After thinking this over, countering a counterspell if huge. I like this card. Not sure if it makes it in for the final build but I'm willing to give it a try.
I'm a little unsure about the wording on this card. Maybe someone could help me out. If I exile a sorcery spell and then for example bounce spell queller to my hand in my turn. Do they get to cast the sorcery then? Or later? Or not at all?
They would get to cast it then. Timing is ignored with certain abilities (such as suspend, for instance).
Ok, thank you very much. So I can't get value by exiling my opponents spells permanently. Still a fun card I want to include.
You actually can, if you have instant speed bounce, since for whatever reason they made this card with the old Oblivion Ring type of wording that they clearly have tried to avoid with temporary exile effects lately.
(So it works like this, unless I'm mistaken: let's say you have Crystal Shard in play. Opponent casts a spell, you cast Spell Queller, it resolves, and enters the battlefield. You put the ETB ability on the stack, and respond to that by bouncing Spell Queller with Shard. Once that resolves, Spell Queller's LTB goes on the stack: it lets your opponent cast "the exiled spell", but there's no exiled spell yet, so it fizzles. Then, the actual ETB effect happens, and the spell is permanently exiled.)
(So it works like this, unless I'm mistaken: let's say you have Crystal Shard in play. Opponent casts a spell, you cast Spell Queller, it resolves, and enters the battlefield. You put the ETB ability on the stack, and respond to that by bouncing Spell Queller with Shard. Once that resolves, Spell Queller's LTB goes on the stack: it lets your opponent cast "the exiled spell", but there's no exiled spell yet, so it fizzles. Then, the actual ETB effect happens, and the spell is permanently exiled.)
Getting to play the spell for free is the killer for me.
They aren't getting anything for free... they paid for the spell in the first place.
I am just comparing it to other tempoish counters like remand, memory lapse, or the new one where the item in question is delayed, and they have to wait on doing other things to try to get it through. You get to advance your board while slowing them down (Which is good) but the first removal spell evens it up pretty fast.
I am just comparing it to other tempoish counters like remand, memory lapse, or the new one where the item in question is delayed, and they have to wait on doing other things to try to get it through. You get to advance your board while slowing them down (Which is good) but the first removal spell evens it up pretty fast.
I suspect it might play a lot better in practice. And that's because there is a lot of power in knowing what spell is coming. You can now plan for it to some extent. Say your opponent plays Skinrender and you play this card. Now you know a -3/-3 effect is coming at some point. If you have some way to bounce spell queller, you can time it so that skinrender kills himself or something else on your opponent's board instead of yours (wrath will have the same outcome in this scenario). This sort of thing works with a lot of targeted effects too - removal, auras, etc. You cast Rancor, I cast this and maybe I end up getting Rancor in the end if I'm the only one with a creature when it resolves.
How often these corner cases come up though? Not 100% sure, but I'm guessing enough to where someone clever playing this is going to get a lot more mileage out of this card than what the baseline is showing.
Even delaying a wrath though... It allows you to play equipment instead of adding more bodies to the board to minimize how much it affects you (etc.), and it forces an additional piece of removal to remove spell queller. This card is probably better than Reflector Mage honestly, and the mage is sweet.
Better than Ref Mage? I don't know. That card is completely bonker. I can also imagine Spell Queller have an impact in most cubes, but the Mage is so easily abusable. One of the better UW card print so far IMO.
One area this card has Reflector Mage beat solidly is with the flying. Mage is not a good beatdown card. It has no evasion and two lowly power for 3 mana, so you need a clear board or some weak defense for it to be doing much for you. The bounce/delay recast is stellar obviously, but 2/3 flyer beats so much better and is the ability on this really worse than bounce a creature with delay recast? This bounces any spell not just creatures, and the only downside is the opponent gets to recast it for free if queller leaves play. Which honestly isn't always going to be negative since your opponent can't necessarily completely control the outcome of how that spell ends up resolving. Also, this has flash so you can hold it and play it on your opponents turn instead of committing to the move on your turn like you have to with mage.
Mage is great, but this card looks pretty ridiculous to me. Though my card evaluation skills are often pretty suspect, so grain of salt and what not.
Queller would be my swap for Soulherder, but honestly, I think that slot is pretty customizable.
I recently toyed around with the idea of an add-on to up my 540 cube up to 720 when it makes sense. Here is the 8 card Azorius section I came up with, in the order I think I'd include them as my guild section grew larger.
Fractured Identity
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Supreme Verdict (You could probably swap this and Teferi, Time Raveler in a 3 or 4 card section, if you played around with white and made room for Shatter the Sky.)
Talisman of Progress
Teferi, Time Raveler
Soulherder (This slot I think can be either this guy, Spell Queller, Geist, or Reflector Mage based on preference. I don't think I'd run more than one, though.)
Azorius Signet
Yorion, Sky Nomad (This is a test for me. This would be Dream Trawler if I wasn't trying out some companions.)
If I were to move both of the mana rocks to colorless, I'd probably just throw in the two 3-drop creatures I liked most in the 6th and 7th slots behind what I've listed here. For me that's probably Queller and Reflector Mage. I don't think Detention Sphere quite gets there anymore.
Dream Trawler has been very good for us which makes Azorius even more difficult.
I think you’re right on specifically limiting the 3-drop creatures. I’m thinking that Barrin makes Reflector Mage less important, so that cut is easier for me now. I’m just not seeing room for Spell Queller if we want to try Soulherder, so I guess it’s finally time to hit the bench.
I came back to Spell Queller recently and have been liking it a lot. Its value has really appreciated over time due to the increased amount of combo / monarch / initiative / bombs in general in my cube that this can contain. I'm always looking for more reactive cards with flash that have good board presence, and this fit the bill quite nicely.
I came back to Spell Queller recently and have been liking it a lot. Its value has really appreciated over time due to the increased amount of combo / monarch / initiative / bombs in general in my cube that this can contain. I'm always looking for more reactive cards with flash that have good board presence, and this fit the bill quite nicely.
This is definitely a strong card, especially as Blue/ White is heavily 2 CMC stacked and there is enormous room for strong 3 CMC options.
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They would get to cast it then. Timing is ignored with certain abilities (such as suspend, for instance).
You actually can, if you have instant speed bounce, since for whatever reason they made this card with the old Oblivion Ring type of wording that they clearly have tried to avoid with temporary exile effects lately.
(So it works like this, unless I'm mistaken: let's say you have Crystal Shard in play. Opponent casts a spell, you cast Spell Queller, it resolves, and enters the battlefield. You put the ETB ability on the stack, and respond to that by bouncing Spell Queller with Shard. Once that resolves, Spell Queller's LTB goes on the stack: it lets your opponent cast "the exiled spell", but there's no exiled spell yet, so it fizzles. Then, the actual ETB effect happens, and the spell is permanently exiled.)
Yeah it is. Judge?
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I am just comparing it to other tempoish counters like remand, memory lapse, or the new one where the item in question is delayed, and they have to wait on doing other things to try to get it through. You get to advance your board while slowing them down (Which is good) but the first removal spell evens it up pretty fast.
I suspect it might play a lot better in practice. And that's because there is a lot of power in knowing what spell is coming. You can now plan for it to some extent. Say your opponent plays Skinrender and you play this card. Now you know a -3/-3 effect is coming at some point. If you have some way to bounce spell queller, you can time it so that skinrender kills himself or something else on your opponent's board instead of yours (wrath will have the same outcome in this scenario). This sort of thing works with a lot of targeted effects too - removal, auras, etc. You cast Rancor, I cast this and maybe I end up getting Rancor in the end if I'm the only one with a creature when it resolves.
How often these corner cases come up though? Not 100% sure, but I'm guessing enough to where someone clever playing this is going to get a lot more mileage out of this card than what the baseline is showing.
Even delaying a wrath though... It allows you to play equipment instead of adding more bodies to the board to minimize how much it affects you (etc.), and it forces an additional piece of removal to remove spell queller. This card is probably better than Reflector Mage honestly, and the mage is sweet.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
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Mage is great, but this card looks pretty ridiculous to me. Though my card evaluation skills are often pretty suspect, so grain of salt and what not.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Who’s still playing Queller? I’m looking to try Soulherder and am trying to figure out which 7 Azorius cards to keep.
I recently toyed around with the idea of an add-on to up my 540 cube up to 720 when it makes sense. Here is the 8 card Azorius section I came up with, in the order I think I'd include them as my guild section grew larger.
Fractured Identity
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Supreme Verdict (You could probably swap this and Teferi, Time Raveler in a 3 or 4 card section, if you played around with white and made room for Shatter the Sky.)
Talisman of Progress
Teferi, Time Raveler
Soulherder (This slot I think can be either this guy, Spell Queller, Geist, or Reflector Mage based on preference. I don't think I'd run more than one, though.)
Azorius Signet
Yorion, Sky Nomad (This is a test for me. This would be Dream Trawler if I wasn't trying out some companions.)
If I were to move both of the mana rocks to colorless, I'd probably just throw in the two 3-drop creatures I liked most in the 6th and 7th slots behind what I've listed here. For me that's probably Queller and Reflector Mage. I don't think Detention Sphere quite gets there anymore.
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Dream Trawler has been very good for us which makes Azorius even more difficult.
I think you’re right on specifically limiting the 3-drop creatures. I’m thinking that Barrin makes Reflector Mage less important, so that cut is easier for me now. I’m just not seeing room for Spell Queller if we want to try Soulherder, so I guess it’s finally time to hit the bench.
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This is definitely a strong card, especially as Blue/ White is heavily 2 CMC stacked and there is enormous room for strong 3 CMC options.