I really doubt it could become as good as you said. It's a good cantrip, absolutly, but a premium one?
Yes, a premium one. Look at the math.
As a good mathematician myself, I do perfectly understand your maths and think they are right and that they apply well to evaluate the hit % of OoN. But there's one variable that is not taking into consideration in the calculation. That's the versatile form of the selection. You just can't thrown maths, however good theyvare, and say that green don't care about it. For our playgroup, that like the combo stuff, all the blue cantrips except maybe for Serum Visions are way above it. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
I'm no saying it shouldn't be add to the cube, just that fot us it's part of another league.
Yes this clearly doesn't go in the decks where it can't hit the x-percentage-of-valid-cards that make it good, the same way I wouldn't put equipment into a deck w/o creatures. But when it does fall into those decks--which I think a majority of the green decks in a majority of cubes can accommodate for--then it's an excellent cantrip that is often digging for what you could need/want out of that deck. Can you throw it into any deck with enough green mana like you can with the blue cantrips into decks with blue mana? No, but in the right list it acts as good if not than some of it not all of the blue cantrips some percentage of the time. Like I might not throw it into a UG deck with some number of counters or a GB reanimated strategy with lots of enchantments, but to me that seems like a minority of the decks where you could slot Oath into.
Also: I'm putting bet on green being the best Oath in the next cycle of Oaths, whenever that is.
Again, this is a green card. I'm not telling you to remove Ponder for it.
There are three situations that can arise when you cast Oath:
1. You need to hit a land. If you whiff in the top 3 looking for it, you would've lost without Oath.
2. You need to hit a threat/body. If you whiff in the top 3 looking for it, you would've lost without Oath.
3. You need to hit a card Oath can't draw. In which case, no other green card could've been played to find it anyways.
When it does hit 3 targets, it's an ultra-premium cantrip. It picks any one of three and bottoms the other two itself, which is better than any other 1cc cantrip outside of pairing a Brainstorm or Ponder with a shuffle effect.
When it hits two of 3 targets, the selection value is mathematically similar to a card like Sleight of Hand, except it's better because if you're in scenario 1 or 2 above, you get to look at the 3rd card looking for a land or threat, which Sleight can't do.
The other scenarios of Oath simply cycling are less than 10% of the time, and complete whiffs are once in a blue moon scenarios.
And that's ignoring entirely it's ability to randomly fix mana for 'walkers or being abused by flicker/bounce effects or manipulating your library after other top-of-library effects...
There is only really one green deck that won't reliably hit enough targets for Oath to make your final 40, and that's in Oath of Druids decks. And a TON of green cards are bad in those decks anyways, so it's not that big of a strike against Oath of Nissa anyways, because it's kind of an outlier.
You shouldn't be playing OoN with the expectations of it functioning identically to Ponder. You should be playing OoN with the expectations of it performing the functions that it's designed to perform. And in that capacity, it's a premium cantrip effect in a color that has no precedent for a 1cc card with its respective level of card selection.
Oath is also probably bad in any storm/combo deck playing green for regrowth effects. Those decks are definitely the minority of green decks across all cubes, and those decks usually don't feature green as the prominent color or even close to 50% of the color requirements kind of like how Oath of Druids decks usually end up in my experience, but if you're expecting Oath to perform there it will probably not. But those decks do exist, just not at a high enough percentage to count as a strike against Oath.
And again, like 95% or more of the green cards in the cube are bad in Storm decks as it is, so I don't think it's a strike against OoN for it not to perform there.
And again, like 95% or more of the green cards in the cube are bad in Storm decks as it is, so I don't think it's a strike against OoN for it not to perform there.
Agree. I'm just saying that this card is no Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain like in terms of quality for all the cube decks that our players can draft. However, it's no doubt cubable. I' not saying the opposite, it's a good magic card.
In the decks that it does go into, it is often just as good if not better than the blue cantrips. If the math works out for the deck you're playing, it's often the best cantrip available period.
Had it in a G/B deck last night and it was great as allways. I cast it in 3 games and never felt bad about the fact I couldn't grab spells or enchantments, the planeswalkers fixing never came up but it made me feel a bit better about splashing white for Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
It's never a high pick but it makes it into the main more often than not. Whilst it's not quite as powerful as some of the blue options the fact it's in a colour that doesn't get these effects often far overshadows it being a bit more narrow
You don’t see this card in many lists anymore, but with the upcoming printing of Minsc & Boo to supplement Oko and Grist we will have 3 multicolored green planeswalker bombs worth splashing for in most green decks. Oath of Nissa can dig for these bombs and help splash them. I’m wondering if anyone else has thought about this card with the 3 Gx walkers.
You don’t see this card in many lists anymore, but with the upcoming printing of Minsc & Boo to supplement Oko and Grist we will have 3 multicolored green planeswalker bombs worth splashing for in most green decks. Oath of Nissa can dig for these bombs and help splash them. I’m wondering if anyone else has thought about this card with the 3 Gx walkers.
I've been running Oath of Nissa alongside Abundant Harvest and Once Upon a Time and still like it a good amount since card selection is always a good thing to have. If I had to rank them, I'd say Abundant Harvest > Once Upon a Time => Oath of Nissa. I think OuaT and OoN are pretty equal in terms of cost and effect, but I think OuaT wins out in the tiebreaker since it fuels the graveyard. Oath of Nissa will always be a highly playable card as long as you have creature heavy decks, it's just a matter of having space for it.
I've been running Oath of Nissa alongside Abundant Harvest and Once Upon a Time and still like it a good amount since card selection is always a good thing to have. If I had to rank them, I'd say Abundant Harvest > Once Upon a Time => Oath of Nissa. I think OuaT and OoN are pretty equal in terms of cost and effect, but I think OuaT wins out in the tiebreaker since it fuels the graveyard. Oath of Nissa will always be a highly playable card as long as you have creature heavy decks, it's just a matter of having space for it.
I agree generally, but I would put Once Upon a Time on top. I really love that card. I do feel Oath is the weakest of three unless you're getting value out of the second ability, but I still don't ever plan on cutting it. I want more green Ponders, not fewer.
As to Patrunkenphat7's point, I think this is generally a safe card to play, but I wouldn't look for it to improve the consistency of planeswalkers ALL that much. However it is particularly geared towards cheap multicolored planeswalker bombs like Wrenn and Six and Oko, Thief of Crowns.
One thing I didn't really notice about the second ability for a long time (though someone else has probably mentioned it already) is that it's less relevant than it would be on another card simply because Oath of Nissa already fixes your mana. You're a lot less likely to be color-screwed on that planeswalker to begin with if you played this early.
You don’t see this card in many lists anymore, but with the upcoming printing of Minsc & Boo to supplement Oko and Grist we will have 3 multicolored green planeswalker bombs worth splashing for in most green decks. Oath of Nissa can dig for these bombs and help splash them. I’m wondering if anyone else has thought about this card with the 3 Gx walkers.
I've been running Oath of Nissa alongside Abundant Harvest and Once Upon a Time and still like it a good amount since card selection is always a good thing to have. If I had to rank them, I'd say Abundant Harvest > Once Upon a Time => Oath of Nissa. I think OuaT and OoN are pretty equal in terms of cost and effect, but I think OuaT wins out in the tiebreaker since it fuels the graveyard. Oath of Nissa will always be a highly playable card as long as you have creature heavy decks, it's just a matter of having space for it.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Oath is back in my list now that there are so many first-pickable Gx walkers. Digging for and splashing these bombs is exactly what I want a 1-mama card in my deck to do.
As a good mathematician myself, I do perfectly understand your maths and think they are right and that they apply well to evaluate the hit % of OoN. But there's one variable that is not taking into consideration in the calculation. That's the versatile form of the selection. You just can't thrown maths, however good theyvare, and say that green don't care about it. For our playgroup, that like the combo stuff, all the blue cantrips except maybe for Serum Visions are way above it. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
I'm no saying it shouldn't be add to the cube, just that fot us it's part of another league.
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Also: I'm putting bet on green being the best Oath in the next cycle of Oaths, whenever that is.
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There are three situations that can arise when you cast Oath:
1. You need to hit a land. If you whiff in the top 3 looking for it, you would've lost without Oath.
2. You need to hit a threat/body. If you whiff in the top 3 looking for it, you would've lost without Oath.
3. You need to hit a card Oath can't draw. In which case, no other green card could've been played to find it anyways.
When it does hit 3 targets, it's an ultra-premium cantrip. It picks any one of three and bottoms the other two itself, which is better than any other 1cc cantrip outside of pairing a Brainstorm or Ponder with a shuffle effect.
When it hits two of 3 targets, the selection value is mathematically similar to a card like Sleight of Hand, except it's better because if you're in scenario 1 or 2 above, you get to look at the 3rd card looking for a land or threat, which Sleight can't do.
The other scenarios of Oath simply cycling are less than 10% of the time, and complete whiffs are once in a blue moon scenarios.
And that's ignoring entirely it's ability to randomly fix mana for 'walkers or being abused by flicker/bounce effects or manipulating your library after other top-of-library effects...
There is only really one green deck that won't reliably hit enough targets for Oath to make your final 40, and that's in Oath of Druids decks. And a TON of green cards are bad in those decks anyways, so it's not that big of a strike against Oath of Nissa anyways, because it's kind of an outlier.
You shouldn't be playing OoN with the expectations of it functioning identically to Ponder. You should be playing OoN with the expectations of it performing the functions that it's designed to perform. And in that capacity, it's a premium cantrip effect in a color that has no precedent for a 1cc card with its respective level of card selection.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Agree. I'm just saying that this card is no Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain like in terms of quality for all the cube decks that our players can draft. However, it's no doubt cubable. I' not saying the opposite, it's a good magic card.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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It's never a high pick but it makes it into the main more often than not. Whilst it's not quite as powerful as some of the blue options the fact it's in a colour that doesn't get these effects often far overshadows it being a bit more narrow
I've been running Oath of Nissa alongside Abundant Harvest and Once Upon a Time and still like it a good amount since card selection is always a good thing to have. If I had to rank them, I'd say Abundant Harvest > Once Upon a Time => Oath of Nissa. I think OuaT and OoN are pretty equal in terms of cost and effect, but I think OuaT wins out in the tiebreaker since it fuels the graveyard. Oath of Nissa will always be a highly playable card as long as you have creature heavy decks, it's just a matter of having space for it.
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I agree generally, but I would put Once Upon a Time on top. I really love that card. I do feel Oath is the weakest of three unless you're getting value out of the second ability, but I still don't ever plan on cutting it. I want more green Ponders, not fewer.
As to Patrunkenphat7's point, I think this is generally a safe card to play, but I wouldn't look for it to improve the consistency of planeswalkers ALL that much. However it is particularly geared towards cheap multicolored planeswalker bombs like Wrenn and Six and Oko, Thief of Crowns.
One thing I didn't really notice about the second ability for a long time (though someone else has probably mentioned it already) is that it's less relevant than it would be on another card simply because Oath of Nissa already fixes your mana. You're a lot less likely to be color-screwed on that planeswalker to begin with if you played this early.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I would add Ancient Stirrings into that list as well. I found getting to dig 5 cards deep into your library for cards like Gaea's Cradle, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Emrakul, the Promised End, Urza's Saga has been invaluable.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i