Strictly better describes a card which is, in isolation from other effects, superior to another card in at least one respect, while being worse in zero respects.[1] Cards are commonly found to be strictly better than others by virtue of lower cost, larger effect, instant speed, greater power or toughness, or more versatile or added effects.
This means Avacyn Archangel is strictly better than Serra Angel because of Avacyn's Flash, transformability, and ETB triggers, but it isn't strictly better or worse than Reveillark, Baneslayer Angel, Karmic Guide, Cloudgoat Ranger, Archangel of Thune or even something completely terrible like Jeweled Spirit because of the distinctive features of each that just don't have direct corollaries.
Similarly, Lightning Bolt might be much better than Incinerate, but it isn't strictly better because of the anti-regeneration clause, and both are strictly better than Searing Spear.
About the flip, I just can't imagine her just simply transform without any sac-outlets.
Agreed. I see this flip being pretty tough to pull off with any consistency and often being easy to play around.
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I like this more than Dictate of Heliod since it's good on its own and slots into more decks, tokens have more than enough support without Dictate, IMO.
I'm still not sure how I feel about it. Those that love Karmic Guide and Reveillark often gloss over the fact that both of those have some set up cost which limit their decks and uses. I'm not sure if it is easier or harder for Avacyn to reach the top of its very high power ceiling.
Alas I think it may be just to hard to hit the flip the turn it comes in, or even as it goes back around to your turn. Striking back for 9 is a ton from a 5 drop. It seems great to flash this in to stop an attack then alpha strike back. If they block smaller dudes, this will flip and finish their blockers.
I actually like this is a red white deck fairly well where you have lots of your creatures dieing on their own pushing through some extra damage for the win is pretty good.
Having game changing abilities on both etb and flip gives her a ridiculously high ceiling that's hard to ignore (that flash is so good). If it gets down to it I can imagine slotting her in over Cloudgoat or even Baneslayer for a while as she looks like a card that's hard to evaluate without playtesting. Everyone proxy her in and seed her into your drafts and share your results! Would be nice to get feedback on her since she's guaranteed to come with a fat preorder price tag (especially if you're one of the sick people who keep a second copy of flip cards with their tokens).
If we're nitpicking (being the cube forum and all lol) Avacyn Archangel isn't strictly better than Serra Angel because of the off-chance the opponent can use her flip ability against your own team (hard to evaluate how often the opponent can use her flip ability against her but in my head it looks like a very low percentage of the time).
I appreciate the pedantry about strictly better, but to be clear she isn't actually strictly better than Serra Angel. The flip trigger will sometimes be worse for you than your opponent, and you can't control it.
Also, I feel like some people might not be reading her correctly, so just to be crystal clear she will never flip the turn you play her (barring Moonmist+creature type changing). Creature death makes makes her flip at the beginning of the next upkeep.
Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again. Tabac has strongly suggested on his blog that this is not how she will actually work, presumably due to some sort of DFC rule tweak that comes with Shadows. If you playtest her, I would play it so that she only flips to red and then doesn't flip back, regardless of how many creatures died.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again.
Really not sure about that part at all. Are current rules really going to make it happen like that? It's written : "transform Archangel Avancyn". As I read it, Avacyn, the Purifier isn't going to transform as the second trigger resolved, since she is not Archangel Avacyn anymore. No? Is it because they both are the same object on the field?
Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again.
Really not sure about that part at all. Are current rules really going to make it happen like that? It's written : "transform Archangel Avancyn". As I read it, Avacyn, the Purifier isn't going to transform as the second trigger resolved, since she is not Archangel Avacyn anymore. No? Is it because they both are the same object on the field?
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Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again.
Really not sure about that part at all. Are current rules really going to make it happen like that? It's written : "transform Archangel Avancyn". As I read it, Avacyn, the Purifier isn't going to transform as the second trigger resolved, since she is not Archangel Avacyn anymore. No? Is it because they both are the same object on the field?
Since it doesn't say "a card named Archangel Avacyn" it really means "transform this object." Transforming doesn't make the rules see it as a new object the way flickering does, so under current rules it would indeed flip back and forth depending on how many creatures died. However, as I mention, this is probably not how it will work with the rules as they exist by the time it releases, and I would not recommend playtesting it with the flip-flopping feature.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
This means Avacyn Archangel is strictly better than Serra Angel
Technically, it's not strictly better. When another creature you control dies, it transforms. And on its transformed side, it loses Vigilance (not to mention that it might kill a bunch of creatures you control). So there are cases (not extreme corner-cases, but legitimate scenarios) where it'll be worse than Serra.
I think it's better (a lot better) but not "strictly" better.
But really it's mostly semantics. If someone would actually argue for the inclusion of Serra over Avacyn, I'd think they were nuts. So it doesn't really matter.
I am surprised at the amount of on-the-fence hemming and hawwing here. Wtwlf is right. This thing is a monster, removal, team protection, finisher, defender, and blink synergy all in one, and that transform trigger is no joke. Regardless of whether it blows you out, it represents a world of hurt for your opponent. Absolutely should become part of the elite three alongside Baneslayer Angel and Cloudgoat Ranger
This means Avacyn Archangel is strictly better than Serra Angel
Technically, it's not strictly better. When another creature you control dies, it transforms. And on its transformed side, it loses Vigilance (not to mention that it might kill a bunch of creatures you control). So there are cases (not extreme corner-cases, but legitimate scenarios) where it'll be worse than Serra.
I think it's better (a lot better) but not "strictly" better.
But really it's mostly semantics. If someone would actually argue for the inclusion of Serra over Avacyn, I'd think they were nuts. So it doesn't really matter.
You and Sliver Lord are 100% correct, so I've inadvertently given yet another prime example of why we should generally err on the side of just not saying "strictly" better at all.
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I'd love to have space for this Avacyn with Dictate of Heliod to give an additional 5-drop combat trick to white (and Restoration Angel which is also sweet). Flash is a sweet mechanic & combat in Cube would be more exciting if we included more cards with that keyword.
Will definitely test at 540 & will report results back this weekend.
All this hype on strictly better is just so funny. I simply misspoked myself because english is not my main language, but I'm truly happy to have mount this debat!
She's very good; that much, at least, we can agree on. Still, I don't think I have room for her at 450. I have the Big Three of Baneslayer, Cloudgoat, and Reveillark, and I don't think she supplants any of those. I am running five white Planeswalkers though, so perhaps Gideon Jura can ride the pine for a bit if testing proves her to be even better than she looks.
if you're putting a mark against Avacyn for dying to removal, you have to put a MUCH bigger mark against Baneslayer for the same reason.
We all know that Baneslayer Angel fails the Vindicate test, but the ceilling on it is just so high when it does connect that a cube designer can't ignore it when he's considering options for the white 5-drop spots. It stabilizes so good and can swing back a losing game scenario.
All this hype on strictly better is just so funny. I simply misspoked myself because english is not my main language
The brouhaha is because plenty of Magic players who are native English speakers still make the same mistake, so don't feel bad, you have plenty of company!
I'd love to have space for this Avacyn with Dictate of Heliod to give an additional 5-drop combat trick to white (and Restoration Angel which is also sweet). Flash is a sweet mechanic & combat in Cube would be more exciting if we included more cards with that keyword.
I like this idea a lot, and I'm making a point of including as many flash creatures as I can in Bant in my Peasant cube. I wonder how far you could push that with cards that still stack up in a rare cube environment.
perhaps Gideon Jura can ride the pine for a bit if testing proves her to be even better than she looks
Gideon Jura is probably the best white 5-drop, not many cards can take over a board like Gideon can. It's a bargain at 5 mana. I'd look elsewhere for a cut.
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I cannot imagine a scenario in the near future where Gideon Jura isnt good enough for my cube. Unless you have some arbitrary cap on the # of Planeswalkers please find another cut.
This card is pretty nuts, but I don't want to cut anything for it. I like my white 5-drops a lot. I may cut something in the four or even three slot for it.
My problem is Serra Angel isn't good enough and there WILL be games where this is just a Serra Angel. So, will the times that she isn't just a Serra Angel be enough to outweigh the times when she is? I'm not convinced enough to cut any of my tried and true 5 drops.
This card is a stat monster akin to the prior-mentioned Baneslayer, Hero of Bladehold, and Restoration Angel. Just so clearly pushed in all the right ways that it slots in as essentially a permanent staple in pretty much all cubes. A little hesitation is understandable, but give this thing a test run at least. Lark is a great card, and promotes very fun synergies, but if I had to choose between it and this new flip angel based on power, it would lose no contest I suspect.
I didn't think this was necessary at first, but here's a brief, pedantic interlude....
This means Avacyn Archangel is strictly better than Serra Angel because of Avacyn's Flash, transformability, and ETB triggers,
And to keep up that pedantc interlude a tad longer. Avacyn archangel is definitely not strictly better than serra angel because of the transformability you mentioned.
Avacyn the purifier is not strictly better than serra angel so the only way the card could be strictly better than serra angel would be if the transform was a may-ability.
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I really don't like that all it takes is a removal spell from your opponent and then you can potentially wrath your own board. You don't control when you flip the angel and you have to deal 3 to all your creatures. It seems like too much of this card can be turned against you. I would almost consider the card better without the 3 damage to everything or if it didn't flip at all.
I didn't think this was necessary at first, but here's a brief, pedantic interlude....
From the MTGS Wiki's page on "Strictly better":
This means Avacyn Archangel is strictly better than Serra Angel because of Avacyn's Flash, transformability, and ETB triggers, but it isn't strictly better or worse than Reveillark, Baneslayer Angel, Karmic Guide, Cloudgoat Ranger, Archangel of Thune or even something completely terrible like Jeweled Spirit because of the distinctive features of each that just don't have direct corollaries.
Similarly, Lightning Bolt might be much better than Incinerate, but it isn't strictly better because of the anti-regeneration clause, and both are strictly better than Searing Spear.
Agreed. I see this flip being pretty tough to pull off with any consistency and often being easy to play around.
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Think there's a 50 percent chance she's as good as baneslayer/cloudgoat ranger/revilark and about a 10-15 percent chance she's slightly better.
its difficult to compare them all because they all optimize in different decks/archetypes and have different good/bad matchups.
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Alas I think it may be just to hard to hit the flip the turn it comes in, or even as it goes back around to your turn. Striking back for 9 is a ton from a 5 drop. It seems great to flash this in to stop an attack then alpha strike back. If they block smaller dudes, this will flip and finish their blockers.
I actually like this is a red white deck fairly well where you have lots of your creatures dieing on their own pushing through some extra damage for the win is pretty good.
I would maybe consider running this card if it didn't has a tranform flipside that blow out your own board.
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If we're nitpicking (being the cube forum and all lol) Avacyn Archangel isn't strictly better than Serra Angel because of the off-chance the opponent can use her flip ability against your own team (hard to evaluate how often the opponent can use her flip ability against her but in my head it looks like a very low percentage of the time).
Also, I feel like some people might not be reading her correctly, so just to be crystal clear she will never flip the turn you play her (barring Moonmist+creature type changing). Creature death makes makes her flip at the beginning of the next upkeep.
Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again. Tabac has strongly suggested on his blog that this is not how she will actually work, presumably due to some sort of DFC rule tweak that comes with Shadows. If you playtest her, I would play it so that she only flips to red and then doesn't flip back, regardless of how many creatures died.
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Really not sure about that part at all. Are current rules really going to make it happen like that? It's written : "transform Archangel Avancyn". As I read it, Avacyn, the Purifier isn't going to transform as the second trigger resolved, since she is not Archangel Avacyn anymore. No? Is it because they both are the same object on the field?
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I'd read the Gatherer entry for Bloodline Keeper and come back to us.
Since it doesn't say "a card named Archangel Avacyn" it really means "transform this object." Transforming doesn't make the rules see it as a new object the way flickering does, so under current rules it would indeed flip back and forth depending on how many creatures died. However, as I mention, this is probably not how it will work with the rules as they exist by the time it releases, and I would not recommend playtesting it with the flip-flopping feature.
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Technically, it's not strictly better. When another creature you control dies, it transforms. And on its transformed side, it loses Vigilance (not to mention that it might kill a bunch of creatures you control). So there are cases (not extreme corner-cases, but legitimate scenarios) where it'll be worse than Serra.
I think it's better (a lot better) but not "strictly" better.
But really it's mostly semantics. If someone would actually argue for the inclusion of Serra over Avacyn, I'd think they were nuts. So it doesn't really matter.
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You and Sliver Lord are 100% correct, so I've inadvertently given yet another prime example of why we should generally err on the side of just not saying "strictly" better at all.
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I'd love to have space for this Avacyn with Dictate of Heliod to give an additional 5-drop combat trick to white (and Restoration Angel which is also sweet). Flash is a sweet mechanic & combat in Cube would be more exciting if we included more cards with that keyword.
Will definitely test at 540 & will report results back this weekend.
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We all know that Baneslayer Angel fails the Vindicate test, but the ceilling on it is just so high when it does connect that a cube designer can't ignore it when he's considering options for the white 5-drop spots. It stabilizes so good and can swing back a losing game scenario.
Gideon Jura is one of the best white card ever print. I don't think that would be an adequate move.
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The brouhaha is because plenty of Magic players who are native English speakers still make the same mistake, so don't feel bad, you have plenty of company!
I like this idea a lot, and I'm making a point of including as many flash creatures as I can in Bant in my Peasant cube. I wonder how far you could push that with cards that still stack up in a rare cube environment.
Gideon Jura is probably the best white 5-drop, not many cards can take over a board like Gideon can. It's a bargain at 5 mana. I'd look elsewhere for a cut.
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And to keep up that pedantc interlude a tad longer. Avacyn archangel is definitely not strictly better than serra angel because of the transformability you mentioned.
Avacyn the purifier is not strictly better than serra angel so the only way the card could be strictly better than serra angel would be if the transform was a may-ability.
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