level. Lumbering Falls is the 3rd most powerful from my group's experience. Hexproof that dodges sweepers has been savage. I am admit that shambling vent was meh for me but it is fine, more exciting than stirring wildwood for my group. My contention with needles spires is all about costing 5(I always include the land itself) to attack in boros is rough, but doublestrike is almost as powerful a mechanic as you can get.

With regards to the few number of creatures/spells that can take out vs a 2/2 I would add to the list. Any team block with a 1/1 like 3 lingering souls, any 1/1 first strike guy, half a contagion and a few others. But lots of times my 2/1 double striker will be very nice in combat and trade with something big, chumped, or be blocked by two things. But a favorable combat exchange is usually the last thing I want for my 5 mana (Guessing urns 6-8) from my aggro deck.

I admit this functions much like a 2/2 or 2/3 double stricker but the few scenerios where it is bad make a narrower advantage even slimmer.(IMHO) This could easily have been 3 mana to activate with the limitation of 1 toughness.

Playtesting so far I have asked the question when this has been drawn for the decks it is played in what would have been the best dual land for the game:

In Hard Boros Aggro
Battlefield Forge - 50%
Needle Spires -30%
Slayer's Stronghold - 20%

In Other Decks
Needle Spires - 60%
Battlefield Forge - 20%
Slayer's Stronghold - 20%

I am surprised so many people never get to 5 land in their Boros aggro decks. In my experience if you don't get to 5 land you are either winning the game because you have so many efficient threats or you are mana-screwed. A manland like this one is great at helping you mitigate flood which is usually how you lose with these aggro decks.

Quote from steve_man »

My aggressive Boros decks tend to run 15-16 lands and play cards like Strip Mine / Wasteland / Tangle Wire / Winter Orb / Armageddon / Fireblast, so 5 mana can be a stretch.

I have to agree here, there are plenty of times I get to 5 land. I don't always win by turn 5 but that armageeddon is awesome as hell on turn 4 or I am using the strip mine early. And I do have a couple of curve toppers in my aggro decks so ideally I am dropping zealous conscripts of thundermaw hellkite for the win. Already in testing the come in to play tapped has been a little hazard as you definitely aren't playing it on 1, 90% of the time not on two, maybe on 3, and again iffy on 4. So while it would be nice to rock in with this on turn 5 after you empty your hand that hasn't been the big percentage of games. And if you are pushing this as "Great when you flood," guess what is also great, playing one more threat and one less land. I know it is not exactly the same thing but my aggro decks are best when they are fast as hell. When I give combo, midrange, or control an extra turn or turn I might as well start shuffling.


But this is really only one deck issue and some cubes aren't bending aggro as hard as I want to. I just don't think this will win in the late game or from a flood like a untapped land with haste or an evasion land of any sort.

And to the previous posters I hope we get one of the most boring keywords of all for izzet 'Flying'. They could get extra saucy and add prowess. I doubt we would get loot or draw a card unless it was a crappy 1/3 without flying so we can skip that.

I hope it won't have prowess + flying, not because those are bad mechanics but because that + flying will probably mean a pretty *****ty creature like a 1/1 or an overcosted 2/2.

Is prowess even represented in this block?

EDIT: Doih, it's evergreen now.

2/1 flying with loot on connect for 1RU? Hey, I can dream can't I?