My problem is Serra Angel isn't good enough and there WILL be games where this is just a Serra Angel. So, will the times that she isn't just a Serra Angel be enough to outweigh the times when she is? I'm not convinced enough to cut any of my tried and true 5 drops.
If you gave Serra Angel flash without changing the cost... it would no longer be a Serra Angel.
Flash is a HUGE component which pushes the power level of the card to baneslayer levels.
The flip portion and ETB trigger is just icing on the cake.
Also, under the current rules, three creatures dying would make three triggers on your upkeep, and as they resolved she would flip to red, nuke stuff, flip back to white, and then flip back to red, burning stuff again.
Really not sure about that part at all. Are current rules really going to make it happen like that? It's written : "transform Archangel Avancyn". As I read it, Avacyn, the Purifier isn't going to transform as the second trigger resolved, since she is not Archangel Avacyn anymore. No? Is it because they both are the same object on the field?
Since it doesn't say "a card named Archangel Avacyn" it really means "transform this object." Transforming doesn't make the rules see it as a new object the way flickering does, so under current rules it would indeed flip back and forth depending on how many creatures died. However, as I mention, this is probably not how it will work with the rules as they exist by the time it releases, and I would not recommend playtesting it with the flip-flopping feature.
New rules article just came out, flip flopping no longer works.
Has anybody mentioned how stupid Avacyn is if you already have Recurring Nightmare in play? One sided Anger of the Goda anyone?
Or any sacrifice effect! Goblin Bombardment, Ayli, Greater Gargadon, ect.
EDIT: Re-read the card, the flip happens at beginning of NEXT upkeep, so indestructible will have worn off. Bummer.
Except she doesn't flip until the next turn. To get the protection and the anger of the gods on teh same turn you have to have some sort of instant clone like mirrorpool, or could blink her (restoration angel doesn't work but maybe momentary blink?), and this would be during the upkeep the turn after you sacrifice something.
Can I respond to the 3 damage on the stack, bouncing her with my crystal shard, let the bounce resolve and cast her in response to the damage still on the stack? I am thinking no, but lord knows someone in my group would try.
My problem is Serra Angel isn't good enough and there WILL be games where this is just a Serra Angel. So, will the times that she isn't just a Serra Angel be enough to outweigh the times when she is? I'm not convinced enough to cut any of my tried and true 5 drops.
I mean, there are games were revilark is just a flying 4/3 for 5.
There are games where wolfir silverheart is just a 4/4 for 5.
There are games where skinrinder is pay 2BB, kill your own skinrender.
The worst case scenario of a serra angel is definitely not amamzing, but it's far from horrible.
The frequency at which none of the abilities are relevant (if put into the proper deck) will be pretty uncommon.
How often this happens is impacted by good deck building/drafting. This makes for a good cube card.
EG probably shouldn't jam her into a tap out control deck with no creatures and no counter magic
My problem is Serra Angel isn't good enough and there WILL be games where this is just a Serra Angel. So, will the times that she isn't just a Serra Angel be enough to outweigh the times when she is? I'm not convinced enough to cut any of my tried and true 5 drops.
I mean, there are games were revilark is just a flying 4/3 for 5.
There are games where wolfir silverheart is just a 4/4 for 5.
There are games where skinrinder is pay 2BB, kill your own skinrender.
The worst case scenario of a serra angel is definitely not amamzing, but it's far from horrible.
The frequency at which none of the abilities are relevant (if put into the proper deck) will be pretty uncommon.
How often this happens is impacted by good deck building/drafting.
EG probably shouldn't jam her into a tap out control deck with no creatures and no counter magic
The problem with this analysis... is it ignores flash.
Worse case scenario a Serra avenger at instant speed is always relative.
If you reprinted Serra Avenger but gave it flash (without increasing the cost) I would guarantee you it would see competitive play.
The fact that it has other abilities is just icing on the cake.
Has anybody mentioned how stupid Avacyn is if you already have Recurring Nightmare in play? One sided Anger of the Goda anyone?
Or any sacrifice effect! Goblin Bombardment, Ayli, Greater Gargadon, ect.
EDIT: Re-read the card, the flip happens at beginning of NEXT upkeep, so indestructible will have worn off. Bummer.
Except she doesn't flip until the next turn. To get the protection and the anger of the gods on teh same turn you have to have some sort of instant clone like mirrorpool, or could blink her (restoration angel doesn't work but maybe momentary blink?), and this would be during the upkeep the turn after you sacrifice something.
Can I respond to the 3 damage on the stack, bouncing her with my crystal shard, let the bounce resolve and cast her in response to the damage still on the stack? I am thinking no, but lord knows someone in my group would try.
Whops, I forgot about that caveat : / Oh well, not a deal breaker for me.
If you reprinted Serra Avenger but gave it flash (without increasing the cost) I would guarantee you it would see competitive play.
I would have to complete disagree on that statement. Big time. How would someone play a flash Serra Angel over Restoration Angel. Absolutly no chance. Unless you are strictly referring to the Standard metagame. Then yeah, you're absolutly right. In fact, that's why Archangel Avacyn is going to see a lot of play in that format. But in Modern, Legacy or Vintage? You can't be serious. Maybe EDH...
I disagree with granting your creatures indestructible as just icing. It is specifically that ability with flash that makes her value go up. Without that she'd be a lot more meh. And the Slagstorm on flip can be a downside but what percentage of the time will that realistically be? I think it's being overstated too much. I mean FTK is still great even if it has to shoot one of your own guys every now and then. I'd certainly have Avacyn be a DFC even if the ability can potentially be used against you.
I disagree with granting your creatures indestructible as just icing. It is specifically that ability with flash that makes her value go up. Without that she'd be a lot more meh. And the Slagstorm on flip can be a downside but what percentage of the time will that realistically be? I think it's being overstated too much. I mean FTK is still great even if it has to shoot one of your own guys every now and then. I'd certainly have Avacyn be a DFC even if the ability can potentially be used against you.
Without flash you are correct: the indestructibility is meh.
Hence why I said the important part of the card is flash. And why the indestructibility is the "icing".
In my opinion: a 5 mana vigilance 4/4 that grants indestructibility until end of turn as a ETA ability is less powerful than a 4/4 vigilance angel with flash (for the same cost).
I would much rather have a vanilla 4/4 with flash for 5 than a ETA indestructibility effect at sorcery speed.
The fact that you get both in the same card... for zero increase in the cost... is phenomenal.
The fact that you get both in the same card... for zero increase in the cost... is phenomenal.
The reason why you're getting both in the same card for zero increase in the cost is because Serra Angel is a complete has-been magic card. It is so far away from actual creature standards that Archangel Avacyn has to have more value strap on it in order to worth its mythic and legendary stamp. There's nothing phenomenal in there IMO. WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) on it so the card doesn't become bustly overpower in the Standard format next to Gideon and Nissa planeswalker's form.
The fact that you get both in the same card... for zero increase in the cost... is phenomenal.
The reason why you're getting both in the same card for zero increase in the cost is because Serra Angel is a complete has-been magic card. It is so far away from actual creature standards that Archangel Avacyn has to have more value strap to it in order to worth its mythic and legendary stamp. WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) to it so the card doesn't beccome bustly overpower in the Standard format.
Actually it could be an upside. This card + Eldrazi Displacer (or other flicker effects) = good luck aggro decks winning.
Also as I previously stated: If you gave Serra Angel flash it would be good enough to see play in standard and cube.
Flash is often one of the most powerful things you can do in magic.
This card is fantastic. Maybe there isnt room at 360, but I'm surprised there is so much controversy over this card. It gives your creatures indestuctible the turn it comes into play so you will rarely be blown out then. It doesnt transform until the next upkeep, so if they kill one of your creatures on your turn it doesnt immediately wipe your board, you still get to swing in that turn. And if they do make it flip. they take 3, likely lose most of their creatures and you are left with a 6/5 flier. This card is great.
WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) on it so the card doesn't become bustly overpower in the Standard format next to Gideon and Nissa planeswalker's form.
Just to clarify, what downside are you referring to?
WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) on it so the card doesn't become bustly overpower in the Standard format next to Gideon and Nissa planeswalker's form.
Just to clarify, what downside are you referring to?
I'm referring to the fact that this card is a double egded sword. When it's already onto the battlefield, it prevent you from building your own board with anything that has less than 4 thoughness upon pain of being 2 for 1 at your end step (and, consequently, at your opponent's upkeep).
WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) on it so the card doesn't become bustly overpower in the Standard format next to Gideon and Nissa planeswalker's form.
Just to clarify, what downside are you referring to?
I'm referring to the fact that this card is a double egded sword. When it's already onto the battlefield, it prevent you from building your own board with anything that has less than 4 thoughness upon pain of being 2 for 1 at your end step (and consequently at your opponent upkeep).
Except when creatures you control die is an upside, Zulaport Cutthorat, Blood artist, Falkenrath Noble. This card is as close to an "all-in" finisher as you can get, in the right build of course.
[quote from="Zetsu_Sensei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/676233-archangel-avacyn-avacyn-the-purifier?comment=74"]Except when creatures you control die is an upside, Zulaport Cutthorat, Blood artist, Falkenrath Noble. This card is as close to an "all-in" finisher as you can get, in the right build of course.
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If you gave Serra Angel flash without changing the cost... it would no longer be a Serra Angel.
Flash is a HUGE component which pushes the power level of the card to baneslayer levels.
The flip portion and ETB trigger is just icing on the cake.
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Has anybody mentioned how stupid Avacyn is if you already have Recurring Nightmare in play? One sided Anger of the Goda anyone?
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Or any sacrifice effect! Goblin Bombardment, Ayli, Greater Gargadon, ect.
EDIT: Re-read the card, the flip happens at beginning of NEXT upkeep, so indestructible will have worn off. Bummer.
New rules article just came out, flip flopping no longer works.
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Except she doesn't flip until the next turn. To get the protection and the anger of the gods on teh same turn you have to have some sort of instant clone like mirrorpool, or could blink her (restoration angel doesn't work but maybe momentary blink?), and this would be during the upkeep the turn after you sacrifice something.
Can I respond to the 3 damage on the stack, bouncing her with my crystal shard, let the bounce resolve and cast her in response to the damage still on the stack? I am thinking no, but lord knows someone in my group would try.
I mean, there are games were revilark is just a flying 4/3 for 5.
There are games where wolfir silverheart is just a 4/4 for 5.
There are games where skinrinder is pay 2BB, kill your own skinrender.
The worst case scenario of a serra angel is definitely not amamzing, but it's far from horrible.
The frequency at which none of the abilities are relevant (if put into the proper deck) will be pretty uncommon.
How often this happens is impacted by good deck building/drafting. This makes for a good cube card.
EG probably shouldn't jam her into a tap out control deck with no creatures and no counter magic
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The problem with this analysis... is it ignores flash.
Worse case scenario a Serra avenger at instant speed is always relative.
If you reprinted Serra Avenger but gave it flash (without increasing the cost) I would guarantee you it would see competitive play.
The fact that it has other abilities is just icing on the cake.
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Obviously depending on your boardstate but a neat trick nonetheless.
Whops, I forgot about that caveat : / Oh well, not a deal breaker for me.
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I would have to complete disagree on that statement. Big time. How would someone play a flash Serra Angel over Restoration Angel. Absolutly no chance. Unless you are strictly referring to the Standard metagame. Then yeah, you're absolutly right. In fact, that's why Archangel Avacyn is going to see a lot of play in that format. But in Modern, Legacy or Vintage? You can't be serious. Maybe EDH...
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Without flash you are correct: the indestructibility is meh.
Hence why I said the important part of the card is flash. And why the indestructibility is the "icing".
In my opinion: a 5 mana vigilance 4/4 that grants indestructibility until end of turn as a ETA ability is less powerful than a 4/4 vigilance angel with flash (for the same cost).
I would much rather have a vanilla 4/4 with flash for 5 than a ETA indestructibility effect at sorcery speed.
The fact that you get both in the same card... for zero increase in the cost... is phenomenal.
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The reason why you're getting both in the same card for zero increase in the cost is because Serra Angel is a complete has-been magic card. It is so far away from actual creature standards that Archangel Avacyn has to have more value strap on it in order to worth its mythic and legendary stamp. There's nothing phenomenal in there IMO. WotC also strap a significant downside (that almost everyone seems to enjoy) on it so the card doesn't become bustly overpower in the Standard format next to Gideon and Nissa planeswalker's form.
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Actually it could be an upside. This card + Eldrazi Displacer (or other flicker effects) = good luck aggro decks winning.
Also as I previously stated: If you gave Serra Angel flash it would be good enough to see play in standard and cube.
Flash is often one of the most powerful things you can do in magic.
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I'm referring to the fact that this card is a double egded sword. When it's already onto the battlefield, it prevent you from building your own board with anything that has less than 4 thoughness upon pain of being 2 for 1 at your end step (and, consequently, at your opponent's upkeep).
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Except when creatures you control die is an upside, Zulaport Cutthorat, Blood artist, Falkenrath Noble. This card is as close to an "all-in" finisher as you can get, in the right build of course.
That's solid tech, but I'd rather take the potential 9 point life swing over protecting my board-state.
Who's playing those cards anyway?
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