Nissa, Voice of Zendikar- After a lot of playtesting, I can safely say I really like her and she'll be sticking around for me at 540. She slots in with a lot of green's good value 3-drops, and gains a lot of value for being one of the only cards in that slot that supports aggro (double green is an issue for some of those decks though). The big thing that put her over the top for me was realizing just how often she gets to ultimate, and just how powerful that ultimate is; she honestly plays like a more versatile and interactive Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. She's not perfect; her weakness to evasion can bite back at times, and her cost precludes her from some of her natural homes. She's still good enough value for me, and I definitely recommend trying her out in any list above 360.
Exactly that. She's also been awesome for our plaugroup. Really like her so far.
I hope I get some more support for the cube in the near future that will boost her value in heavy green decks. She wasn't good in our traditional green shells, though her value in token strategies is pretty high. With a couple more good token support cards for green, she may gain enough value to break into the competition in my green section. We play token decks that utilize green token support cards, but those decks don't support 1GG costed cards that really need to come down ASAP to provide enough value. Maybe she's good enough in those types of decks to inspire a non-traditional green-based token build ...but our (albeit limited) testing didn't suggest that. I hope I'm wrong, because it's a cool card; but I'm waiting for a little more in-color support before pushing in on that strategy. Similar to how Titania was great in the right deck, but lacked the in-color depth to make her a great inclusion. She's in my on-deck binder until G/X aggro loam is a deep enough strategy to justify her. Nissa's in the same boat; waiting for the support needed for GG/x tokens to be a legitimate build. The problem with heavy-green tokens.dec is that it has the same problematic matchups that regular green midrange decks have, without the powerlevel to justify it. It's good against aggro and bad against control ...just like every other green midrange deck... so I don't have a desire to push forward on that strategy at this time.
Yup. Flip-Nissa is a great green midrange card against control decks. One of the best, actually. Which is why that card is so valuable in the green section.
The more I pay attention to how some green decks play out, the more I like nissa ally of zendikar.
I cut her after a couple (favourable) tests, but think I'm gonna bring her back in for another one. Supporting a little more token decks in current iteration and a couple experiments in green failed.
Her and reflector Mage were my biggest underestimations of the set.
Ps, very glad to hear all these opinions. Think it's good habit for the community for 3 stages of analysis.
Pre-thoughts, initial impressions and 1-3 month impressions. Thanks for all the feedback!
Still torn about Reflector Mage. I only run 3 cards from each guild. I get that Detention Sphere is redundant, but it's so good, esp. against tokens, a deck that seems to get stronger every set. Not sure what to do.
Still torn about Reflector Mage. I only run 3 cards from each guild. I get that Detention Sphere is redundant, but it's so good, esp. against tokens, a deck that seems to get stronger every set. Not sure what to do.
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I think I would cut supreme verdict before I would cut detention sphere...
If you are really strict with ensuring only 3 cards per guild and you want to insure white has enough sweepers... I think the gap in power between terminus and the 4cc sweepers are pretty small. If I were managing your cube, I would find a way to get terminus in and cut verdict for reflector mage.
2 wraths + terminus + catastrophe is more than enough wrath redundancy for white imo.
Both verdict/sphere are more powerful than reflector mage, but less interesting. AND they are cards you don't want too many of in decks. I find myself cutting 2nd/3rd wraths in decks much more often than I'm cutting 2nd or 3rd Oring effects.
If I were managing a 360 cube, my Azorius section would probably be Geist / Supreme Verdict / Reflector Mage. I'd much rather cube Grasp of Fate over Terminus, giving me 5 O-ring effects in white already (O-ring / Banishing Light / Council's Judgment / Grasp of Fate / Vindicate) which I believe is already more than enough at 360. There's far more O-ring effects than there are 4 cmc pure Wrath effects.
I think Detention Sphere is a fine cut for you to give Reflector Mage a test run for a little while. If he under performs, you can always bring D Sphere back and if you miss the O-Ring, you can always find a way to get Grasp of Fate into your white section (or also just bring D Sphere back if you prefer).
I prefer Verdict to Sphere, hands-down. Oblivion Rings are great effects, but there are quite a few options at that slot. 4-mana wraths are at an absolute premium, and woe unto the control deck that fails to pick one up.
I prefer Verdict to Sphere, hands-down. Oblivion Rings are great effects, but there are quite a few options at that slot. 4-mana wraths are at an absolute premium, and woe unto the control deck that fails to pick one up.
It's true that the first wrath is much more important than the first o-ring, but find it's pretty rare that if you cube 4 wraths in white, one or two won't find its way to a UW control player. Wraths are more narrow than o-ring effects, so they are fought over less. 2 wraths per deck is generally a sweet spot, and 3 is almost always overkill... But yeah, a pure control deck without a wrath is almost always a train wreck, so ensuring that happens is something.
Thinking about it more I take back what I said. I had also forgotten about grasp of fate.
I'd comfortably rank Reflector Mage the second best non-land card in Azorius. That third toughness is clutch and not being able to replay the creature has been of consequence multiple times already. Card is real nice -- one of the best in the set for us cubers. Happy to run over both Sphere and Verdict.
Still torn about Reflector Mage. I only run 3 cards from each guild. I get that Detention Sphere is redundant, but it's so good, esp. against tokens, a deck that seems to get stronger every set. Not sure what to do.
Got a good chunk of playtime these last couple weeks thanks to a long weekend, a brutal cold spell and people actually being free. Impressions of the OGW adds so far:
1. Manlands - These have all been great. I was down on them when they were spoiled but to be honest it was because I was hoping for a land in the same tier as Colonnade/Tar Pit. None of them are quite as good but that's not to say they're bad. I've yet to see one in a sideboard, including Needle Spires, which has surprisingly been fine even in dedicated aggro. Notably, I ran Needle Spires in a mostly red burn deck with a splash of white where it acted as a great mana sink after I've played out most of my hand. Double strike has proven to be a very good ability allowing it to attack into most dudes and also allowing it to deal significant damage to the face. Works great in the colours that have access to burn and wraths (and I was quite down on this manland in particular due to it coming in tapped in an aggro heavy guild).
2. Reflector Mage - I'd rank this the second best non-land card in Azorius. Card is real nice. Comfortably blocks a large portion of the field, survives a bit of burn, and gives opponents less choice.
3. Oath of Nissa - Green card selection working as advertised.
4. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - It's possible that I like Baby Nissa more than I should because I want to like her. To be honest I can't even put my finger on why I like her exactly. Maybe it has something to do with her being a 3-drop in the colour that can reliably cast her on turn 2. Maybe it's because the 0/1's have been so handy at clogging up the board creating space and buying time for ramp. They also synergize well with a lot of cube mainstays that pretty much everyone runs already. It could also be the fact that she's able to turn elves, sages and witnesses into actual threats when required. Or perhaps it has something to do with seeing her win games with her ult a few times already. For whatever reason I very much like Baby Nissa and I'm happy to give her a spot in my cube.
5. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - Provides a different set of pros to the slot which is great. Kind of how the red 4-drop slot is I'm happy to run one of either Nekrataal and Skinrender, then Braids and Kalitas. I've noticed some people have cooled off on this card but it's been playing out very well here. I doubt I'll be replacing anytime soon.
After adding Blinkmoth Nexus (been quite happy with it so far) and Dust Bowl, I have somewhere around 18 colourless sources in my 420 from just lands and rocks (not counting in colour cards like STE and Yavimaya Elder, etc). Since I only added a couple of colourless matters cards, the four Wastes I have sleeved up have been enough (I think only two have been used at a time). Should more colourless sources be required moving forward, I can flip the Signets into Talismans.
1. Thought-Knot Seer - Okay so I'm now in love with this card. I think his/her eye in chest and lobster arm things are adorable. As others have pointed out, the ability to exile all kinds of problem cards from sweepers to combo pieces has been amazing. Gives mostly/mono coloured decks a decent way of hitting key cards that they would otherwise have a very hard time dealing with. And 4/4 is a very respectable body that packs a punch and isn't easily removed. This card has been run in Mono Red, BBr Aggro, GGr Ramp and a Selesnya aggressive midrange deck where it ripped a Languish on curve.
2. Reality Smasher - Very good card. Awesome in the midrange v control matchup.
3/4. Eldrazi Displacer/Bearer of Silence - If the colourless was in their casting cost I wouldn't be able to run them at all. But since it's a 'kicker' of sorts they become much more playable. Of the two Displacer is the better card but is in a much more competitive slot. Bearer is in a slot that can use the base Interloper body (which rarely misses the cut in BX aggro) so I plan to keep him until a better 2-drop aggro dude is printed.
Chandra, Flamecaller - need more reps with this card. I hear good things but I don't know if she'd be better than Sarkhan for my cube... a card I currently don't run. In for now but don't know for how long.
Sylvan Advocate - I cut the cord on green aggro so this was also chopped. Quality creature but I just don't have a home for him anymore. If I bring green aggro back I'd most likely include this guy.
Interested to hear more about Mirrorpool. Ceiling looks pretty high especially in smaller lists.
Kalitas and Reflector Mage have been really great for me and my group.
Eldrazi Displacer has been neat, went infinite in a deck with Channel and Siege Rhino... Go figure eh?
I have quite a few colorless sources via lands and rocks, so colorless is pretty nice. Thought knot and smasher are a beating. Kozilek is better than expected, I've seen him hard cast twice and counter many spells.
Bearer of Silence is not a bad card without the kicker, I wish it could block though. Good but not great.
I haven't had any significant testing with Sea Gate Wreckage yet either.
Chandra is good but I would not cube it over Sarkhan, who I'd throw in any size cube, he's arguably red's best 5 drop and is certainly within the top 3.
When I played mirrorpool, I got to copy arc lightning to kill a rabblemaster and a board of bitterblossom tokens. Another time I got to copy consecrated sphinx. Overall it was pretty insane.
I don't think too many are on the fence about Reflector Mage, but if you are I think he is worth it. Sphinx's Revelation made way for the Mage recently in my 360 leaving Geist and Verdict. I got to play Reflector and he was great every time, leaves behind a good body and provides great tempo. Was really hoping to pick up a Resto Angel etc for value but even as a one time use and then a blocker/attacker, great.
Oath of Nissa was main decked and the player really enjoyed this card in an Abzan build. Bearer of Silence has some great outings and a terrible one against a tokens deck but overall was good. The other OGW inclusions either weren't in the pool or were taken by people not in those colours.
Oath is Nissa is indeed pretty awesome. She manage to kick a mana elf from my 360, and I don't think I'll reverse the change anytime soon if the oath is keep getting main deck.
So far Chandra has been amazing. Nissa, Kalitas, oath of Nissa, Sylvan Advocate, and Reflector Mage have all pulled their weight and seen main deck play to positive effect.
The real story for us is supporting the colourless package. Best implementation so far has been Worldknit + Wastes. Even with all pain lands, some filters, and some talismans, the mana and the creatures haven't ever seemed to wind up in the same deck.
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Exactly that. She's also been awesome for our plaugroup. Really like her so far.
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I cut her after a couple (favourable) tests, but think I'm gonna bring her back in for another one. Supporting a little more token decks in current iteration and a couple experiments in green failed.
Her and reflector Mage were my biggest underestimations of the set.
Ps, very glad to hear all these opinions. Think it's good habit for the community for 3 stages of analysis.
Pre-thoughts, initial impressions and 1-3 month impressions. Thanks for all the feedback!
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I think I would cut supreme verdict before I would cut detention sphere...
If you are really strict with ensuring only 3 cards per guild and you want to insure white has enough sweepers... I think the gap in power between terminus and the 4cc sweepers are pretty small. If I were managing your cube, I would find a way to get terminus in and cut verdict for reflector mage.
2 wraths + terminus + catastrophe is more than enough wrath redundancy for white imo.
Both verdict/sphere are more powerful than reflector mage, but less interesting. AND they are cards you don't want too many of in decks. I find myself cutting 2nd/3rd wraths in decks much more often than I'm cutting 2nd or 3rd Oring effects.
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It's true that the first wrath is much more important than the first o-ring, but find it's pretty rare that if you cube 4 wraths in white, one or two won't find its way to a UW control player. Wraths are more narrow than o-ring effects, so they are fought over less. 2 wraths per deck is generally a sweet spot, and 3 is almost always overkill... But yeah, a pure control deck without a wrath is almost always a train wreck, so ensuring that happens is something.
Thinking about it more I take back what I said. I had also forgotten about grasp of fate.
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Jam it in there and watch it **** ***** up.
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White
- Oblivion Ring
- Banishing Light
- Council's Judgment
- Grasp of Fate
And to a lesser extent, Unexpectedly Absent and Faith's Fetters / Quarantine Field if you play those.
Black
- Hero's Downfall
- Ruinous Path
Green
- Song of the Dryads
Multicolored
- Detention Sphere
- Vindicate
- Maelstrom Pulse
Not to mention: Pernicious Deed / Abrupt Decay / Dreadbore
All this on top of the bounce / burn that blue and red has.
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1. Manlands - These have all been great. I was down on them when they were spoiled but to be honest it was because I was hoping for a land in the same tier as Colonnade/Tar Pit. None of them are quite as good but that's not to say they're bad. I've yet to see one in a sideboard, including Needle Spires, which has surprisingly been fine even in dedicated aggro. Notably, I ran Needle Spires in a mostly red burn deck with a splash of white where it acted as a great mana sink after I've played out most of my hand. Double strike has proven to be a very good ability allowing it to attack into most dudes and also allowing it to deal significant damage to the face. Works great in the colours that have access to burn and wraths (and I was quite down on this manland in particular due to it coming in tapped in an aggro heavy guild).
2. Reflector Mage - I'd rank this the second best non-land card in Azorius. Card is real nice. Comfortably blocks a large portion of the field, survives a bit of burn, and gives opponents less choice.
3. Oath of Nissa - Green card selection working as advertised.
4. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - It's possible that I like Baby Nissa more than I should because I want to like her. To be honest I can't even put my finger on why I like her exactly. Maybe it has something to do with her being a 3-drop in the colour that can reliably cast her on turn 2. Maybe it's because the 0/1's have been so handy at clogging up the board creating space and buying time for ramp. They also synergize well with a lot of cube mainstays that pretty much everyone runs already. It could also be the fact that she's able to turn elves, sages and witnesses into actual threats when required. Or perhaps it has something to do with seeing her win games with her ult a few times already. For whatever reason I very much like Baby Nissa and I'm happy to give her a spot in my cube.
5. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - Provides a different set of pros to the slot which is great. Kind of how the red 4-drop slot is I'm happy to run one of either Nekrataal and Skinrender, then Braids and Kalitas. I've noticed some people have cooled off on this card but it's been playing out very well here. I doubt I'll be replacing anytime soon.
After adding Blinkmoth Nexus (been quite happy with it so far) and Dust Bowl, I have somewhere around 18 colourless sources in my 420 from just lands and rocks (not counting in colour cards like STE and Yavimaya Elder, etc). Since I only added a couple of colourless matters cards, the four Wastes I have sleeved up have been enough (I think only two have been used at a time). Should more colourless sources be required moving forward, I can flip the Signets into Talismans.
1. Thought-Knot Seer - Okay so I'm now in love with this card. I think his/her eye in chest and lobster arm things are adorable. As others have pointed out, the ability to exile all kinds of problem cards from sweepers to combo pieces has been amazing. Gives mostly/mono coloured decks a decent way of hitting key cards that they would otherwise have a very hard time dealing with. And 4/4 is a very respectable body that packs a punch and isn't easily removed. This card has been run in Mono Red, BBr Aggro, GGr Ramp and a Selesnya aggressive midrange deck where it ripped a Languish on curve.
2. Reality Smasher - Very good card. Awesome in the midrange v control matchup.
3/4. Eldrazi Displacer/Bearer of Silence - If the colourless was in their casting cost I wouldn't be able to run them at all. But since it's a 'kicker' of sorts they become much more playable. Of the two Displacer is the better card but is in a much more competitive slot. Bearer is in a slot that can use the base Interloper body (which rarely misses the cut in BX aggro) so I plan to keep him until a better 2-drop aggro dude is printed.
Chandra, Flamecaller - need more reps with this card. I hear good things but I don't know if she'd be better than Sarkhan for my cube... a card I currently don't run. In for now but don't know for how long.
Sylvan Advocate - I cut the cord on green aggro so this was also chopped. Quality creature but I just don't have a home for him anymore. If I bring green aggro back I'd most likely include this guy.
Interested to hear more about Mirrorpool. Ceiling looks pretty high especially in smaller lists.
Kalitas and Reflector Mage have been really great for me and my group.
Eldrazi Displacer has been neat, went infinite in a deck with Channel and Siege Rhino... Go figure eh?
I have quite a few colorless sources via lands and rocks, so colorless is pretty nice. Thought knot and smasher are a beating. Kozilek is better than expected, I've seen him hard cast twice and counter many spells.
Bearer of Silence is not a bad card without the kicker, I wish it could block though. Good but not great.
I haven't had any significant testing with Sea Gate Wreckage yet either.
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Oath of Nissa was main decked and the player really enjoyed this card in an Abzan build. Bearer of Silence has some great outings and a terrible one against a tokens deck but overall was good. The other OGW inclusions either weren't in the pool or were taken by people not in those colours.
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The real story for us is supporting the colourless package. Best implementation so far has been Worldknit + Wastes. Even with all pain lands, some filters, and some talismans, the mana and the creatures haven't ever seemed to wind up in the same deck.