I'm pretty confident avacyn having her flip side has a positive expected value over a hypothetical clone of the card that didn't have the flip side.
There are times it will screw you royally, but I predict overall it will be benefecial. You have more control over it than your opponent (you build your deck, you cast the creatures).. And even in the worst case scenario, doming them for 3 will help offset the downside a bit.
Just how good the flipside is will be hard to evaluate (and subsequently, this creature) because it has a LOT of variance attached to it and depends on many many variables.
[quote from="Zetsu_Sensei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/676233-archangel-avacyn-avacyn-the-purifier?comment=74"]Except when creatures you control die is an upside, Zulaport Cutthorat, Blood artist, Falkenrath Noble. This card is as close to an "all-in" finisher as you can get, in the right build of course.
Who's playing those cards anyway?
</blockquote>
I think many many cubes are about 1-2 good recursive creature away from blood artist and zulaport cutthroat being correct to add.
The two biggest resounding successes of the duplicates in my cube are the sacrifice based black agressive decks and birthing pod decks. They are interesting, powerful (but not overpowered), require good drafting/deck building and are complicated to pilot well. Everyone who plays my cube for a while enjoys their prescence.
Blood artist is one of the most powerful cards in those decks... And I believe a singleton cube is very close to being able to support the whole sacrifice package.
Despite dealing with some minor collateral damage when it transforms, it's still probably an upside overall. A) You build with the effect in mind, which will make the effect less likely to backfire. B) It kills all your opponents small creatures too, and they didn't deckbuild with her in mind. And C) It deals 3 damage to the opponent and then attacks for 6, which is a pretty fast clock, especially since it kills all the small flying tokens that might be able to chump block her.
I think this card is great with a side of great, and I can't wait to put it in the cube.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with anybody's decision to cut Reveilark for Avacyn, we've gotten to the point in this slot where we can support whatever we want without losing card quality.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with anybody's decision to cut Reveilark for Avacyn, we've gotten to the point in this slot where we can support whatever we want without losing card quality.
I agree that if you don't run aggro or specific combo pieces that interact with Llark, maybe you can think about that swap. Both otherwise, this is a no go for our playgroup. Llark is an all-star. And that's even without consedering the fact that it has a certain nostalgic value for many cube designers. But I fully understand your point. Just not completely agree with it.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with anybody's decision to cut Reveilark for Avacyn, we've gotten to the point in this slot where we can support whatever we want without losing card quality.
On the contrary, we get to pick 5-drops for function. If you want 'Lark, Avacyn is a bad replacement for it, as they excel in different builds. None of the top-tier white 5-drops are really interchangeable.
That's what I meant by being able to support whatever you want, and it's not just limited to the 5 CMC slot. If you want all-in token support, you can easily run a suite of Cloudgoat Ranger / whatever the 3/4 lifelink +1/+1 counter angel is / Avacyn for the combat trick and pseudo Boros Charm / Wingmate Roc with Sublime Archangel / Emeria Angel / Precinct Captain support from other slots. If you want to support an all-in life gain suite, you can go Baneslayer Angel / other lifelink angel / Avacyn (doesn't gain life but vigilance is close enough) with Exalted Angel / Hidden Dragonslayer / other lifegainers. If I want to support reanimator more, I'd throw in Karmic Guide and Eternal Dragon, etc.
Nothing is 100% obvious when there's a lot of moving pieces to consider.
What are some thoughts about replacing Exalted Angel with Avacyn? Obviously Exalted is an amazing turn 4 beater, who isn't bad as a topdeck late game either. Avacyn is a fantastic combat trick / team-saver who can hit really, really hard.
Man this is rough. She feels like one heck of an aggro curve-topper, but all I find myself wanting to cut are control elements, which seems unwise. I need to proxy her up and see how she plays.
I wouldn't cut Exalted Angel for this mainly because they do two totally different things at different points of the curve. Exalted Angel technically goes into more decks and is crucial to the morph package.
I build more for what my group is drafting and I always try and update the Cube to include a flavour from whatever the current set it. Whilst I don't think Avacyn replaces any of the top tier 5 drops in White, Cloudgoat can sit out for a bit while this comes in mainly because it isn't drafted much even though tokens is pretty well supported.
Yeah, fully understand that.
Just saying sometimes it will be worth it if that 9 points isn't going to get through and you can clear up a good amount of their board state.
She was played in a WR aggro deck today (was questioning if she would do well in that shell but she did). One game I was at 8 life with a bunch of weenies (black aggro) facing Keldon Marauders. At the end of my turn op casted Avacyn, then attacked with her on his turn. She flipped for the win on my upkeep thanks to Marauders (and if her flip wasn't lethal it also wiped my board). I saw Hellspark Elemental and Greater Gargodon help her flip during other matches as well.
Doing 3 to all other creatures is a mixed blessing, sometimes it will be the perfect Wrath on their guys, sometimes it will do you more damage than them. Her indestructible effect encourages you to play dorks but her flip effect discourages it, certainly those with <4 toughness. In control decks the flip will be a very useful tool however in aggressive and some midrange decks the flip will be something you have to work around quite hard and that ultimately causes you to lose some advantages.
Found the reflexion interesting. Partially what I think about the card, FWIW.
I like how she's an indestructible combat trick that doubles as a Serra Angel that can go crazy with damage. I'm probably not going to run her in my white aggro decks since I'd rather play Armageddon / Winter Orb, I think she's more at home in midrange / control decks.
As far as her drawback goes, just don't play non-angel creatures, problem solved!
So, I trt her. She's a 360 level power level combat trick. I hope to never cut her from my cube. I "might" try to keep her over Baneslayer and Cloudgoat even.
If you're cutting her, that means they're printing phenomenal cards--seems like the best problem ever to have.
I don't think that's the best problem to have. Wizards have to handle power creep carefully. I don't want to play Yi-Go-Oh .
Printing different cards on a similar power level as existing cards is fine and it gives each cube designer some 'wriggle room' to personalize their cube. But I hope they will keep the 'obvious better' cards to a minimum in new sets.
I'm not saying let's turn it to yu-gi-oh, but it's not like Avacyn is a Black Lotus--they're certainly capable of playing better cards, and I'll certainly be happier playing better cards even if it means I'm not playing good ones.
How has Avacyn been playing? She was always going in to my Cube, just a matter of getting one, well, I bought a sneaky Booster at lunch and what do you know, I now own Avacyn, so she is in. Any surprises or interesting decks she is going into?
There are times it will screw you royally, but I predict overall it will be benefecial. You have more control over it than your opponent (you build your deck, you cast the creatures).. And even in the worst case scenario, doming them for 3 will help offset the downside a bit.
Just how good the flipside is will be hard to evaluate (and subsequently, this creature) because it has a LOT of variance attached to it and depends on many many variables.
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I think many many cubes are about 1-2 good recursive creature away from blood artist and zulaport cutthroat being correct to add.
The two biggest resounding successes of the duplicates in my cube are the sacrifice based black agressive decks and birthing pod decks. They are interesting, powerful (but not overpowered), require good drafting/deck building and are complicated to pilot well. Everyone who plays my cube for a while enjoys their prescence.
Blood artist is one of the most powerful cards in those decks... And I believe a singleton cube is very close to being able to support the whole sacrifice package.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I think this card is great with a side of great, and I can't wait to put it in the cube.
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OMG that would be a sin! Just joking around. Ranger is a pure beast
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I agree that if you don't run aggro or specific combo pieces that interact with Llark, maybe you can think about that swap. Both otherwise, this is a no go for our playgroup. Llark is an all-star. And that's even without consedering the fact that it has a certain nostalgic value for many cube designers. But I fully understand your point. Just not completely agree with it.
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On the contrary, we get to pick 5-drops for function. If you want 'Lark, Avacyn is a bad replacement for it, as they excel in different builds. None of the top-tier white 5-drops are really interchangeable.
And I wouldn't cut 'Lark for Avacyn.
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StaffNothing is 100% obvious when there's a lot of moving pieces to consider.
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Man this is rough. She feels like one heck of an aggro curve-topper, but all I find myself wanting to cut are control elements, which seems unwise. I need to proxy her up and see how she plays.
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Just saying sometimes it will be worth it if that 9 points isn't going to get through and you can clear up a good amount of their board state.
just an interaction that is worth noting.
Doing 3 to all other creatures is a mixed blessing, sometimes it will be the perfect Wrath on their guys, sometimes it will do you more damage than them. Her indestructible effect encourages you to play dorks but her flip effect discourages it, certainly those with <4 toughness. In control decks the flip will be a very useful tool however in aggressive and some midrange decks the flip will be something you have to work around quite hard and that ultimately causes you to lose some advantages.
Found the reflexion interesting. Partially what I think about the card, FWIW.
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StaffAs far as her drawback goes, just don't play non-angel creatures, problem solved!
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If you're cutting her, that means they're printing phenomenal cards--seems like the best problem ever to have.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Printing different cards on a similar power level as existing cards is fine and it gives each cube designer some 'wriggle room' to personalize their cube. But I hope they will keep the 'obvious better' cards to a minimum in new sets.
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StaffDon't listen to these fools, please give me my Baneslayer Angel with vigilance, flash, and an ETB team indestructible trigger.
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