Not creating this thread because I think he deserves a slot in anything but maybe huge cubes (1000+), but mostly for anyone who is a fan of niv mizzet and wants to include one in their izzet section. The competition with other Blue/Red 6 drops is so steep, and he is quite narrow, so don't recommend him in general, but....
I think this is the most competitive niv-mizzet for cube/standard, by quite a lot.
The built in protection is a big deal in higher powered formats, and in a deck with multiple cantrips, he can draw cards AND control the board at the same time.. Whereas RTR niv mizzet had to decide between the two.
Especially well suited to counter-spell control mirrors when slow rolled to a late turn.
If Izzet control is a viable deck in standard, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't a singleton main deck staple.
I wish his casting cost was less demanding, but I do appreciate that he feels more like a true improvement to OG niv-mizzet- a better job than dracogenius, imo.
It’s a pity that he’s so uncastable, because he’s otherwise the best Niv by a long shot. He’s like a Ruric Thar that helps you instead of punishing you and utterly demolishes your opponent if you ever get to untap.
Actually, I love playing him in standard, and so I tried him in the cube, and my players love him, and they have not had any problems casting him on curve. My Cube is 405, cards with a full set of duals, shocks, fetches, a city of brass, and a couple of fixing artifacts.
I mean, he is not splash-able, but izzet decks in my cube play him easily.
No interest. There are two other playable Niv-Mizzets when you decrease the power level enough to consider this, and nothing about this one justifies the cost. Dominus of Fealty on the other hand is great in my cube, and the casting cost is surprisingly versatile.
I was admittedly a skeptic of this card at first due to the extremely specific and restrictive mana-cost (just like everybody else here). That said, I have watched enough of him in standard to see that once casting him isn't an issue, he almost acts as a (more?) powerful Consecrated Sphinx, which is very elite company to be in. Once you can cast him he WILL enter play (barring something like Venser, Shaper Savant), and he will at least cantrip (barring a Shriekmaw style creature). If allowed to run wild, he can very easily eclipse the game-impact of other six-drops like Wurmcoil Engine or the Titans. Am I being being a tad hyperbolic? Perhaps. Long story short though, he is not a low-power level card at the very least if you can stomach the very restrictive cost.
From my very limited sample, it should be at best versus blue based decks because not counterable but is very weak to Control Magic Effects in which case you do not even draw a card. And to a lesser extent clone effects are problematic too.
Last time I cast it, it got stolen by Sower of Temptation which completely wrecked me.
No interest. There are two other playable Niv-Mizzets when you decrease the power level enough to consider this, and nothing about this one justifies the cost.
The other niv mizzet's are much lower in power level than this one
I was admittedly a skeptic of this card at first due to the extremely specific and restrictive mana-cost (just like everybody else here). That said, I have watched enough of him in standard to see that once casting him isn't an issue, he almost acts as a (more?) powerful Consecrated Sphinx, which is very elite company to be in. Once you can cast him he WILL enter play (barring something like Venser, Shaper Savant), and he will at least cantrip (barring a Shriekmaw style creature). If allowed to run wild, he can very easily eclipse the game-impact of other six-drops like Wurmcoil Engine or the Titans. Am I being being a tad hyperbolic? Perhaps. Long story short though, he is not a low-power level card at the very least if you can stomach the very restrictive cost.
So, in a UR deck with perfect mana, couple signets/relic, a bunch of cheap cantrips and cheap counterspells (spell pierce, force of will), I think he may be even higher power level than titans/sphinx; By a little bit. However, if you lack cantrips or ways to protect him , his power level drops below that threshold, quite quickly.
Also, the titans , can be powered out fast by sol ring, mana vault etc, whereas Niv Mizzet cannot.
Those are a lot of conditions.... and it's not easy to fulfil those conditions consistently... So, I'd expect him to perform quite a bit worse than in constructed on average... Then you add the intense narrowness imposed by it's mana cost, and I can't justify a slot for him outside of fun. But glad you recognize the power!
I was admittedly a skeptic of this card at first due to the extremely specific and restrictive mana-cost (just like everybody else here). That said, I have watched enough of him in standard to see that once casting him isn't an issue, he almost acts as a (more?) powerful Consecrated Sphinx, which is very elite company to be in. Once you can cast him he WILL enter play (barring something like Venser, Shaper Savant), and he will at least cantrip (barring a Shriekmaw style creature). If allowed to run wild, he can very easily eclipse the game-impact of other six-drops like Wurmcoil Engine or the Titans. Am I being being a tad hyperbolic? Perhaps. Long story short though, he is not a low-power level card at the very least if you can stomach the very restrictive cost.
This is pretty much how he plays out in Vintage. That being said, being uncounterable is a much bigger deal in Vintage, and cube has a lot of non instant / sorcery ways to kill creatures like Oblivion Rings / Nekrataal effects. I think this Niv would be much more appealing in cube if there was more guaranteed value like Vintage where basically only instants can deal with Niv, and Force of Wills / Pyroblasts / Mental Missteps are all over the place.
I was admittedly a skeptic of this card at first due to the extremely specific and restrictive mana-cost (just like everybody else here). That said, I have watched enough of him in standard to see that once casting him isn't an issue, he almost acts as a (more?) powerful Consecrated Sphinx, which is very elite company to be in. Once you can cast him he WILL enter play (barring something like Venser, Shaper Savant), and he will at least cantrip (barring a Shriekmaw style creature). If allowed to run wild, he can very easily eclipse the game-impact of other six-drops like Wurmcoil Engine or the Titans. Am I being being a tad hyperbolic? Perhaps. Long story short though, he is not a low-power level card at the very least if you can stomach the very restrictive cost.
This is pretty much how he plays out in Vintage. That being said, being uncounterable is a much bigger deal in Vintage, and cube has a lot of non instant / sorcery ways to kill creatures like Oblivion Rings / Nekrataal effects. I think this Niv would be much more appealing in cube if there was more guaranteed value like Vintage where basically only instants can deal with Niv, and Force of Wills / Pyroblasts / Mental Missteps are all over the place.
Oh cool, didn't realize he was seeing vintage play, but makes sense if the mana is there. Seems like an unreal trump in control mirrors and can take out opposing mentors/delvers/pyromancers well.
If they don’t remove him almost instantly, you win. I have tested him a quite bit in standard and now in cube, He is not going anywhere.
Basically, if you untap with Niv-papa on the board, the game is over.
In my cube, between the colorless ramp, dual lands and how decks play out, by the time I can actually cast him I will certainly have more than 6 mana available. In which case I would rather cast Ugin, Or Emrakul, or a plethora of other large threats. I agree this card is good. It's just much better in constructed compared to cube.
I agree with that, but those threats are colorless. I can’t think of a better Izzet payoff than Niv.
My cube is 405, with 35 lands 31 of which are color fixing with lots of Mana Rocks. And Izzet leans heavily into spells Matter. I don’t feel like Niv is compeating for the same slot as with Ugin or Emrakul.
I encourage you to play test him. If you have the mana support, he is excellent.
Spoiler season has me hooked on Cube list tweaking, so necro’ing a card I’ve been looking at.
As KMAYER noted, this creature ended up being more powerful and playable than anyone expected in other formats. I played multiple copies at a Standard Pro Tour, and see him all the time in Vintage, for example. I also see him in some of the popular lists on Cube Cobra. Have people here tried him? Curious what the Cube mana calculations look like for casting him consistently (how many Izzet duals and/or Izzet rocks).
Edit: btw the thread title is spelled wrong, so it was tough to find with the search function.
Spoiler season has me hooked on Cube list tweaking, so necro’ing a card I’ve been looking at.
As KMAYER noted, this creature ended up being more powerful and playable than anyone expected in other formats. I played multiple copies at a Standard Pro Tour, and see him all the time in Vintage, for example. I also see him in some of the popular lists on Cube Cobra. Have people here tried him? Curious what the Cube mana calculations look like for casting him consistently (how many Izzet duals and/or Izzet rocks).
Edit: btw the thread title is spelled wrong, so it was tough to find with the search function.
We tried him and thought he would be also a serviceable reanimation target. Reanimation decks do not bother with it, they want something with more survivability and/or immediate impact. This made the card too narrow for us, it frequently tabled and rarely saw play.
It depends on your cube's power level and the types of cards/decks that tend to be popular among your group. I included this Niv in my lower power cube and he has overall been less powerful than he tended to be in standard at times, but exciting and fun enough that a few of my regulars have enjoying playing him in their Izzet decks. "Cube Blue Red" tends to be a popular archetype here, though.
Not creating this thread because I think he deserves a slot in anything but maybe huge cubes (1000+), but mostly for anyone who is a fan of niv mizzet and wants to include one in their izzet section. The competition with other Blue/Red 6 drops is so steep, and he is quite narrow, so don't recommend him in general, but....
I think this is the most competitive niv-mizzet for cube/standard, by quite a lot.
The built in protection is a big deal in higher powered formats, and in a deck with multiple cantrips, he can draw cards AND control the board at the same time.. Whereas RTR niv mizzet had to decide between the two.
Especially well suited to counter-spell control mirrors when slow rolled to a late turn.
If Izzet control is a viable deck in standard, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't a singleton main deck staple.
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I mean, he is not splash-able, but izzet decks in my cube play him easily.
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Last time I cast it, it got stolen by Sower of Temptation which completely wrecked me.
The other niv mizzet's are much lower in power level than this one
So, in a UR deck with perfect mana, couple signets/relic, a bunch of cheap cantrips and cheap counterspells (spell pierce, force of will), I think he may be even higher power level than titans/sphinx; By a little bit. However, if you lack cantrips or ways to protect him , his power level drops below that threshold, quite quickly.
Also, the titans , can be powered out fast by sol ring, mana vault etc, whereas Niv Mizzet cannot.
Those are a lot of conditions.... and it's not easy to fulfil those conditions consistently... So, I'd expect him to perform quite a bit worse than in constructed on average... Then you add the intense narrowness imposed by it's mana cost, and I can't justify a slot for him outside of fun. But glad you recognize the power!
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This is pretty much how he plays out in Vintage. That being said, being uncounterable is a much bigger deal in Vintage, and cube has a lot of non instant / sorcery ways to kill creatures like Oblivion Rings / Nekrataal effects. I think this Niv would be much more appealing in cube if there was more guaranteed value like Vintage where basically only instants can deal with Niv, and Force of Wills / Pyroblasts / Mental Missteps are all over the place.
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Oh cool, didn't realize he was seeing vintage play, but makes sense if the mana is there. Seems like an unreal trump in control mirrors and can take out opposing mentors/delvers/pyromancers well.
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When cast, he is going to hit the board. Worst case, is he removed immediately, and you draw a card, and deal a damage.
If they don’t remove him almost instantly, you win. I have tested him a quite bit in standard and now in cube, He is not going anywhere.
Basically, if you untap with Niv-papa on the board, the game is over.
In my cube, between the colorless ramp, dual lands and how decks play out, by the time I can actually cast him I will certainly have more than 6 mana available. In which case I would rather cast Ugin, Or Emrakul, or a plethora of other large threats. I agree this card is good. It's just much better in constructed compared to cube.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
My cube is 405, with 35 lands 31 of which are color fixing with lots of Mana Rocks. And Izzet leans heavily into spells Matter. I don’t feel like Niv is compeating for the same slot as with Ugin or Emrakul.
I encourage you to play test him. If you have the mana support, he is excellent.
As KMAYER noted, this creature ended up being more powerful and playable than anyone expected in other formats. I played multiple copies at a Standard Pro Tour, and see him all the time in Vintage, for example. I also see him in some of the popular lists on Cube Cobra. Have people here tried him? Curious what the Cube mana calculations look like for casting him consistently (how many Izzet duals and/or Izzet rocks).
Edit: btw the thread title is spelled wrong, so it was tough to find with the search function.
We tried him and thought he would be also a serviceable reanimation target. Reanimation decks do not bother with it, they want something with more survivability and/or immediate impact. This made the card too narrow for us, it frequently tabled and rarely saw play.
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