MTG Salvation

Currently brainstorming ideas for a new cube.

When I draft, I definitely go for the most durdly deck possible. But I know that at least 1 or 2 viable aggro strategies are needed for any good cube environment (?).

Instead of supporting your normal red aggro, I was thinking of supporting a goblin tribal theme (in a non-tribal cube).

I figure there are at least a few goblins that fit into other decks/archetypes that are already going to be included in the list, like: Goblin Welder and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

Has anyone tried supporting this in their cube? (Should I support 1 or 2 more tribes, like elves?)

I still want the majority of the cube to play "normally." But if I were to go mono-red in a draft, I think it might be fun to know that goblins was available.

(edit: What other goblins are already included in your cube lists? I want to get a sense of how many goblins can fall easily into other existing decks/archetypes.)

I have 5 red goblins in my cube, but they don't all work in the same deck.

The problem with counting Goblin Welder and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is that they're not good in goblin tribal. They're goblins, but they're bad aggro cards, which is what goblin tribal wants to be doing. Very few commonly cubed goblins are good in both goblin-tribal aggro AND other archetypes. The exception being cards like Siege-Gang Commander & Goblin Rabblemaster, which can support both tribal goblins and a token archetype. I think that would be the way to go; using goblin lords for the goblin-tribal deck, and lots of goblin-token cards that can be played in both goblin-tribal and in a tokens.dec. The token makers are also good for Stax decks, if you support that decktype in Rakdos.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

I have 5 red goblins in my cube, but they don't all work in the same deck.

The problem with counting Goblin Welder and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is that they're not good in goblin tribal. They're goblins, but they're bad aggro cards, which is what goblin tribal wants to be doing. Very few commonly cubed goblins are good in both goblin-tribal aggro AND other archetypes. The exception being cards like Siege-Gang Commander & Goblin Rabblemaster, which can support both tribal goblins and a token archetype. I think that would be the way to go; using goblin lords for the goblin-tribal deck, and lots of goblin-token cards that can be played in both goblin-tribal and in a tokens.dec. The token makers are also good for Stax decks, if you support that decktype in Rakdos.

Yeah, I can see how Welder and Kiki-Jiki don't necessarily fit into goblin tribal. But I'm also thinking it can work both ways. Minor goblin themes may bleed into non-goblin decks. For example, let's say you have Kiki-Jiki and Siege-Gang Commander in your draft pool. And let's say you got a 13th pick Goblin Burrows in one of your packs.

Maybe worth considering? Or still not good enough to make the cut?

Also, what is your 5th goblin?

edit: Nevermind. I just took a look at your list.

No, having a Goblin Burrows would not make me any more likely to maindeck Goblin Welder or Kiki-Jiki in a deck that wasn't playing them already.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

No, having a Goblin Burrows would not make me any more likely to maindeck Goblin Welder or Kiki-Jiki in a deck that wasn't playing them already.

Again, the other way around.

Goblin Wlder or Kiki-Jiki already in your deck.

Now decided if your deck can support a random colorless land.

I picked a land for this example as a low-impact way a goblin tribal theme may effect an otherwise non-tribal cube.

No, the presence of a Goblin Welder in my deck does not allow Goblin Burrows to make up for tapping for colorless mana. I would need to be playing a tribal aggro goblins deck before I would want to play Burrows, and that deck won't be playing Goblin Welder or Kiki-Jiki (unless my draft went really poorly).

Quote from wtwlf123 »

No, the presence of a Goblin Welder in my deck does not allow Goblin Burrows to make up for tapping for colorless mana. I would need to be playing a tribal aggro goblins deck before I would want to play Burrows, and that deck won't be playing Goblin Welder or Kiki-Jiki (unless my draft went really poorly).

I can't tell if you're being intentionally literal or if you've already thought about this long ago and it's always leads in a dead end.

I'm talking about incidental value.

What if you had 2 incidental goblins? 3? 4? 5? 6?

What if you also had a card that required <> mana? What if you had 2?

More than anything else, I'm looking for suggestions for other goblins that are already in other people's cubes to see if enough incidental value may stack high enough to make this worth testing.

The tokens was a good suggestion.

I think the only deck that would have a enough goblins to make Burrows worth it would be a goblin aggro deck. And that deck wouldn't be playing the "incidental" goblins you're referring to.

I'm not being clear.

Have you ever introduced a theme into your cube which was so cookie cutter and the cards you included were so narrow that they only fit into one archetype?
Have you ever introduced a theme into your cube which have cards which regularly saw play in existing archetypes in addition to the intended injected archetype?
Do you think goblins could fall into the latter category?

For example: Storm.
Have you ever tried Storm in your cube?
Did it work?
Why?
Why not?

Now apply those answers to goblins.

I understood what you've been saying. You just don't like my answers.

Quote from Ninja Bob »

Have you ever introduced a theme into your cube which have cards which regularly saw play in existing archetypes in addition to the intended injected archetype?

Yes

Quote from Ninja Bob »

Do you think goblins could fall into [that] category?

No

I think what wtwlf123 is getting at is that by not fitting with the gameplan of a typical Kiki or Welder deck (which usually feature combo kills and few goblins), the utility of a land like Burrows is lowered to the point where the cost of including a colorless land in your deck exceeds what you're getting out of it. If your typical Kiki/Welder decks can't afford to play Burrows, then that "incidental" upside becomes no upside at all. The same principle applies to a card like Goblin Warchief: technically it beefs up Kiki, but who wants to play them in the same deck unless you're fully committing to goblins?

Goblins can probably work in cube, since red aggro already has some built-in narrowness to it and there are many good goblins available to you. But you'll find that there's very little that unifies them with the rest of the cube unless you're willing to go the tribal or token route.

Ya. I think goblin tribal can work, but I would stick to its wheelhouse ...which is aggro or tokens. The "incidental value" goblins don't benefit from the goblin tribal cards out there in a way that will benefit the kinds of decks that play them.

Like, Goblin Burrows doesn't benefit the incidental goblin inclusions (like Kiki and Welder) in the same way that Riptide Laboratory might benefit the incidental wizards (like Glen Elendra and Venser). But if your goblin plan is to bash face through the red zone, Burrows looks a lot more reasonable.

In my 450 I have 7 goblins, roughly the same amount as the number of elves. These numbers are not enough to push in a lot of inferior cards, unfortunately.
The good news is, you already have 2 "lords" in Rabblemaster and Siege-Gang Commander. Adding a few fringe goblins will help the synergy.

Mogg War Marshall (supports tokens),
Dragon Foddler (supports storm and tokens)
Blast From the Past, (supports tokens, storm, graveyard and madness!)
Tattermunge Maniac (aggro)
Mirror Entity (off color but supports goblins and tokens)
Ember Hauler
Zo-Zu (acts as a 2nd Ankh)
Pyrewild Shaman (bad card - but can recur)

I think adding narrow lords or other tribal interactions will make your cube weaker unless they stand out on their own.

To digress, I think humans would be a better tribe to build on.

In addition to what's already been mentioned, there are a few more Goblins that are solid on their own, like Goblin Guide, Goblin Heelcutter, Goblin Dark-dwellers, Boggart Ram-gang, Squee, Goblin Nabob, and Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. I'm running all of these right now except for Dark-Dwellers, if Splinter Twin/Kiki-Jiki combo weren't clogging up my red 5-drop slot I'd be trying Dark-Dwellers, too.

If I were interested in pushing Goblin tribal as an archetype I'd be taking a serious look at the following cards which are also efficient enough for aggro/tokens decks:

Mogg Fanatic
Goblin Wardriver
Goblin Shortcutter
Spike Jester
Boggart Brute
Beetleback Chief
Frenzied Goblin
Hordeling Outburst
Mogg War-Marshal
Goblin Ruinblaster


You definitely want to include some nice payoff cards if you want to support this archetype, and a few narrow archetype-specific cards are fine, but I wouldn't bother with Goblin Burrows unless you run a separate utility land draft. It's a durdly mana sink for a tribe that wants to be fast and aggressive. I'd run Mutavault or Strip Mine over Goblin Burrows even in a Goblin-based aggro deck. Siege-gang Commander and Goblin Rabblemaster are fine payoff cards for Goblin tribal that are so solid on their own that they're already cube staples, but if you want to include more I'd add Goblin Chieftain first then maybe Goblin King or Goblin Warchief.

Adaptive Automaton would be a good addition for tribal themes.