I've played Pale Rider a lot longer, and what I said is exactly true. Not the opposite. If it wasn't, why would I still be running it?
At the end of the day, it's not my loss, and there's not much point in trying to convince one who has already made their mind up. The reasons to run it are there for folks to see, so if someone else reads it, wants to give it a go, and gets mileage from it, then job's a good 'un. Whether it's of use to a particular group or not we have a bunch of good red 2 drops of late, so there are plenty of other configurations of two drops that will work just fine. So each to their own.
Clearly it's working for your group. I'm trying to explain the reasons why it didn't work for us.
Quote from Goodking »
Whether it's of use to a particular group or not we have a bunch of good red 2 drops of late, so there are plenty of other configurations of two drops that will work just fine. So each to their own.
I support reanimator with red cards. But this isn't a card I want for that deck. Controlling the timing of when you discard the cards to your outlets means everything.
I appreciate the discourse. Pale Rider never stuck around for me but it wasn't bad. The difference I see here is that for me, there were lots of other discard enablers in black so I didn't need that part. More importantly the black two drops are better at helping black do what I want in cube.
Red on the other hand has only has Young Pyromancer as a Red 2 drop I like. High power is a big deal for red to get through blockers. And now that I am playing more graveyard stuff in red, the discard outlet is great option. Some people play firestorm but I don't care for that. I play gamble but I might be the only one on the forum who does. And my reanimator decks often have to worry about how aggressive my opponent is and a 4/3 to play on 2 is tremendous defense. This also seems to play well will Kolaghans command, bot hto get back somethign you discarded or to be able to get back this guy and play it in the same turn.
I'd rather just play Vexing Devil for R and risk 1-for-1ing with a 4-damage silver lining than set myself up for a 2-for-1 with this and getting nothing as a consolation prize. I understand it enables a few things, but I don't think it will do that a significant number of times to outweigh the times it doesn't.
I would play this over Vexing Devil as Devil is awful. Its pretty much just R: 4 damage to target player with downside for when they can deal with it and let it resolve, which is not a cube card.
It's funny how much experiences with some cards differ, even among cube players and groups that run traditional cubes. Pale Rider of Trostad has exceeded my expectations and has earned its slot in my cube (I included it almost purely as a reanimation enabler, but it was put into all kinds of decks), but then I read how displeased others were with that card. And again and gain I see praise for Young Pyromancer which always seemed very middle of the pack to me in cube.
From my personal experience with both of these cards, I am going to include Bloodrage Brawler and I expect him to be decent. A bit more of a role player than Pyromancer, but just as deserving of a slot in my cube as overrated goggles guy.
Btw, could someone change the tilte of this thread, please? The English name of this minotaur turned out to be Bloodrage Brawler.
I'm starting to think I didn't give pale rider enough time. Someone mentioned (maybe in this thread) that it took time for Young Pyromancer to find his grove which I can identify with. I now think it's probably red's coolest 2 drop but was on the fence about it originally. Maybe I'd think that of Pale Rider if I ran him longer? Might have to re-add him after all the staunch defense by long time cubers.
I'm starting to think I didn't give pale rider enough time. Someone mentioned (maybe in this thread) that it took time for Young Pyromancer to find his grove which I can identify with. I now think it's probably red's coolest 2 drop but was on the fence about it originally. Maybe I'd think that of Pale Rider if I ran him longer? Might have to re-add him after all the staunch defense by long time cubers.
One of the best parts of cube design is that if/when you mess up with card choices, you always just get to change things up again. I'd run Pale Rider of Trostad again if I were you, just to be sure how it fits with your playgroup. Why live with regret when you can just know for sure?
Even though PRoT works in other decks, I still would only include it if you support the reanimator archetype. That is its main home. Showing up in other decks is a welcome bonus.
I was never a fan of YP in cube. I actually like Aether Chaser more than Young Pyromancer. And I think outside of a dedicated spells matter deck, they are pretty much equally powerful.
Pale Rider's main home isn't reanimator, though. It's in Bloodghast/Gravecrawler recursion aggro kinds of decks. Those are the decks that both want a discard enabler AND happen to want a 3/3 skulk for 2. It's passable in reanimator if you're short on more fitting discard effects, but it would be way better as pretty much any discard outlet that gives you control over the window you discard in.
And that's the problem with this red creature. Not only is it only barely playable in decks like reanimator (which are largely off-color) ...but the primary use for the card (aggressive graveyard-centric decks) aren't found in its color.
If you want to play a red card that works well in reanimator and other graveyard-centric red decks (like Welder/Daretti/Feldon shells), play Tormenting Voice. The decks where this beatdown creature/discard outlet hybrid shine don't exist in red, unless you create them (with cards like Anger, Fiery Temper and other red Madness cards). This creature would be almost exclusively a recursion-aggro support card in my cube, and pretty much nothing else.
It's passable in reanimator if you're short on more fitting discard effects, but it would be way better as pretty much any discard outlet that gives you control over the window you discard in.
Why are you so obsessed with this? This is only a very minor point in cube. If I use my turn 2 play to set up a turn 3 reanimation, I don't care a bit if the discard happens in my second turn or right before I cast my reanimation spell on turn three.
Also, both Pale Rider of Trostad and Bloodrage Brawler are great in reanimator decks. They provide early defense against aggro decks, both giving you time to set up your reanimation and making it harder for your opponent to race your reanimated fatty.* They increase the clock by beating down alongside your reanimated fatty. They allow you to use Recurring Nightmare as a turn 3 reanimation spell by being both discard outlet and sacrifice fodder.
I am happy that red now has a bunch of discard enablers, allowing players to draft Rakdos reanimator instead of always defaulting to Dimir. I already run Tormenting Voice and a few other enablers in red. At 600 cards, I could use a few more though, so I welcome a card like Bloodrage Brawler.
* Btw, this is a thing that very few discard enablers do and the reason why I actually like PRoT more than Oona's Prowler and Heir of Falkenrath in reanimator decks.
I was going to mention the defense thing as well. Even Heir of Falkenrath does this (though it trades versus offering long term defense). Great thing about Heir though is it offers 3 evasive damage later in the game if it's still around. So I do think it's the better card in reanimator.
What I really disliked about Pale Rider was Skulk. It's a super trashy form of evasion. Might as well just be a vanilla creature that big things can't be bothered to block. Flavor wise, skulk is cool. Mechanically, it blows.
This new dude is bigger though. 4 power means it wrecks a lot more stuff that can try and block it (like wall of omens). So it's a better threat than Pale Rider and that might end up being the key difference.
This card is a slam dunk for my giant cube, and I'm really happy to see so much discourse over it, even if the consensus is that it's probably not good enough for "normal" cubes. There's so much five color support (especially that white now has embalm) for graveyard decks of all varieties that it only takes a little bit of effort to make it a tangible subtheme in the cube (most people already run a dedicated reanimator strategy).
I think this is one of the better enablers in a color that doesn't have as much love as the others. BUT unless you are able to utilize the discard properly, this card is seldom worth it, as it is a straight 2 for one against you when they kill it. You guys also have super tight cubes, so it's pretty hard to make the cut, but I definitely like this more than Harsh Mentor as it has a lot more deckbuilding depth.
Controlling your discard is a real concern. There are a number of hate cards that can trump you--ooze, DRS, relic if you play it, new removal--on top of other decks playing reanimation spells. I'm not sure how 100% relevant it is, as there are only so many hate cards, but discarding the same turn your reanimate is ideal.
Why are you so obsessed with this? This is only a very minor point in cube. If I use my turn 2 play to set up a turn 3 reanimation, I don't care a bit if the discard happens in my second turn or right before I cast my reanimation spell on turn three.
Quote from Salmo »
Controlling your discard is a real concern. There are a number of hate cards that can trump you--ooze, DRS, relic if you play it, new removal--on top of other decks playing reanimation spells. I'm not sure how 100% relevant it is, as there are only so many hate cards, but discarding the same turn your reanimate is ideal.
This is only part of the reason. The bigger concern is not having the fatty in my hand yet. I can run out Heir, and then discard my fatty to it and reanimate the fatty on the turn I draw it. If my discard outlet is an ETB trigger instead, I have to sandbag it until I draw the big monster. Which means several things for me. First, it means that I need to pay the mana for both of my cards in the same turn (and with a card like Necromancy or Recurring Nightmare, that can mean needing 5 mana at once). Second, it means that I'm unable to defend my combo with protection because all my mana is being wrapped up into playing my 2-drop and my reanimation spell at the same time. If I want to spend my mana efficiently, protect my combo and/or reanimate a fatty as quickly as my curve will allow, I need to have control over the window I discard my cards in.
As you are fond of saying, it doesn't make you play bad Magic.
But this can. If it's the only 2-drop in your hand, it can trash your curve if you wait to play it, and it can be an awful play if you're priced into pitching a business spell to play it.
Even in black, which has all the graveyard interaction cards, not having control over the timing window of the discard is a huge disadvantage. In non-black colors, this drawback is even more significant.
Yes, if you meet the extremely specific and concurrent subset of conditions: it's the only two drop in your hand AND you have nothing else you can play AND there's no spell or land that you feel you can't do without AND you have nothing in hand that benefits in the graveyard; yes, then I will grant you that the drawback will be a pain and the card is then suboptimal
Fwiw, I don't think that's a crazy parlay at all.
A) By not playing the mutant on turn 2, you also sacrificed the OPTION of having another card that you could have played on turn 2 instead. Not all turn 2 plays are interchangable. There's an opportunity cost for you waiting to play the card. Even if you do have something to do on turn 2 AND have the mutant in hand.
B) "no spell or land you can do without", doesn't really describe the cost of the card disadvantage. If you discard a card that you could do without to the mutant, but a gore-house chain walker would have won you that same game, the mutant didn't gain any value by it's power in excess of it's discard drawback.
C) In a heavy red agro deck, I think you wont have a card in your hand that has value in the graveyard the vast majority of the time. Unlike a black agro deck.
Why is it an awful play? I am maybe sacrificing something I'd be playing 2+ turns down the road for more power now. That is exactly the philosophy of aggro decks.
IMO, this is the best argument I've heard for this card. Sacrificing a card to have more threat now. And if you build a deck that also gets advantage from the discard, you are that much more ahead.
Again, this is where I feel Pale Rider fell a little short. 3 power on a 2 mana creature is not really above the curve. So without synergy, the card felt underwhelming. The 4th power on this new card might be enough though. I'm really starting to come around on this guy after all the discussion.
So I ran into a scenario with this guy that I felt really put an exclamation point on how bad the forced discard can be. Bloodbraid Elf flipping this guy with only 1 card in hand (some reach I was saving so discarding was really bad). Wasn't a fan. It's a corner case, but pretty much anything else would have been better in that situation.
Definitely looking forward to more feedback on this guy. My limited experience (which doesn't mean anything) was shooting this thing with a Trial of Zeal which felt really good since he discarded a Heart-Piercer Manticore to this. On one hand it did get my removal, but on the other that was a 2 for 1 (not factoring in Embalm). So....jury is out.
I think people are thinking too much about the madness route - I've found successful red decks have much higher curves in eternal formats with the top end with GloryBringer, Chandra, Bedlam Reveler, Hazoret etc. They try to some the burn + earlier drops to chip in damage and curve into 4-5 drops that can close out the opponent at 7-10.
I'm in the process of shaving some of the 1 drops:
- FireDrinker
- Jackal Pup
- Falkrenrath
+ Bloodrage Brawerl
+ Ash Phoneix
+ Bedlam Reveler
I'm hoping to slightly improve pack relevancy with red aggro.
Similarly, I've found the 4th point of power to be incredibly important from playing Putrid Leech - cards like Wall of omen, Brimaz, Thing in the Ice, Yawgmoth, Restoration Angel, Felidar Guardian, Hero of BladeHold, Bone Crusher Giant, etc. (However, Putrid Leech was cut for restrictive mana costs)
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Ya, I still like Bloodrage Brawler, does double duty in a couple non-aggro builds. It's not a staple or anything, but it's a 4 power two drop with a good size butt. I do run Anger as part of a small fires package, since I have a lot of discard outlets which makes it commonly into a free Fervor, and that's particularly nice with it. If not, I can often find an off-colour card or surplus land to live without. I don't see the Brawler run in every cube but it's a decent dude.
At the end of the day, it's not my loss, and there's not much point in trying to convince one who has already made their mind up. The reasons to run it are there for folks to see, so if someone else reads it, wants to give it a go, and gets mileage from it, then job's a good 'un. Whether it's of use to a particular group or not we have a bunch of good red 2 drops of late, so there are plenty of other configurations of two drops that will work just fine. So each to their own.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Clearly it's working for your group. I'm trying to explain the reasons why it didn't work for us.
Amen.
All the best.
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This. 100% this.
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Red on the other hand has only has Young Pyromancer as a Red 2 drop I like. High power is a big deal for red to get through blockers. And now that I am playing more graveyard stuff in red, the discard outlet is great option. Some people play firestorm but I don't care for that. I play gamble but I might be the only one on the forum who does. And my reanimator decks often have to worry about how aggressive my opponent is and a 4/3 to play on 2 is tremendous defense. This also seems to play well will Kolaghans command, bot hto get back somethign you discarded or to be able to get back this guy and play it in the same turn.
I would play this over Vexing Devil as Devil is awful. Its pretty much just R: 4 damage to target player with downside for when they can deal with it and let it resolve, which is not a cube card.
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From my personal experience with both of these cards, I am going to include Bloodrage Brawler and I expect him to be decent. A bit more of a role player than Pyromancer, but just as deserving of a slot in my cube as overrated goggles guy.
Btw, could someone change the tilte of this thread, please? The English name of this minotaur turned out to be Bloodrage Brawler.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
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http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
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One of the best parts of cube design is that if/when you mess up with card choices, you always just get to change things up again. I'd run Pale Rider of Trostad again if I were you, just to be sure how it fits with your playgroup. Why live with regret when you can just know for sure?
I was never a fan of YP in cube. I actually like Aether Chaser more than Young Pyromancer. And I think outside of a dedicated spells matter deck, they are pretty much equally powerful.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
And that's the problem with this red creature. Not only is it only barely playable in decks like reanimator (which are largely off-color) ...but the primary use for the card (aggressive graveyard-centric decks) aren't found in its color.
If you want to play a red card that works well in reanimator and other graveyard-centric red decks (like Welder/Daretti/Feldon shells), play Tormenting Voice. The decks where this beatdown creature/discard outlet hybrid shine don't exist in red, unless you create them (with cards like Anger, Fiery Temper and other red Madness cards). This creature would be almost exclusively a recursion-aggro support card in my cube, and pretty much nothing else.
And Young Pyromancer is a bonkers card.
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Also, both Pale Rider of Trostad and Bloodrage Brawler are great in reanimator decks. They provide early defense against aggro decks, both giving you time to set up your reanimation and making it harder for your opponent to race your reanimated fatty.* They increase the clock by beating down alongside your reanimated fatty. They allow you to use Recurring Nightmare as a turn 3 reanimation spell by being both discard outlet and sacrifice fodder.
I am happy that red now has a bunch of discard enablers, allowing players to draft Rakdos reanimator instead of always defaulting to Dimir. I already run Tormenting Voice and a few other enablers in red. At 600 cards, I could use a few more though, so I welcome a card like Bloodrage Brawler.
* Btw, this is a thing that very few discard enablers do and the reason why I actually like PRoT more than Oona's Prowler and Heir of Falkenrath in reanimator decks.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
What I really disliked about Pale Rider was Skulk. It's a super trashy form of evasion. Might as well just be a vanilla creature that big things can't be bothered to block. Flavor wise, skulk is cool. Mechanically, it blows.
This new dude is bigger though. 4 power means it wrecks a lot more stuff that can try and block it (like wall of omens). So it's a better threat than Pale Rider and that might end up being the key difference.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
This card is a slam dunk for my giant cube, and I'm really happy to see so much discourse over it, even if the consensus is that it's probably not good enough for "normal" cubes. There's so much five color support (especially that white now has embalm) for graveyard decks of all varieties that it only takes a little bit of effort to make it a tangible subtheme in the cube (most people already run a dedicated reanimator strategy).
I think this is one of the better enablers in a color that doesn't have as much love as the others. BUT unless you are able to utilize the discard properly, this card is seldom worth it, as it is a straight 2 for one against you when they kill it. You guys also have super tight cubes, so it's pretty hard to make the cut, but I definitely like this more than Harsh Mentor as it has a lot more deckbuilding depth.
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This is only part of the reason. The bigger concern is not having the fatty in my hand yet. I can run out Heir, and then discard my fatty to it and reanimate the fatty on the turn I draw it. If my discard outlet is an ETB trigger instead, I have to sandbag it until I draw the big monster. Which means several things for me. First, it means that I need to pay the mana for both of my cards in the same turn (and with a card like Necromancy or Recurring Nightmare, that can mean needing 5 mana at once). Second, it means that I'm unable to defend my combo with protection because all my mana is being wrapped up into playing my 2-drop and my reanimation spell at the same time. If I want to spend my mana efficiently, protect my combo and/or reanimate a fatty as quickly as my curve will allow, I need to have control over the window I discard my cards in.
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Fwiw, I don't think that's a crazy parlay at all.
A) By not playing the mutant on turn 2, you also sacrificed the OPTION of having another card that you could have played on turn 2 instead. Not all turn 2 plays are interchangable. There's an opportunity cost for you waiting to play the card. Even if you do have something to do on turn 2 AND have the mutant in hand.
B) "no spell or land you can do without", doesn't really describe the cost of the card disadvantage. If you discard a card that you could do without to the mutant, but a gore-house chain walker would have won you that same game, the mutant didn't gain any value by it's power in excess of it's discard drawback.
C) In a heavy red agro deck, I think you wont have a card in your hand that has value in the graveyard the vast majority of the time. Unlike a black agro deck.
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IMO, this is the best argument I've heard for this card. Sacrificing a card to have more threat now. And if you build a deck that also gets advantage from the discard, you are that much more ahead.
Again, this is where I feel Pale Rider fell a little short. 3 power on a 2 mana creature is not really above the curve. So without synergy, the card felt underwhelming. The 4th power on this new card might be enough though. I'm really starting to come around on this guy after all the discussion.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
The list on cube cobra
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I personally don't think much about card disadvantage in cube as much with cards like Faithless Looting, Gamble as its pretty easy to recoup this loss with heavy hitters such as Wheel of Fortune, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Hazoret the Fervent or Bedlam Reveler.
I think people are thinking too much about the madness route - I've found successful red decks have much higher curves in eternal formats with the top end with GloryBringer, Chandra, Bedlam Reveler, Hazoret etc. They try to some the burn + earlier drops to chip in damage and curve into 4-5 drops that can close out the opponent at 7-10.
I'm in the process of shaving some of the 1 drops:
- FireDrinker
- Jackal Pup
- Falkrenrath
+ Bloodrage Brawerl
+ Ash Phoneix
+ Bedlam Reveler
I'm hoping to slightly improve pack relevancy with red aggro.
Similarly, I've found the 4th point of power to be incredibly important from playing Putrid Leech - cards like Wall of omen, Brimaz, Thing in the Ice, Yawgmoth, Restoration Angel, Felidar Guardian, Hero of BladeHold, Bone Crusher Giant, etc. (However, Putrid Leech was cut for restrictive mana costs)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: